How's this for a woman-friendly Ob... (exaggeration)

Hmmm, that wasn't my point or what I said, but anyway :rolleyes:
It's not stress on my part or the part of the other objectors here, but disgust directed at this doctor, for allowing his opinion (which is not evidence-based in a few of the points he makes) to cloud his professional practice. That's one of the points being raised here.
I think this is a fair enough discussion to be having on BB. You take a position and expound on it if you want to. That's what I'm doing, that's what others have been doing. If you want to misread what is written, well, that might happen, but I wasn't directing insult anywhere, rather celebrating that we know our choices.
ETA: Fair enough, Liz, yep, I see what you're saying :) If it IS tongue in cheek, he has really blurred the lines! I still think he doesn't like birth plans - he says long ones are particularly ineffective, but doesn't seem to like them anyway. I'm making an inference, and it may not be true, but he hasn't said he likes a concise one, either, IYKWIM?

Colleen and B456 I must say I agree with your points - there are 2 sides to this debate (at least) and just as the Dr is not seeing both sides, neither are other people who feel 180deg opposite to him.
This forum should be one where we are all able to make our decisions and not be judged or assumptions made that we just dont have the info available to make the 'right' one etc etc - perhaps this site BB is around as no one provides the 'non medicalised' view but just as people take offence at the Dr being so one sided and somewhat disregarding the non medicalised views of birth, those of us who perhaps are putting it more in the hands of an OB are not necessairily doing this bc we are not aware of information, unempowered, weaker, putting baby at risk etc and we may find it offensive to have our choices demeaned.Comments like women who may have drugs during birth need their opinions 'normalised' can be quite hurtful too.
Come on we are all looking to do what is right for us and our babies and our bodies, we make decisions with the best intentions - lets not judge each other (but pls realise this goes both ways).
The most hurtful thing that has been said to me in my pg is from a cousin who stated that I am weaker and selfish and diong the 'yuppy steroetype' for going down the private OB route - I made a choice that works for me and my family (based on lots of facts and input from others) - how would she/you feel if I said you are too stingy to pay for the service (which is not what I think but is a similar type of value judgement)... seems the criticism can only go 1 way...

Ok, it seems I need to clarify.
I was saying that women on here ARE making an informed choice. If you are seeing this guy, then you HAVE made your choice. The only person I criticise here is the doctor. I am not even criticising the women who go to him not realising that there are other choices available to them - somewhere, someone has let them down (women who tell horror stories, propagate urban myths about 'alternatives' etc). Women on BB ARE using their agency, and are aware of their power.
Pregpan, your point about drug free births was a bit unclear - not sure what you considered hurtful, could you please rephrase so I can understand what you took offence to? Cheers :) For the record, my point was to normalise drug-free births, instead of having them treated like something 'way out' - that's how my intentions were treated all through my pregnancy, and even after the birth. I am always explaining how it's entirely possible (cos I'm always being asked!) to do this, especially from women who say they didn't know it was possible (obviously not realising that for most of humanity's existence there has been no medicated pain-relief for birth and we managed to get to the year 2007;) ). I don't think I'm a particularly hippy-earth-mamma (but don't mind if I'm mistaken for one, either!), but this is now my birth and pregnancy choices were treated by many people I came across (colleagues, friends, relatives, my own mother!!). That's what I mean by my wish to normalise a drug-free birth. Medicalised births ARE normalised already.
I have not criticised medicalised births, I realise they happen for a reason in some cases (others, cos women assume it has to be that way - denial won't work here, I KNOW women like this!), so I don't understand the defensiveness coming from some people here. If my defence of a waterbirth, drug-free birth, etc is a problem, well, I don't get that. I haven't said everyone should have one. But if you want one, then it should be a normal choice to make!
ETA: Pregpan, what a dumb thing for your cousin to say! I can't even see a shred of helpfulness in that - how were you NOT meant to take offence to that?? I haven't heard this being levelled as a criticism of anyone, I must say! Access to funds, to me, doesn't determine use of an OB - if I'd wanted one, I could have (paid for it with baby bonus or something!), but it was not a factor in giving an OB the big miss!

as should medical birth be a normal choice to make.

Not one that is right here now, being criticised.

Im leaving this topic alone now, i feel my points have been understood and i cant justify wasting any more time on this man and his ways. be them, right or wrong.

It is so wonderful that we have such a collective of passionate intelligent women in here! I LOVE IT!

I would just like to reiterate - this isn't about seeing Dr P's side of the story. It's not about sides. This man is making statements that are contrary to evidence. He is stating his opinion.
My beef is that many women who are seeking information will come across his opinion and mistake it as fact simply because the author is an obs.

Just an aside - this man is not tongue in cheek he believes he needs to lead the birth process. Yep okay there are women who will make an informed choice to have this type of care - that's what choice is about. I am all for choice.

Again, my concern is that his opinion is being taken as fact when it is not and women who are not quite as assertive will not question the validity of his statements.

This is why I believe his website is not at all helpful to birthing women. :hug:

Just to be clear I am not trying to get into an argument and i know that everyone on here wants to make this whole process as wonderful as possible to women on the BB forums and be supportive of each other. I am feeling quite sensitive about this whole topic as I am feeling pressured from a lot of corners (as you can well imagine after my cousins comment!). and I was not implying that you would not go to an OB only for financial reasons, I was thinking of something as offensive as what was said to me. so sorry if it came across differently. As it happens I havent even made many choices other than my OB and hospital... at my appt next week I intend to discuss what options are avail with my OB and I also have a Doula who I am hoping will help me to make choices, be informed, and be heard as I expect to be...
IK the comments that cut me a little are comments that ppl who have chousen certain methods - you educate and 'normalise' them but I think you mean you normalise the choices. I guess I dont feel this speaks to me as I have friends, relatives who have done many diff methods so I dont think it is weird or anything - I am just making a slightly different choice...
It's great we can all have our points of view - lets just be supportive of each other whatever the views/choices are...

Yep, Pregpan, I mean normalising the 'alternatives', so that they are not just 'alternative', but legitimate choices that don't send people off assuming that you are a loony, or a tree-hugging, bleeding heart. That's great that among your circle this isn't the case. For many people, though, like myself, this isn't the case. I have talked about my experiences a lot so that the next person whom some of these people meet won't get the same 'you've just grown another head' treatment when they mention they want a waterbirth, want to do hypnobirthing, want a drug-free birth etc (in my fire brigade circle, I had every firefighters wife, just about, telling me to 'just take the drugs' in a tone that held no respect for the aims I had!). For me, more than for myself, my plans were for the benefit of my child. Why should that be 'alternative' or taking a 'risk'?
I really do think it's really awful what your cousin said to you - that is so rude! Like I said, I wouldn't have thought it had anything to do with 'yuppiness' or perceived economic status!!

I have taken some time today to read the whole of the Dr's website - not just the Old Wives Tales. I think you should have a read as well.( not meaning just you IK,) It doesn't seem that he wants to lead the birth process, and he mentions very briefly that he doesn't agree with water births.
I can understand how he got many of you offside though. I am sure that if I was an advocate for water births, i would find him offensive.

If you read it, he also thinks ultrasounds are a good indicator of how you will labour ('These are not 100% accurate, but will give a good indication of the chances of success in labour.') as well as many other things which continue with the path of being not evidence (i.e. study, proof) based practise. Again, this is not what his body recommends and stands for. So I would like to hear what they think, and I know several people who have written to them for answers to his 'opinions' which he will enforce on all women who see him. The things he states, you wont know if they are evidence based or not unless you are otherwise informed. I also heard of an Ob who did caesareans on all mothers over 30 as he believed it was less risky. So would going to him be the same as the above mentioned?

Good point Kelly.

Even though I am struggling to keep on task here I do want to comment and share a little further along the path that IK has.

Like IK I have endured endless criticism and incredibly baseless and alarmist statements from folk for my birthing choices. My first child was a planned home birth - I was taken to the ringer by some. I won't go on about the comments but if I hadn't already been to many births at home and in hospital and if I hadn't had the education I had then, I would have been scared witless.
My second child was born at a birth centre - "surely that's not safe", "oh you are brave", "oh that's just ridiculous!" We had our older child at the birth: "she will be scarred for life". "Surely that's not allowed" or from my MIL "what if child services find out"!

What I find frustratingly amusing/angering is that if I said "I want a c/section" I would be normal. When I say I want to birth my baby in a tub of water with my family around me I am a wierdo. Trust me - I have been called just that.

I *think* in different words this is what IK is saying: If I choose a medical approach to birth I am thought of as normal. If I choose a natural approach - an approach where I listen to my instincts, follow my bodies lead, where I choose no drugs unless indicated by a medical condition then I am somehow foolhardy or irresponsible.

I don't choose this method to birth my children because I am an idiot I choose them because I have decided for me this is the best way to birth.
For me I see birth as a process - an initiation, a sacred act. Of course it's about birthing the baby but there are many facets to birth - it's a time of immense growth for a woman and a man.
Each time one of my children has been born - my Earth babies and my Angel babies - I have birthed a new part of me. I have learnt so much from the journey.

I still remember the little wriggle that my fourth child gave before I pushed her into the water. She was the first birth I had without my "sister" at my side. I had to reconcile and grow and realise that I could do it without her.

I still remember the incredible fear I had to overcome to push out my first daughter - the wrestling in my mind and heart that I had to make peace with. When I did make peace she crowned...

Yes, many women don't see birth at all like this - I don't think them wierd. I think them different to me. I have been at many births. I have been to c/sections through to homebirths in water. I have seen both ends. Birth is beautiful. Choice and education is an essential part of that. Good education is not opinion based.

Someone on here (ecxcuse me but I can't remember who) said we need to support each other. I don't think anyone has been unsupportive. I would be very sad to know that a woman I had touched felt unsupported. In being different there does not have to be lack of support. I fully and completely understand why some women "need" to be induced - I have supported wholly and fully women who do this. I also understand why women choose c/sections. Again I have supported women in that area too.

What I want to see is the pendulum to swing back. The c/section rate in Australia is 30% it should be less than half that. It is normal to have a c/section but less normal in many peoples eyes to have a natural (drug free spontaneous)birth.
People like me (and it sounds like IK) have had to endure incredible amounts of unsupportiveness on the path to getting the births we choose.

Belly Belly is about informed choice. It's about empowering women. It's about support. I think that is why many of us find the good Dr. to be a less than wonderful woman centred birthing advocate. :hug:

Perfect, Flowerchild :thumbsup:

The Moderators comments are offensive to me, and they are inappropriate for somone acting as a 'moderator'.

'Bellybelly''s profile states that she is a 'birth attendant'. She claims no other qualifications, and yet proports to have superior knowledge of evidence based medicine. She writes: "...He defies all study and research with his comments,..." and also that he has a " ....lack of regard for evidence based practice." I wonder how, exactly, she comes by her knowledge of all things obstetric? Who is she to judge?

I also don't think it is particularly appropriate to initiate and encourage a discussion which attacks a person's character with such words as 'arrogant' , "ignorant man" , "male cynicism" , "mean-spirited and cynical" , " condescending" , " scare-mongering" ..and I could go on.

I have also looked thoroughly through the website, and I think also that you have misrepresented the issue of ultrasound scans.

Lastly, as I have participated on many other forums, it is appropriate to have a moderator who moderates rather than inflames.

And at the end of the day, women jumping up and down about this and driving change are only doing a positive thing for women. We're not saying all Obs should make women have natural births, no drugs or whatever... we're saying to give them a fair go if they do, and not pass judgements or opinions. So women who want their caesareans, drugs, forceps - they will always get them. We are not telling them to stop. We are asking for equality, healthy choices and practices and if women want otherwise then fine! No choice is being taken away from ANYONE. The only people missing out are the ones NOT wanting interventions, rightly or wrongly so - so you can see why we do jump up and down. I know my first birth was a completely naive one - I wanted the best ob money could buy, the best hospital etc as I thought that was best for my baby. When he snickered at my birthplan I thought he must know better. But later I knew I had choice over things I had that I didn't want or enjoyed having.

So we should praise and support those wanting change, its only going to result in better outcomes for many women, better birth satisfaction, happier mummies and probably less tearing other mothers apart about their choices, as we've all had wonderfully empowered births, even if they didn't go to plan - research goes to show that where women were involved in the decision making process, there is less PND and more birth satisfaction, less PTSD. That has to be good for society. Please support my cause and the cause of others doing the same. It wont impact on your own choices for birth AT ALL.

Thank-you for your comments, doctor ( I have omitted your name/ your husband's to avoid being inflammatory to your name and removed references in people's posts ). We are all entitled to our own opinion on this website, as you/he have expressed yours. I think I shall close this thread now, I think enough has been said.

*bump*

Found an oldie moving things around! Still scary!!!