Pass the duchie to the left hand side, I say pass the duchie to the left hand side.....
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Pass the duchie to the left hand side, I say pass the duchie to the left hand side.....
Woah! So much has happened since I've been out :dance:
I'm glad to see all the referencing - it will def. make some compelling reading.
Apologies for reading your first post incorrectly Arimeh. I think you may have misconstrued what I was saying about your friend. I'm not at all interested in what she gets up to recreationally - I'm just interested in the impact that it will have on an unborn child and if there is any future impact on that child.
Will read on and see where this thread takes me......
Here's one from the ABA - this is referring to regular rather than recreational. References were loooong so have attached URL Australian Breastfeeding Association - Breastfeeding and the use of recreational drugs - alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and marijuana
Breastfeeding and the use of recreational drugs - alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and marijuana
Janet Liston B Pharm
Abstract
This paper both reviews the current literature and explores anecdotal information as reported by Nursing Mothers' (now Australian Breastfeeding Association) breastfeeding counsellors relating to breastfeeding and the use of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and marijuana. All of these drugs do enter breastmilk to some extent and can have a detrimental effect on the production, volume, composition and ejection of breastmilk, as well as a direct adverse effect on the infant. Breastfeeding mothers should be encouraged to restrict their intake of these so-called recreational drugs. It is acknowledged that this is a particularly stressful period in a mother's life and that she may need additional support and practical suggestions to limit the exposure of these drugs to the infant.
Breastfeeding Review 1998; 6(2): 27-30
MARIJUANA
The active component of marijuana, delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is fat soluble and is rapidly distributed into brain and adipose (fatty) tissue. The analysis of breastmilk in chronic heavy marijuana users shows an eightfold accumulation in breastmilk compared to plasma. Infants exposed to marijuana through breastmilk will test positive in urine screens for two to three weeks.
Breastfeeding infants absorb and metabolise THC and their exposure occurs at a time when growth and development, particularly glial and myelin formation in the central nervous system, is progressing at a rapid rate (Tennes et al 1985; Astley & Little 1990). Animal studies have shown that structural changes occur in the brain cells of newborn animals exposed to marijuana through their mother's milk. Marijuana purportedly impairs DNA and RNA formation. Although long-term studies have not been completed, results observed in humans suggest serious and long lasting effects (Astley & Little 1990).
If the mother smokes marijuana while breastfeeding or in the presence of the infant, there is also the effect of the sidestream smoke to be considered. Infants exposed to marijuana through breastmilk often exhibit signs of sedation, weakness and poor feeding patterns. Marijuana has been implicated in the reduction of basal prolactin levels and therefore, in possible decreased milk production.
Marijuana use causes reality distortion, which may make it hard to cope with an emergency situation, difficulty in performing small motor activity and after the 'high' wears off, a desire for sleep, usually quite deep, in which the mother may be unresponsive to her baby's needs.
The use of marijuana by breastfeeding mothers is contraindicated by the American Academy of Pediatrics. The long-term effects of early exposure, especially on the infant's rapidly-developing brain are unknown. Breastfeeding mothers should be advised not to smoke. It has been suggested that breastfeeding should be avoided if the mother is a heavy user and withheld for several hours after occasional use. Measures should be taken to reduce the infant's exposure to sidestream smoke as discussed previously.
CONCLUSION
In addition to the medical issue, there are also broader social issues in this discussion of breastfeeding and the use of recreational drugs. These encompass the legal ramifications and moral obligations of such use. In this age of increasing litigation, there may be potential for the future generation to apportion blame on the present generation for any harm that the mother's actions may be seen to have had on an infant. Already the Family Court is considering the issues of smoking, alcohol and other drugs in relation to the residence and contact of infants. Breastfeeding mothers should be encouraged to restrict their intake of these so-called recreational drugs. It should be acknowledged that this is a particularly stressful period in a mother's life and that she may need additional support and practical suggestions to limit the exposure of these drugs to the infant. In all cases it should be stressed that while the problem is the mother's use of these drugs while breastfeeding, the choice should be to give up the drug rather than to give up breastfeeding.
Copyright ? 1998 Australian Breastfeeding Association
I was being a bit silly before, but I don't want this part to be lost in all the info - even though it isn't what the thread is about.:
It is extremely interesting Lulu - I relish reading studies like that.
And yes. I've hijacked the thread and taken it off topic with all my questions...sorry all.
This makes a fascinating read.. thanks mel :)
Oh and I meant the social networking bit!
im on morphine for pain relief (adhesions) but after 3 years my doc said to me that if i found something to help he wouldnt disagree (longest iv been home in one go is 3 months in 3 yrs) pot helps me relax but i wouldnt use it in labour etc....its a interesting subject...i think there is some truth in that it relaxes your body and mind.
xxx
After reading all this I think that if society had collapsed and prescribed drugs were not available but I had a marijuana plant in my backyard I and if I or another woman was feeling anxious to the point of labour being dangerously delayed I would either ingest a small amount or offer a small amount to the woman. I think it's all about the weight of risk. I probably wouldn't take marijuana if I had access to proper Western medical care mainly because the affects on the baby are unknown.
However when i think of the bigger picture of harmful chemicals in a newborns life I personally are more concerned about the extremely harmful chemical ****tail a baby gets every time they are driven in a car... especially if it is on a daily basis. So... to me the minute amount of residual chemical resulting from ingesting a small amount (I'm talking maybe a single dried leaf) and that of the much larger chemicals breathed in in a car driving in heavy traffic (including trace amounts of heavy metals that can't be eliminated from the body): i would think the once used marijuana chemical would be safer. THAT is how dangerous I believe fumes inside a car are to us, especially newborns. Even with your windows wound up they still get in :( The inside of a car is a very bad place chemically speaking. Everything's relative and I just think people can sometimes over emphasis the risk with doing something once compared to the daily risk you take as part of your normal routine.
Mmmm- I find this rather interesting as I majored in drug studies at uni and we looked at the uses for medicinal cannabis - (which is a centuries old practice I might add!). It's most common medicinal use today is to releive pain and increase appetite in AIDS patients.
Here is an extract from the Wikipedia for medicinal cannabis:
Medicinal use of cannabis is legal in a limited number of territories worldwide, including Canada, Austria, the Netherlands, Spain, Israel, Finland and Portugal. In the US, fourteen states have recognized medical marijuana: Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington;[6][7] although California, New Mexico and Rhode Island are currently the only states to utilize "dispensaries" to sell medical cannabis.
There are currently seven US states considering medical marijuana bills in their state legislatures: Illinois, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey New York and North Carolina.[8] South Dakota also has several petitions in interest of medical marijuana legalization.[9]
Cannabis has a long history of medicinal use in many cultures. The US Government as represented by the Health and Human Services Division, holds a patent for medical marijuana.[10] Yet, medical cannabis remains a controversial issue worldwide.
I am not 'pro-cannabis' - and I choose not to use it, but I believe society is a bit out of balance when it comes to the stigma associated with illegal as opposed to legal drugs - the former which are formulated using extracts of natural drugs and adding a few synthetic chemicals so that they can be patented for a very large profit. Pethidine, for example, is an opiate drug. It has been chemically altered or synthesised, but by structure and action it is classified as an opiate drug - it has the same effect on the brain, central nervous system and the baby in the womb as heroin and its patented counterparts do - methadone, morphine etc. The use of pethidine during labour is actually extremely controversial and many health professionals advise against it due to the risks posed to the unborn child.
Similarly, athletes are forbidden from taking cough medicine for months leading up to competition, for if traces of it are still in their system they will test positive to heroin. And most of us know that the magic ingredient pseudoephedrine in cold and flu tablets is basically legalised, medicalised amphetamine, or speed. Hence why we are now required to show identification and have our details recorded if we purchase drugs with this ingredient at a chemist- as many people now use crushed pseudephedrine to sell illegally as speed. A regular speed user wouldn't know the difference.
Another example is the current treatment for Swine Flu - the Tamiflu drug. This is derived from the ancient Chinese herb Star Anise - which has been used for centuries in China as natural anti-viral medicine. You can buy it in the supermarket and add it to your cooking. However, now that big pharma has bought hoardes of it and is modifying it and adding a couple of synthetic chemicals in the mix, it can be patented as an entirely new 'wonder drug' and a small bunch of people will become very rich indeed!!!
Sorry to rave on, but I just wanted to extend this interesting topic a little further.....:lol:
Oh - and yes Bathsheba- there are chemicals in baby products like Johnsons which are arguably far worse that cannabis - petrolchemicals, coal-tar dyes etc. And people slather this on their babies every day assuming that because they are legal products that they must be safe. We are all suckers for heavy marketing!!
And you know those accumulated heavy metals which are hard to remove? There are natual chelation methods available now to remove them. You may wish to google Zeolite- Natural Cellular Defense by Waiora. I think you will find it very interesting!!
XX
Great post Jelly bean... I'm not trained in the history, manufacture or uses of medicines but that is exactly how i felt about legal vs illegal drugs.
ETA: just saw your second post JB :) Thankyou! And yes, so true about chemicals that parents are happy to slather on because that think legal = safe. :(
Ugh, I hate it when I find really interesting threads and have to jump in late.
I just wanted to throw this into the mix (so to speak ;)) I personally know two people who smoked pot every day, throughout most of their pregnancies. This was 15 and 19 years ago, and one still smokes regularly now.
One of these people smoked right up until she went into labour (and during the first few hours fo labour too, I think). She induced herself with castor oil (a whole 'nother thread there too).
The other stopping smoking at about the 36 week mark. She was 10 days overdue and had a cone- bubs was born about 9 hours later. It had the effect of inducing labour for her.
Neither of the babies had any sign of withdrawals.
Would I do it, perosnally? Probably not. I hated the effect of peth during labour because it made me feel so stoned, so actually being stoned would probably not be helpful.
Totally agreed! There is heaps of toxic ingredients and carcinogens in every day foods and products.
But there is a reason why psychiatric wards are packed to the rafters with dope psychosis patients...and it ain't because they're using talc after their shower!! I would just want to be 100% sure that I wasn't contributing to that in any way, and I don't think there is enough conclusive studies to sway me just yet.
My lil bro is studying psychology @ uni, so if he makes it one day maybe he can do a study for me!!! :D:D:D
True but you'll probably find the same problem with many over the counter drugs if they were used as often too :) But I do agree that more studies need to be done.:
Oh I wouldn't argue with that - you're absolutely right love :)
And I just want to add - I'm certainly not lil Miss. Squeaky Clean and on some anti-drugs tirade!!!
I'm just throwing my weight around and asking some questions because I genuinely find it compelling :heartbeat:
Oh you duffa ;) I didn't think that for a second... I'm not some drug pig either LOL!
I think though. Ballerine, some of those patients would actually ahve been self-medicating themselves for existing problems (which perhaps the dope made worse).
I hadn't heard about the pot induction method before.... The most way-out one I came accross in my research was starvation. That's right - stop eating and your baby will come. Couldnt' manage it myself. Went a whole day without chocolate, but that wasn't quite enough.
I have used pot in the past as pain relief for my period. It was effective, but I don't like smoking.
And thanks Niliac for being sweet - group hugs people! :grouphug:
For sure Marcellus - concoctions of drugs can be a dangerous thing.
Without being too intimate I can give you two examples of people - exclusive cannabis users - that were institutionalized before they hit their 20's. Very sad indeed, and you know what? They weren't alone. This appeared to be the psych units largest demographic.
Now I'm not being preachy - this is something I know from seeing with my own eyes unfortunately. It's not meant to be a scare campaign, though my articulation may appear that way!!
We can all have a bit of a Cheech-and-Chong-esque giggle about how we handle illicits, but we need to know that some people can't and there is still a lot we don't know about how this translates to a baby at the height of their brain development.
Arimeh and Lulu have a key point here. There was nothing abnormal to report about a study group of Rastafarian women and their children. I surmise this could be because what they smoke is purer with a THC component that is milder.
My gut instinct has always been that it's THC we need to be concerned about. I haven't absorbed a whole lot of facts on this theory, but the first page of Google (which is as far as I got :rolleyes:) held an interesting study that may support this claim.
It does look like THC has benefits also. Hopefully future studies will isolate the good stuff so we don't have to have this conversation in 50+ years!
Oh woops - and here's the doc I was referring to (sorry I'm new to BB! lol):
More Evidence Of Cannabis-induced Psychosis
ScienceDaily (Apr. 19, 2005) ? Volunteers taking cannabis-based therapeutic drugs as part of a controlled trial, which had been approved by an ethics board as safe for the subjects, experienced psychotic effects just as strong as if they had smoked cannabis. These findings, highly unexpected in such a controlled environment, are published today in the peer-reviewed, Open Access journal BMC Psychiatry.
Dr Bernard Favrat and colleagues, from the Institut Universitaire de Medecine Legale in Switzerland, were conducting a clinical trial into the effects of orally administered delta-9-tetrahydrocannibol (THC), the active ingredient in cannabis, when two of their male subjects experienced impaired psychomotor functions and severe anxiety typical of cannabis-induced psychosis.
When smoking cannabis, the effects of THC on psychomotor functions usually start once the concentration in the blood has reached 10ng/ml plasma. The trial should have been safe as the subjects were given low doses of THC and had much lower concentrations in their blood. However the two male subjects experienced their reactions with blood concentrations of 4.7ng/ml and 6.2 ng/ml, respectively.
Favrat and colleagues found that both subjects reported severe anxiety and impaired psychomotor functions. Other effects included transient symptoms of derealisation and depersonalisation, and paranoid delusions. They were described by one subject as worse than those experienced after smoking cannabis. One subject was given dronabinol, a synthetic THC that has been in medical use in the USA since 1985. The other subject was asked to drink a decoction of natural THC. The authors hypothesise that the effect may have been because the THC had been ingested, rather than inhaled; digesting THC may produce potent THC metabolites, which induce psychotic effects.
Research into designing THC-based medications has boomed in the last few years, due to the many therapeutic effects of THC. These drugs could be used to alleviate muscle spasticity in multiple sclerosis patients, restore appetite in AIDS patients and alleviate pain and nausea in cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy. Such research has to be approved to ensure that it is treating patients ethically and safely. Dr Favrat's research had been approved, which makes the findings even more unexpected.
Favrat and colleagues' report adds to the body of evidence that cannabis might be more harmful than previously thought. In the UK, cannabis was downgraded to class C early last year, but government officials have called for a review of the decision following a series of studies revealing that cannabis dramatically increases the risk of developing mental illnesses.
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This press release is based on the article:
Two cases of "cannabis acute psychosis" following the administration of oral cannabis. Bernard Favrat, Annick M?n?trey, Marc Augsburger, Laura E. Rothuizen, Monique Appenzeller, Thierry Buclin, Marie Pin, Patrice Mangin, Christian Giroud. BMC Psychiatry 2005, 5:17 (1st April 2005)