Dont want to immunise, but.....(Micheal??)

[Eluned]

Originally Posted by Kitt3n

you know i have really thought about this, and if the whooping cough vaccine was worth the risk then there wouldnt be any around, because it would have worked!

Just a thought, but as more people are doing their research and choosing not to immunise, do you think the whooping cough rates are higher because more people are not immunised?

Adults can carry the whooping cough virus without even knowing it. What we think is just a cough, could be whooping cough and we risk passing it on to our kids.

[Pretty Butterfly]

Laranna, the studies showed a rapid increase in Whooping cough after the vac was bought out. And it is still rising!

And theoretically, if only 2% of the population aren't vac'ed, then 98% of people with whooping cough were vac'd anyway... so it cant work that well....I didn't see the point of putting all those chemicals in my daughter,... I just keep her away from anyone that is the slightest bit unwell...

[hipmummy]

The reason why whooping cough is still around is that a lot of people don't realise that they are only immune for 10 years. 80% of babies who get whooping cough contract it from their mother. It would be great if you could protect your daughter by just keeping her away from anyone who is sick but in reality it's not the case. I am not trying to convince you either way as I agree that you need to make an informed decision, please just make sure that you obtain your information from true evidenced based articles - not scaremonger websites.

[Pretty Butterfly]

Nope, I got all my information from proper clinical studies.

"It would be great if you could protect your daughter by just keeping her away from anyone who is sick but in reality it's not the case"

Actually, it is. To get whooping cough you need to be with someone who has it, for at least a couple of hours, and be coughing and spitting and so forth, which is why it is rife in child care and hospitals.. My baby doesn't go anywhere without being in my sling, and isn't in care. If any of her siblings were sick, I'd keep them away... many of unvac'ed kids never catch anything, because there parents are careful.. If infected people stayed away from everyone else, and didn't spread it, then it wouldn't be around. I find people and parents who still go to care, school and work while sick are much more responsible for spreading any diesese than an unvac'd person!!

JMO of course....theres not much chance of my unvac'ed daughter giving anyone anything...but the rest of the vac'd society?? well.....they are the 98% spreading it...

[Kitt3n]

I have to agree with PB here - with this "epidemic", stats that 98% are immunised - it just doesnt sit right.

ANd I would much rather my little bundle to not have nasty heavy metals injected into her beautiful little body!

google thimerserol.............

[Eluned]

The problem is though, that we might try and keep our kids away from infected people but it just doesn't happen. Eg, Dad goes off to work where his colleague shows up coughing and sneezing, passes it on to Dad. Dad comes home and passes it on to Mum and Mum passes it on to bub. PB, I agree that sick people should stay away from others, but they just don't and that sucks.

Like Hisista says, most adults are not immune to whooping cough and if they get it, they wouldn't even know for a couple of weeks, because it starts off with a runny nose which is the most infectious period.

I guess one has to weigh up whether the risk of immunising outweighs the risk of not immunising.

[Kitt3n]

Originally Posted by Laranna

I guess one has to weigh up whether the risk of immunising outweighs the risk of not immunising.

This is so true hun. I have absolutely nothing against immunisations - in theory. What concerns me is the preservatives and the heavy metals contained within those preservatives. I am also skeptical of live viruses being used in some newer vaccines.

But I dont think there is a real need for some vaccines - such as chicken pox, I think (JMO) this is more a vaccine for convenience for our modern day world- if you are a family with both working parents and a few kids you simply cant afford a few weeks off with each of them! Same as the flu vac (which i just think will lead to a super flu bug if we all dont build up natural immunities) ........... the list goes on

[Inanna]

I'm not well enough to post in a legible way. But Janie - you are right of course. Babies have animmune system - it just takes time to develop so I really don't understand that comment.

I will BBL when I am not dopey on meds...

[Pretty Butterfly]

Originally Posted by Laranna

I guess one has to weigh up whether the risk of immunising outweighs the risk of not immunising.

So true.

But when such a high percentage, (the 98% of vac'ed folks) still get chicken pox,whooping cough, flu's etc.. I just dont see the point in having a potentially dangerous and very heavily chemical vac,(including animal blood products, formaldahyde and mercury) and then also the diesese anyway...

Its a catch 22, and I rethink and research each time her vac date comes around!!

One major sway for me was my mums work mate. He is microbiologist, (specialising in some blood thingy) and flatly refuses all vac's, for himself and kids. He is supposed to get regular vacs due to his job, but doesn't. He told mum if I showed you what goes in it, you would never put it your blood stream, and definatly not a babies.


I wonder if anyone can help me here too.... I would like figures on what percentage of Vaccinated kids still get childhood dieseses... like chiken pox,whooping cough etc compaired to unvaccinated kids??

Everyone I know has had chicken pox, and I got it real bad, and was vaccinated.

Just how effective are they?? If you are around someone with a diesese, and you had 2 kids there, one immunised, one not, what is the chance of each child catching it too???

I have just never heard of a sick child playing with a healthy vac'ed kid, and the kid not get sick because of vac. Maybe due to being clean and careful, but from an actual vac?? As kids, if one kid got something, we all got it anyway...

Did that make any sense?? I know what I mean....

[Eluned]

PB, I've had a quick google and the closest info I could find was the following article from the JAMA on the vaccination org au website. The numbers are an American study, but I guess Aust would probably be similar.

Also, I totally understand what you're saying, why vaccinate if you're going to get sick anyway? It's that reason why I don't get a flu shot every year. Although, I think it is good for certain types of people to get the flu shot, such as chronic asthmatics, the elderly, etc, etc.

More food for thought, either way unvaccinated children will still get sick just as vaccinated children will, but will the unvaccinated children suffer more from the illness than the vaccinated children...?

Exemptors from vaccination also increase risk for some vaccinated children.

CHICAGO -- Children who are exempt from immunization for religious or philosophical reasons have a higher risk of measles and pertussis, according to an article in the December 27 issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association. Parents and public health personnel should be aware of the risks involved in not vaccinating children and the potential impact on the community, the authors add.

Daniel R. Feikin, M.D., M.S.P.H., of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, and colleagues conducted a population-based, retrospective cohort study to evaluate whether personal exemption from immunization is associated with the risk of measles and pertussis at individual and community levels. They collected data on standardized forms regarding all reported measles and pertussis cases among children aged 3 to 18 in Colorado during 1987-1998.

According to background information cited in the study, 48 states allow exemptions from mandatory vaccination for religious reasons, and 15 states allow philosophical exemptions. Exemptions based on medical grounds are allowed in all states. A recent study showed that the risk of measles infection during 1985-1992 in the United States was, on average, 35 times greater in children with personal exemptions compared with vaccinated children.

In Colorado, the percentage of school-aged children who were unvaccinated as a result of personal exemptions in 1994 was 1.4 percent, more than twice the national average of 0.6 percent.

The authors assessed the relative risk of measles and pertussis among exemptors and vaccinated children, the association between incidence rates among vaccinated children and the frequency of exemptors in Colorado counties, the association between school outbreaks and the frequency of exemptors in schools, and the risk associated with exposure to an exemptor in measles outbreaks.

During 1987-1998, there were 45 cases of measles among exemptors aged 3-18 and 137 cases among similarly aged vaccinated children. From 1996-1998, there were 36 cases of pertussis among exemptors and 346 among vaccinated children aged 3-18. But since the total number of exemptor children was much smaller than the total number of vaccinated children, their risks of these infections were much greater.

"Exemptors were 22.2 times more likely to acquire measles and 5.9 times more likely to acquire pertussis than vaccinated children," they write.

"In children of day care and primary school age [age 3 to 10 years], in whom contact rates and susceptibility are higher, these risks were approximately 62-fold and 16-fold greater among exemptors for measles and pertussis, respectively," they continue.

The authors measured the impact of children with personal exemptions on community risk. "After adjusting for confounders, the frequency of exemptors in a county was associated with the incidence rate of measles [1.6 times greater risk] and pertussis [1.9 times greater risk] in vaccinated children," they write. Also, "schools with pertussis outbreaks had more exemptors (mean 4.3 percent of students) than schools without outbreaks (1.5 percent of students)," they continue. "At least 11 percent of vaccinated children in measles outbreaks acquired infection through contact with an exemptor."

The authors assert that the decision to forgo vaccination must balance individual rights with social responsibility. "If all vaccine-preventable diseases were confined to the individual (e.g., tetanus), the consequences of forgoing vaccination would fall only on the child whose parents made the decision. Most vaccine-preventable diseases, however, are spread from person to person. Therefore, the health of any individual in the community is intricately dependent on the health of the rest of that community," they write.

[Peg]

Originally Posted by Janie

Surely babies have some sort of immune system happening before 6 months???? I know the immune system is a very complex thing, but that just seems wrong to me, that they have none????

Im sorry, i probably should have said they have an 'undeveloped' immune system.

Just like the lungs on a premature baby, they dont function 100% until they are full term

The immune system is similar, its there but it doesnt begin to function until a certain age (approx 6months)

All the babies antibodies come from the mothers milk in the early stages.

[Lulu]

After my own research I decided that I didn't really mind if my child DID catch measles, mumps or chicken pox (and that's pretty much all they vacced for back then - babies anyway). Its one way to immunise, if they do catch it when they are young, so they don't have to suffer the implications of getting it as adults.

I can't seem to catch CP despite multiple exposures, and none of the kids have had it so far either. Both little ones have had mild cases of measles and mumps (and offers for other kids to come and play with them during this time!). They may catch CP too, but I won't immu for my own convenience.

I do review my decision every now and again - the quiet incubation period of most things worries me too sometimes, but then again I remember that all the kids in dp's family have caught CP etc WITH immu, so I can't see the point...

[~Saram~]

Hon, I know just what you mean, Ari got her first lot of vax against whooping cough, dip and tetnus but we aren't getting the other ones, she can choose when she is older if she wants the german measles.

My DS has autism and I asked our dr if he knew of any studies involving a case with family history of autism and a sibling not showing any signs and any vax reactions. He advised me that he would NOT get his child vax in this case. Having said that I live in a town with 93% vacc rate which means we have an awesome community buffer where very little of the active disease is spread.

Having said that we had a measles outbreak last year and it freaked me out! I questioned my decisions and um and ahhed but in the end we just used common sense and hygine and she didn't get it. I have some info on homeo pathics I can pm you if you like?

[Inanna]

I am back though just dosed on panadeine forte so my response may not be up to par.

To establish my position - I do not vaccinate my babies. My oldest DD had a severe reaction to her immunisations (whooping cough was not included) - she now has aspergers which may or may not be related to this. (I suspect not as she was very "aspy" in her early babyhood ) I live in a rural area and tetnus spores are still found int he ground up here. I immunise at school entry for tetanus, measles, mumps and chicken pox.

I am a nurse and I have witnessed child hood illnesses - and despite common thought they are not necessarily "mild". The public has a misconception that measles, mumps, chicken pox are very mild illnesses that have few if any problems. This can be very far from the triuth. Deciding not to immunise should not be done without facing the reality that contracting these illnesses can and does present a risk to life and can affect quality of life.
I have also travelled to third world countries and have seen first hand what it looks like when the "herd" are not vaccinated.

We are living in a country where approx 40% of the population are immunised. This affords a cover to the rest of us who are not.

I fully understand why parents immunise their babies - and I understand why parents don't. I just ask that people make INFORMED choices. Contracting the illness is a form of vaccination - albiet a very dangerous one. Measles followed by meningitis is not pretty and it happens. Whooping cough kills children still in this country. Some of those that die are too young to be immunised.

I am a fence sitter. I sit on the fence as I have seen far too many reactions to immunisation that scare the brown stuff out of me. I have also watched children die of complications of immunisable diseases...

We need to be less careless with our herd. We need to restrict our babies to who they are subjected to. Shopping centres in strollers = sitting baby duck. Whooping cough is highly contagious. When there is an outbreak we need to be very aware. Children should be kept home when they have runny snotty noses - this is the first sign of many communicable immunisable diseases. We need to use preventative herbs, vitamins and wholesome foods.

It's a really tough decision but it needs to be made not out of fear, but out of education and intuition.

I had the wrath of the Gods on me when I refused immunisation of Imogen (very rare for a baby to leave NICU unimmunised). She was neutropenic so thank Goodness I listened to my intuition. So far so good - she has had her share of chest infections but touch wood no "childhood illnesses".

Again, read read read - educate yourself and make a decision from a clear place not a fearful one. Goodluck!

[Lulu]

Oh chicky babe, that's why I'm reviewing things constantly. That's why I didn't want to go back to work, cos I INSIST of having the kids home with a snotty nose. I don't treat measles/mumps like a cold - I nurse them through it thoroughly, but felt worried that my 2 had played with a friends baby whilst it would have been incubating (measles), she chooses to vac but the child was due the next week.

I kept my lot away from pools, childcare etc till pretty much over 12 months, eek yuck on shopping centres!

I have to think some more because my girls seem to have very robust immune systems but my boy does not.

Ach, its hard but they are all over 3 now. I might think about whooping cough for the boy.

I dunno

[AliBaby]

Just letting you know i had shingles as an adult as i wasnt vaccinated for chicken pox and it was incredibly painful, it chooses one area of your nervous system to attack. Mine caused nerve damage to my shoulder so bad that i couldnt wear a bra strap on that shoulder, chest, neck area. For 2 months and couldnt carry a handbag on that shoulder without pain for 3 months and also know someone who went blind from it as they got shingles on their face. Pretty scary. The worst thing is I can get it again if my immune system gets really low and stress levels get high!! Just food for thought on that vax

i'm going to watch channel 7 sunday night at 6:30 for the Sunday night show that is going to have the mum who just lost her bubba to whopping cough on it.

[Lulu]

Don't ever watch channel 7 if you actually want real news or facts though!

[Inanna]

Yes, there are definitely awful side affects to these illnesses. Just as there are side affects to the vaccinations...

All needs to be weighed and balanced. It is very difficult to take the emotion out of such an emotive subject. I'ts a tough one.

I have seen babies die from whooping cough. I have also seen dreadful reactions to said vaccination.