IMPORTANT Notice About Defamation and Legal Letters I Get Often

[Cricket]

Kelly, that is ridiculous, that people can't express an opinion on their OB, by name, without being threatened with a lawsuit! Unbelievable! The letter sounds like a "scare tactic" to me, though. I really don't think he has much of a leg to stand on, legally. I think he's just trying to find a way to get people to stop talking negatively about him, and this was the best way he could come up with.

Is there anyone here who knows the actual laws on this topic? I thought defamation of character would have to be maliciously spreading untrue information about someone with the intent to ruin their character.

[BellyBelly]

Yes my lawyer has suggested against sticking it out - because while it has to be untrue for defamation - how are we going to prove it? It's one person against the other and would have to go to court and be costly, sadly not something that I am willing to do, it will involve time and money...

While its on BB and possibly resulting in loss of business / income, then it's grounds for them to sue me! Noice huh....

[Schmickers]

I truly think you should stick it out, Kelly, although I do understand that time constraints, and the stress, make that an undesirable option.

I don't honestly see how you can be held responsible for the comments of others, simply because you have provided them with a forum to make those comments.

Oh - Hoobley, great post.

[~Leasha~]

S'if anyone would say bad stuff about BB Kelly!

I think this is really stupid, especially the fact that it keeps happening! So what next, Ob's are going to write letters saying that not only can we not share stories and let someone know that Dr XYZ probably isn't the best person for what we need but we can't name Obs who are good because it might result in loss of business for the bad Obs who aren't named?!?! (Maybe I should edit that out... don't want to give them more fuel!!!!!!!!).

Reason number 657899 for why we should all use midwives instead

[River]

Such a two pronged topic this really I think.

I think it's just awful that you get a legal letter to address this straight up - whatever happened to him emailing you directly and asking nicely first eh? It's like he's gone running to Mummy because the kids teased him or something. I don't think that if people have a genuine gripe about someone's professionalism that it should be censored.

However the internet can be an insidious thing really. How are we to know that this person is telling the truth? How are we to know that they don't just have a random personal grudge against the person and have found a good way to hurt them. Whereas its unlikely, it could happen, so I can see the need to stop the naming of people.

Additionally, did the complainant let the OB know of their issues at all? Has this come out of left field in the doctors eyes? Without getting feedback from his patients, he might think that he's doing a bang up job. It must be terrible to come accross something on the internet you had no prior knowledge was an issue at all. I agree that from the complaints is where the doctors will learn to improve themselves, but on an online forum is not the right way to address these complaints at all.

Kelly, can you imagine if you googled your name, or a friend did, and came across a nasty post on another forum saying that you were a crap birth attendant, that you were mean and rude and tried to inflict your natural birthing ideals upon a woman, put pressure and stress on the day and made her feel guilty for accepting interventions. That anyone would be nuts to use you as a doula, and infact that doulas are crap and anyone who uses one is setting themselves up for a disappointing birthing experience. Wouldn't that just SUCK. You know it's not true, and so do your clients you have been to, and it might have been someones experience in their eyes (AS IF! you are TOTALLY not like that at all), but you have never heard anything about it to rectify it or debrief the person.

Would that be okay? NO! I think your response might be pretty close on the response of this OB to be honest. Especially if the owner of the forum were a very loud advocate for the opposition of the doula profession.

Does that make sense? I think its easy to call the OB a child and make out like he's over reacting, but in reality the internet can be very dangerous and I think everyone is well within their rights to protect their name on the internet.



Bec, you crack me up lovey!

[BellyBelly]

True, but I wouldn't go and get a lawyer! I would want to speak to the client and asked why she felt that way and try to resolve it. Then if that didn't help - surely I didn't do a bad enough job to have someone get that angry LOL - then I would ask the forum owner to take it down as it was untrue. But I wouldn't go straight to the law - customer service and resolving the issue as to not happen again is so much more better than customer putting-off!

[River]

I totally agree. You have way more rationalism than the total overreaction of legal action. Surely people could have a bit more respect for you and just ask first?? Would save them a lawyers bill too wouldn't it LOL?

eta: My main point was on the general idea of internet censorship btw .

[Onyx]

River, I can see the point you're making and to a certain extent I agree with them but like kelly I don't think that running to the lawyer is an appropraite reaction.
If it were me I would think that a better course of action would be to join the forum with my user name being Dr BlahBlah and post to say sorry, I wasn't aware that this was a problem, please call me so we can discuss it. Or whatever was relevant without disclosing Dr patient confidentiality.
That way anyone who googles me could then see my response and make up their own mind.

It really disgusts me when someone's first step is litigeous rather than seeking a resolution personally.

*snap* lol

[BellyBelly]

ikwym River... Wouldn't that be so refreshing to see an Ob come in and politely join in on the conversation? I mean if I have to stress politely because they will no doubt get ticked off when we censor their posts if they are not polite which I could so imagine. But I think if they too responsibility and stepped up to the plate then we'd all have so much more respect.

[Tobily]

I'd like to see a few obstetricians (or even people training to be an obstetrician) appear in forums like this to address some of the broader concerns people have. Obviously it's not the place for resolving individual grievances, but so much is said here about obstetricians and the way they practice...I find it a bit odd actually that you never see anyone even attempt to explain where they're coming from or explain to us why it is that they think we are wrong.

I think a well moderated forum like BB would present an ideal opportunity for them to do that....and I for one would be receptive to hearing their point of view. As I'm sure many others here would be.

[mrscricket]

I can understand someone getting upset if a poster had written a nasty comment without having the proof to back it up, or just generally being nasty (somewhere along the lines of 'my doctor was a silly poo-poo head and he has bad breath ) but if it is genuine constructive critisim, then they need to take it on board and deal with it. I think it is so important to be able to get advice and opinions off other people when choosing a service - whether it be a doctor, a plumber or a new brand of washing machine!
When I was pregnant, my gp gave me a list of doctors available to me and being a first time mum, I had no idea so i asked her opinion on who I should go for. She said "Go with Dr ____ . He plays on my mixed netball team". And that was that. like Belly Belly as soooooo important for giving people the option to choose wisely and make imformed decisions.

[bon]

Doesn't this person have better things to do than trawl parenting websites looking for negative comments? Tells you a lot about the character of this OB that instead of trying to deal with the issue constructively, by perhaps emailing or otherwise trying to contact the client involved and resolving the issues she raised, he immediately goes to his lawyers. What he should be doing is taking on board what was said about him and trying to improve how he practices, not trying to sue anyone who has a negative experience. GRrrrrrr...makes me mad.

[rosehannah]

After reading everyones posts and thinking on the matter my feelings are that I don't think it's a good idea to post OB's names when giving negative feedback as they don't get the chance to defend themselves unless they are trawling the site. I think that if an issue is bad enough that you feel you need to post about it then the OB should be made aware of it, not just find out about it on a parenting site. I think singing the praise of the good OB is a much more effective tool in helping us find great care, after all we are trying to find the good OB's not the bad ones.

[onlyone]

OB's need to get over themselves.

Their is so little information available when it comes to makes such an important decision who is going to deliver out babies. Why can we have virtual tours of hotels, test drives of cars, open houses etc etc.

But when it comes to choosing on OB we are presented with a list of names when taking tours of hospitals, recently I have called many OB's and found that it is often far to much trouble to even mail out the fees schedule.

I then tried to book a pre pregnancy appointment to meet someone on my shortlist but was told it would be a 4 month wait as I was not pregnant. Really????

We the clients of these overpaid people must start to demand more and tell them what we want.

Simply word of mouth and forums are not good enough.

[BellyBelly]

Got yet another one. Please please please keep this in mind folks. You know how I feel about it, but you gotta understand that the Obs, friends, family and their clients (I dont call them patients, pregnancy is not an illness!) have eyes here all the time... you never know when someone may be reporting your post to an Obstetrician. So the best we can do is rave about the great Obs, and not even mention the ones we've had bad experiences with. I think the number of legal letters I get about women's bad experiences just goes to show that this sort of care really does have it's flaws and is not the be all and end all.

Kelly would it be defamation if people with a bad-Ob story to tell posted their experience in an online (non-BB) blog and then linked the post into a thread here? THat way you wouldn't be "hosting" the criticism? I would be happy to email gmail invites to anyone who needs them to set up eblogger blogs for one-off debriefs of this sort. It seems pretty dire that those who are happy can sing from the rooftops and those who have been emotionally and physically injured need to shut up (not directing that at you! I know you know it sucks!).

Bx

[BellyBelly]

I know what you mean... and yes as long as I am not the publisher of the information I wont get in trouble.

[tenar]

This is an issue in online forums all over the world, in a great many different contexts.

It's a case of the law not having caught up with technology and fundamental problems with the technology itself, and the situation exists in many countries.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of the internet, it is extremely easy to hide who you are when making comments of any nature in forums like this (or forums about anything). So it's easy for commercial competitors of any company (or any professional) to get online and make negative comments about someone or some product or some company. The people reading those comments might believe them and someone's business might suffer direly as a result in a situation where they had done nothing at all wrong. Since the biggest commercial competitors are the successful practitioners, this is actually more likely to happen to the best people in whatever the business is!

It is very easy to understand someone getting really upset, even to the point of consulting a lawyer about it, to read bad stuff about themselves, their company or their product in a forum when they can't even tell who is posting the comments. Most especially if that bad stuff is all lies.

I know that in BB people tend to trust each other and to trust each other's advice. It's a hard lesson to realise that we actually have no real way, short of all going to meet each other face to face, of knowing who the other people posting are, or what their motives might be. It's just one of those things about the internet.

I think the situation of not being able to "name and shame" companies or individuals that one has had a genuine bad experience with is a pain in the neck, but until the basic structure of the internet is changed to reduce the level of anonymity, the legal situation probably won't change. So we just got to live with it. It's the same everywhere.

One thing that many people don't realise is that if you have posted a negative comment online about some business or person and you can be identified (ie if you haven't used something like tor software to intentionally anonymise yourself), you are also are risk of being sued for defamation or libel or whatever the legal term is. BellyBelly's rules about this are protecting us as well as the forum.

If you post negative comments in your own blog, you will be exposing whoever hosts the blog, as well as yourself, to the risk of being sued. I would be extremely cautious about doing this. It might be satisfying, but it probably isn't worth the expense and hassle of a legal battle about it.

(I've run harder into this stuff in another forum in a totally different context and while it makes me angry that things are the way they are, I also understand why that has to be.)