The smacking debate

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I don't have a problem with smacking to teach discipline, but having said that, it should never be done in anger, it should be an absolute last resort and there is definitely a difference between smacking to startle the child and abuse. I have only smacked my daughter twice and it did work but this was only after trying every other possible tool I could think of and we remained calm throughout it. I was smacked as a child and have no emotional/physical side effects..and in all honesty as we got older we didn't get smacked because we just knew when we had gone too far. So although I don't have a problem with smacking for discipline..it needs to be an absolute last resort and should definitely not cause injury (it also needs to be done in context..don't smack for everything you don't want them to do, only very serious things otherwise it won't work and could possible teach them it's ok to hit). Discipline is one of the hardest challenges a parent faces!

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ITA. I have smacked before. Especially Chase who likes to do stupid things like burn his hands on the oven and end up in emergency, pull the oil heater on himself, run into the middle of the bus mall and almost get hit by a bus on the kurb. In those situations he has got a smack because I can not risk him doing them again (well not the burning himself thing but when he went to touch hot again I smacked and said no HOT)
However these occasions are rare, not daily or weekly or even monthly. I can't remember the last time I smacked.
We use the corner here with great effect. Even when we are out, if they are naughty they get a warning that if they don't stop it will be the corner and usually we don't get to that stage. However, if we do, they go face a wall or corner somewhere. Believe it or not we don't get ANY remarks from passers by as you would if you smacked.

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When she came to the room with the wooden spoon she would ask me why I was getting the smack and I would tell her. Then I had to bend over and she would give me a firm smack on the bottom with the spoon and tell me not to do it again! I can't see anything wrong with that?!?!? It is the smack out in public to humiliate the child and the passing whack or grab that is abusive and destructive because you are instilling fear into your child. Also if you use your hand instead of an object your child will associate you with the pain, that is why you have to use an object like a wooden spoon, so that they know that if they do something wrong that spoon is going to smack them on the bottom and it is going to hurt. I can guarantee you that it stopped me from doing naughty things when I was a child.

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Firstly sounds like you stopped your behaviour out of fear of getting a smack, not because you knew the behaviour was bad. I think it is cruel to tell them when they get home they will get a smack. It is making them spend the whole time out worrying about what will happen when they get home. I know this because I have had many discussions with my mum who was always told "when your father gets home he will deal with you" and she would worry ALL day. (usually for no reason because he would either say not to worry or yell a bit)
Secondly it is illegal to smack a child with anything OTHER than your hand, so a object SHOULDN'T be used. You are only allowed to smack below the waist and you are not allowed to leave any marks.

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Ultimately i believe children will only behave as well as they are treated

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Unfortunately MummaB, if this was true... alot of people in shops would think that Matilda is abused. We don't talk when we are in the shops when she reacts, but it is hard work physically.

Hoobley... I have tried the bear hug as someone suggested it before as well. Unfortunately, when Matilda's sensory issues get to near melt down point, she resists touching of any form.

Just for those who haven't experienced it, children with sensory processing disorder/autism/Aspergers are very hard to diagnose before 6yrs old. So trips to the shops, and out & about can trigger meltdowns or "tantrums" which are uncontrollable. This can be seen as bad behaviour/bad parenting, but its not a behaviour issue in the end... it has nothing to do with parenting.

ETA: I'm posting here, because I think sometimes when we see others, we tend to judge... its a natural thing, but maybe we can see that sometimes there is a difference between someone who is struggling and someone who isn't.

Christy I was in the city once and saw a boy who was having a meltdown (looked like the biggest tantrum) and I knew straight away that something was up. The mother nearly cried when I came and started talking to her because everyone was just staring and making remarks. Some people are just so rude :(

Christy, I do think children can only behave as well as they are treated. They may not always behave this well, though. Think of it as a child is shown A-grade behaviour. They could, if they wished, score an A for behaviour. They may not but they could. If a child is only shown F grade behaviour then it would be a huge effort for them to even score an E, something the first child could do without even thinking most days. Just because a child scores an E doesn't mean the parents are modelling E-grade behaviour though, but a well behaved child has to have been exposed to good behaviour in the first place. Does that make sense?

We set the standards, our children may not always live up to them but they'll rarely surpass them without help.

I agree with Hoobley. I can cope with some physical stuff from DH: if he were to grab me because I was going to cross the road in front of a car that's fine. If he were to beat me afterwards, not fine. Tell me off, OK; beat me, no. (I have a visual problem that's with my brain and not my eyes; most days I'm fine but others I have little peripheral vision and don't often realise the extent of it until too late.)

DS beats us up far more than we'd ever hit everyone in our whole lives ever! But we're a family of affectionate bum-slappers anyway: if I want one of the boys to hurry up I'll walk past and say "come on" while patting the bum; if DH thinks I'm being silly he'll go for mine. DS went to pat DH's bum the other day so he's thinking we have to stop this!

I do pick and choose which tantrums to ignore. Ones where I won't give him a snack ten minutes before dinner I hold him and talk him through them. Taking him away from activities I do the same. Willful disobedience or hitting me, he can learn that I am not happy with that behaviour. I don't let him scream it out but I don't rush to him to give cuddles if he attacks me.

TBH, we had the "if you do that again you get a smack". Why couldn't we do it again? Because of a smack. Not because the drink/iron was hot, not because the curtains weren't attached to the wall that well so could fall on us, partly because Mum was having a bad day: it doesn't teach you why something is wrong, only that today it is. And smacks, what's the big deal? Never stopped my sister. Anticipation is akin to child torture, IMO: I had this as a child. Get in the car and the telling off began, Mum would wind herself up about something we'd done and forgotten about an hour ago whilst visiting and we'd get a smack once we got in the house. Soon as Mum announced we were leaving anywhere while I was at junior school I got anxious; in fact, I didn't want to visit anyone or leave the house for some time because I was so scared of saying the wrong thing. Which is why I deal with behaviour NOW and not later, even if it means telling DS off in "company".

RF it does make sense for a normal child yes. I'm trying to encourage others to see beyond "normal"... What I mean is that it is impossible to judge a child on the spectrum that way, or should I say its impossible to judge the parenting of a child on the spectrum that way?

Matilda's "tantrums" or meltdowns take up to 4-5 hours. Not like Jovie's who can recover in 10 minutes for a long one. During Matilda's episodes, she will lose herself. She is unable to connect with another human, she is unresponsive and yet sometimes she is. It all depends on location to how we handle the situation.

I can hold my head up and say I am NOT a bad parent. I love my children with all my heart and I have worked very hard at learning the best way to parent my children (its not the same for they are each individuals). It doesn't make it any easier when people openly judge my parenting when we do go through episodes. I can be known to disolve into tears when my child is "gone" from me. I could give a rats fart if someone needs to judge me during them, just that they are also judging my child.

Christy, I agree, you cannot judge parenting by a child's behaviour. You can see that a polite, kind, well-behaved child most probably has good parents but you CANNOT tell what sort of parents a child who is "naughty" has: they could have "bad" parents, they could have a medical problem (be it as severe as your Matilda's or be it they're teething and in pain and in a bad mood and tired - DS is a notorious teether), they could just be having an off day which happens to all of us. Or something else.

I know I get a lot of judgement for DS being less than a mini-adult with an adult's wants and abilities. He is a toddler and I am happy to encourage that. He is well-behaved most of the time, he knows to say "pliz" if he wants something, to me that's a sign of decent parenting. But if a child didn't say please? Maybe he never learnt it, maybe he can't say that yet, maybe he just forgot. Who is to know?

DF and I seem to endlessly argue over parenting decisions like this. He is pro-smacking for discipline and I am highly against, in any way, shape or form.

Due to domestic violence in my childhood, my main worry is that were we to begin smacking in terms of discipline, that I would be unable to control it. I know that sounds horrible, but it's the best I can do to explain. I am a generally calm person but when I am angry or can't cope I do withdraw into myself so as to prevent these situations from occuring.

We were strapped as children and it was horrible. For someone whose mother is a childcare professional I cannot fathom how she believed this was the best way to discipline. Not to mention the strap came out for things such as not keeping our bedrooms clean.
I know that she got it from her upbringing but it is something that instilled fear into me as a child. We were often not threatened, but just smacked. That brings fear, not education.

As for the DV my stepfather used to lay into my mother for no reason at all and I am so, so afraid of emulating that, that I absolutely, bottom-line REFUSE to begin smacking.

I am someone who whilst suffers no obvious issues from smacking in her childhood, but has a heightened strain on her relationship with her mother which could largely attributed to the fear that was felt. I do not communicate well with her, out of fear of disapproval; I am often not honest with her, out of fear of repercussions, disapproval, argument; I have only just started making adult decisions for myself, despite having been out of home for four years, because I was too scared of her opinions.

I think smacking has a lot to do with this... however I could be wrong.

Well I know I am a great parent and 99% of the time my boys are very well behaved when we are out, I get comments all the time about how good they are but yesterday... my goodness! They wouldn't listen, kept fighting and running off, no matter how many times they went to time out they kept mucking up. I blame the heat (since it was 33 and our first hot day). I would hate to think that people think I am a bad mother because they were being naughty :(
Cm that is so interesting. I wasn't smacked past about 8 because my mum thought it wasn't working, she then went on to take things we liked and ground us which worked much better. I have the closest relationship with my mum, she is a part of everything I do, we talk all the time and she is even living here at the moment to help with the kids until my sister has her baby in April then she's moving in there. We are really very close and I wonder if it would have been different if she continued to smack us?

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I am someone who whilst suffers no obvious issues from smacking in her childhood, but has a heightened strain on her relationship with her mother which could largely attributed to the fear that was felt. I do not communicate well with her, out of fear of disapproval; I am often not honest with her, out of fear of repercussions, disapproval, argument; I have only just started making adult decisions for myself, despite having been out of home for four years, because I was too scared of her opinions. I think smacking has a lot to do with this... however I could be wrong.

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Cookie.. you took my thoughts and put them into words .. i feel exactly the same way ..
:hug:

I also agree that you can not judge a parent by the childs behavior .. DS can chuck a wranger in public , or can be disobiedient all day ... Yet I do belive i am a caring loving wonderful mum.. the "i love yous " i get right before bed says it all

its down to 50/50 ... 50% love 50% disipline = well rounded child... but hey no one is perfect

Smacking is not in my parenting tool box and never will be. DP and I are on the same page about this. I was smacked as a child (and then some, but 'out of love', whatever that means) and DP was only ever smacked once. I do not raise my child to co-operate on the basis of the threat of violence or loss of control. I do not 'punish', the same way that I do not 'reward' (taking away or giving something to achieve something misses the point of the exercise and merely achieves compliance). Since reading Alfie Kohn's 'Unconditional Parenting', I have become even firmer in my 'no punishments and rewards' stance. Have a read of this book and you will rethink your own childhood.
I cannot say I 'turned out ok', even though for all intents and purposes, I did. I have memories of how I felt getting a smack, or even the threat of a smack.
As for not smacking in anger and waiting for the anger to pass, this is just premeditated violence and is completely and utterly misguided, as well as les comprehendible by a child. A moment of anger where you give a smack is emotionally unevolved (or else, why would some of us feel bad about it afterwards? We realise it was impulsive, which is emotionally immature behaviour) and I think it's perfectly ok (in fact, beneficial) for children to see a range of emotions and reactions in the home where we can then explain why some are acceptable and some need to be apologised for. Just not as a regular reaction to non-compliance to achieve compliance. That is abusive. I mean this in the sense that it abuses the child's sense of absolute security in the parent. I don't mean it in the sense of systematic and long-terms abuse, though this is often also the case. At bare basics, it is abusive of the child. How can it not be?
I agree with RF - if you're smacking after a safety breach, it's premeditated violence and makes no sense. The first thing it's going to do is get the child to think about themselves and their own personal security, rather than their most recent breach. they will NOT go off and think about what they've done, they will be feeling very insular and very, very hurt.
My son is the classic candidate for smacking (as was I), by the prevailing and conventional wisdom. He is willful (though when we reach adulthood, this is espoused as Independence and Knowing One's Own Mind) and adventurous. There are many things he needs to learn by NATURAL consequence that aren't that great to do. Like last night. He climbed out of the bathroom window...and fell onto the deck outside with a bang. Now he knows why we get him down from there when he climbs the bath in our presence. We gave him cuddles and sorted him out and then, instead of smacking him, asked him if he wanted to climb the window again...emphatic 'No, no climb window'!! We kept our eyes on the target incident and so did he.
As for tugging and grabbing - I see this as different is cases of safety of the child and there is just no practical time to explain the dangers or to let them 'taste' the danger you speak of. You wouldn't let someone you didn't like walk out onto the road if they hadn't seen the bus hurtling towards them! Kids aren't dumb, and unless they're used to being smacked, punitively and physically punished for these things, they will have the emotional space to realise it was a safety issue. When I do this to DS (on the road, in carparks, around horses etc), he does not get emotionally hurt - he looks up at me and references my facial expression, gives me a hug and looks at the dangerous situation. After asking him to be careful around horses' legs for ages, one day he wandered behind and close to my horse and I just grabbed him. He got a fright and at the same time I said "Danger, danger, danger" (god bless Steve Irwin and his Wiggles foray!), so he pointed to the legs and repeated it. The next visit, guess who remembered to be wary of horses' legs?
I guess I just grew up aware of the abuse of power meted out to me as a child that it hasn't taken that much thinking and planning to enact different, more constructive behaviours with DS. And DP just doesn't have them in his memory bank to call on.
Violence or threats of violence are a crap way of relating to your children. They erode trust and are 'doing to' the child, rather than 'doing with'. Sure, lots of people see no value in 'doing with' and think it's perfectly legitimate to 'do to'. My question would be, "how come?".
So, yes, in many respects I have 'turned out fine', and it was NOT because I was smacked (and belted and punished, and had withdrawal of privileges etc). I would have turned out less scared of people suddenly waving arms about if I hadn't been smacked (my mum still has this effect on me, many years after she asked for my forgiveness for what she did - she replicated what she knew, though with far more love than she experienced, and always says that if she knew then what she knows now there is no way she'd repeat it...that's emotionally evolved, to know you'd change a maladaptive behaviour).
Smacking is just not in my toolbox as an option. It's counterintuitive, counterproductive and takes away a child's humanness.

We were all smacked as children, however my brothers more than the girls (3 boys 2 girls). I had an extremely abusive father who would lay into my mother or if any of us upset him by simply expressing an opinion we'd all get hit. All it taught was fear, to bully and not express yourself. As my brothers grew up the only way they learned to express their emotion and frustration was to lash out. I used to find myself sometimes if I can't get out what I want to say to DH I would slap him or hit him, even now sometime I have to stop myself just before I lash out.

Based on my childhood, and on the surface I turned out pretty good, I have decided I won't smack. I did recently twice and I got smacked back by DS and THAT made me realise that smacking would only teach him all of those wrong lessons my siblings and I were taught. Heck DS will hopefully have a better chance because he won't (I hope) have the emotional and alcohol induce psychotic episodes that we all experienced in my childhood and may turn out Ok with the odd smack.... but for me it isn't a path I am going to take.

I suppose i believe this is true where a child is of optimum mental and physical health (no offence intended). I genuinely believe a healthy child reflects its parents treatment through their own behaviour.

Time and time again i see children using foul language and aggression towards their siblings, only to then see the parent swear and use physical punishment towards them. Coincidence? i think not.

MummaB if your children fight, and they will, is that a reflection of your parenting? Or am I misunderstanding your comments?
Because my boys have hit eachother, but I have smacked them maybe 4 times, and at least 7 months ago was the last time.

I think theres a difference between "play" fighting, and common arguing, disagreements, snatching etc - My toddler does hit my baby and we have worked through this through words - and through COMFORT i have helped him to work through his stressors that lead to him hitting his brother.

Never have i had to smack to stop him hitting his brother.

And wouldn't it be awfully ironic if i did ;)

Yeah, I hardly smack the girls. But Jaz can be quite agressive towards Bri.
It's almost purely out of jelousy. She doesn't think its fair that she is treated different coz she is older, so when she gets in trouble she lashes out at Bri.
My children are very polite well mannered children & never use agression towards other children. Ever! Bri did when she was alot younger, because she didn't understand what she was doing, but that was a natural reaction because of her age & frustration. She never does it now.
I have to say that sibling rivalry & arguments are not based on parenting. Every family has to deal with it. Its part of growing up.
Rod & Todd on the Simpsons are not normal!
IMO most children will try lashing out. It may only be once as a toddler when another child takes a toy, they might bite or pull hair or something, but in general I don't think I know a single child who doesn't try it.
You can't judge the parents I'm sorry. Sometimes they are to blame, but not always. Especially not when it comes to a toddler or small child who are still learning how to deal with their anger & frustrations.

I am a little hesitant to express my opinion at the moment as I haven't had bubs yet and had to deal with discipline issues myself but at the moment my feelings are as follows - they might change.....

I currently belive in using smacking as a tool ONLY after all other avenues have been exhausted..

eg: explaining the behaviour to the child (depending on age) and other discipline tools -whether it be in your room, naughty corner - whatever you choose to use....

I have no problem with then explaining to the child that "if you do this again you will get a smack on the bottom because of this this and this"
it allows them the option of making the choice whether or not to continue with the behaviour and again reiterates the reasons why you don't want them doing it and why this is a consequence.

Both DF and I were smacked - very differently though ....
My mum smacked on reaction and to hurt (iron cords, wooden spoons etc) and this is not something that I agree with....
Df was smacked after warnings with a tupperware spoon and was also sent to a Christian primary school that used the cane....

DF and I were both "wilful" children (I think the old school term would be little sheets) and after a certain age being smacked didn't bother us anymore it was just like "bring it...." but that was more towards the tween years....

I have been fortunate to see 2 of my closest girlfriends raise my 2 godsons with VERY different parenting styles...

S raises Bailey (almost 6) with the 2 warnings/ explanations then a smack and your room approach and whilst the still tests her and tries it on he is hte most polite boy and 9 times out of 10 will stop his behaviour because he knows mum is serious and will follow through....

L raises Ben (almost 5) in a completely opposite manner...
He is also a spirited little boy - who I love dearly but is lacking in manners and is also a physical child. The bites, kicks and hits and I have seen L trying to explain to Ben that he is "hurting her feelings" while he's laying into her shins and you can tell he's not even listening to her just acting out his feelings in a physical way.
She doesn't do time out and putting him in his room is fine because just about every room in the house is a play room so it's not like he is missing out on anything.... The concept of "don't do tis or else" is completely foreign to him.....

I don't judge either style of parenting .... but in my experiences they have turned out 2 children with very very different behaviours...

The thing I have the biggest prob with is punishing after the face...

"You wait til your father gets home... " Or "When we get to the car/ home your in trouble..."

Bad analogy but young kids are like dogs.... you can't punish an animal for somethng they did 3 hours ago - they would have no idea what they were being punished for as they live in the moment...
I believe young kids are the same - you have to punish when they are caught / warned about doing the wrong thing and I don't think it's fair to make a child anxious about something that is "coming...."

Anyways .... I might completely change all my thoughts when I am in the position of discipline but just my take on it at the moment :)

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ITAFirstly sounds like you stopped your behaviour out of fear of getting a smack, not because you knew the behaviour was bad. I think it is cruel to tell them when they get home they will get a smack. It is making them spend the whole time out worrying about what will happen when they get home. I know this because I have had many discussions with my mum who was always told "when your father gets home he will deal with you" and she would worry ALL day. (usually for no reason because he would either say not to worry or yell a bit)
Secondly it is illegal to smack a child with anything OTHER than your hand, so a object SHOULDN'T be used. You are only allowed to smack below the waist and you are not allowed to leave any marks.

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I was just sharing my experience as a child. I was NOT opening my childhood for you to judge or tell me how I felt. I am just discussing the issue at hand using my experiances as an example. ie I don't have any mental issues and I don't hate my mother or resent her for smacking me.I was NEVER scared of getting a smack. I just knew that it was going to hurt and I wouldn't do it knowing the consequences. I have been googleing the laws in Australia against smacking and there are none as far as I can see. Only discussion thus far.

Joe Tucci, CEO of Australians Childhood Foundation said "It's legal to use physical discipline but it's not legal to assault your child. And that's the difference, the difference is not about, talking about whether parents should smack or not smack, this is about the law and whether parents who cause an injury to the child under the name of discipline should be held accountable."

I found this quote on one of the sites that I found and it pretty much sums up EXACTLY what I was trying to say before. That there is a difference between a smack as discipline in a controlled environment and in the right context ie not a fly off the handle whack or thump as the child passes by & worse situations that I can't even imagine that some children actually endure.
I WILL NOT be smacking my child with my hand as it goes against what I believe is right.

Thanks for clearing that up Rustygirl

On subject of the effectiveness of smacking, I just wanted to add what I learned as a child by being smacked
1 - fear of those with power
2 - craftiness (ie, to avoid getting caught)
3 - buck passing (if I did get caught)
This obviously affects my view of smacking as an (un)effective tool for disciplining a child. In the end you can't really predict the effect of things on particular children, all you can do is make the best choices for you.
Back on topic, it's very true that you shouldn't judge just by what you see at the shops, or whatever. I used to, I admit it. Now I have a child and bit more perspective I don't. If I see a parent struggling with their child at the shops, even if it seems forceful, I remind myself that I don't know them or their circumstances. They could well just be having a very bad day.
Laws controlling these things are certainly tricky to enact and enforce.