Oh well he is happy and has never complained. what if i was out somewhere with no access to heat it up cause dont forget according to the WHO microwaves are bad for heating them up.:
Oh well he is happy and has never complained. what if i was out somewhere with no access to heat it up cause dont forget according to the WHO microwaves are bad for heating them up.:
O i did that too... ooops!!:
Maybe because i didn't have to formula feed i don't get it, but i don't see how this thread is attacking anyone? It really is just about facts.... isn't it?
I couldn't care less if anyone formula fed or breast fed. Their body, their baby, their decision. I would never tell anyone their choice was the wrong one.
But i do care about informing people...... i think there is a big difference.
Guess i didn't burn him on un even heating at least.:
:
I think that is really important. Inform people but don't step over that line by telling them they are doing the wrong thing either way.
In what way is this thread informing people of anything other than there being a new product on the market? oh....and that FFing can cause Leukaemia...:rolleyes:
By pointing out Nestles horrific and unethical behavior...
Absolutely DanniM, i don't think it's ever anyone's place to tell someone else, that in their opinion what the other person is doing is wrong. Women FF for so many reasons, far be it for me to judge them.
How does a FF expresso machine constitute unethical and horrific? Unnecessary yes...but each to their own.
It's quotes like this that are wrong. It is just plain misleading. If they said 'A comprehensive nutrition system' Then perhaps it wouldn't be quite as wrong. BF'ing is clearly the FIRST. But it's statements like that that lead under educated women to believe they should forego BF'ing b/c this new system is the first one ever to provide comprehensive nutrition?! :wall: I think the thread points out the flaws in that statement, and that is important. Like i've said before i don't think it's a big issue for someone who is able to make an informed decision. It's the women who i live with that take this advertising as gospel who i worry about.:
the first comprehensive nutrition system for babies,
But surely horrific and unethical behaviour is just a symptom of modernity and thus excusable. After all morality is just a social construct and whilst depleting rainforests for palm oil and marketing formula to people with low incomes and no access to clean water might seem unethical to some, to the billionaires who own Nestle it is a justifiable protection of their bottom line. Arguably, the morals of a few wealthy Swiss people are just as valid as those of us who don't like it when women are exploited for profit :p:
Oo oo oo, thanks for posting this Kelly! Will you be importing them for Nestle on behalf of all the mums in Australia?
I MUST have one. It'll look so uber-cool in my kitchen. I'm a sucker for a fashion statement! Gotta keep up with those damn Jones', from next door.
:rofl: Me too... :rofl::
I think the issue that I have with the product that this thread is about is not any one specific thing, but the whole combination.
1) It is Nestle - although I don't think any Nestle products are bad on their own (they do good chocolate ;)), I don't like their advertising and the way they market their products, especially their baby related products. I don't like the way this "article" makes it out like natural mothering is soooo hard and this thing is the magic solution.
2) I don't like the pod dispenser thing - I too thought "what about waste/landfill/sustainability" when I read that.
3) It is another unnecessary gadget that can only be used for one thing. Although I can see how some people might want one for the "cool" factor, I don't think that anyone would ever really need it. That's purely my opinion, but it sometimes scares me thinking about how many "things" there are out there, that only have one use. What do you do after three years and your child no longer needs this? Would the expense of getting it be worth it? It may be for some, but for me, I prefer something like a microwave or a kettle that has multiple uses.
^ Then make sure you remember to order it in a custom colour, just to really stick it up those fancy-pantses next door ;) I heard they ordered one in Pillarbox Red, but it doesn't go with their decor ;)
No, you're right. that's why I said good lactation support. I had a heck of a lot of support with BFing my first and I still ended up with him so sick and underweight and had to comp feed. Thankfully I then got some good lactation support and we managed to turn it around. I struggled badly second time too but got there in the end. I do know what it's like to struggle to BF. It was not plain sailing for me. But having been told that I just couldn't and when in fact it turned out I could I don't believe that that many woman actually couldn't.:
Which brings me back to my comment that the cost of this machine and the throw away formula pods (at least $1K-$2K surely?) could probably easily pay for good lactation support. My issue is the lack of good support and women being made to believe they can't BF when they want to and they probably actually can if our society supported BFing more.
I completely agree with the environmental issues with this machine. I couldn't bring myself to be throwing those things out every feed!
If it wasn't nestle it would be another company. Would it have been posted if Wyeth bought it out first. Or if delonghi teamed up with a company and bought one out? Each to their own. If someone wants to buy it fine, their decision to do so does not effect me.
Actually it does because they're killing the same planet that you live on ;):
Absolutely, each to their own. I am not, have not, and will not judge someone else for FF.:
But i see first hand how powerful Nestle is and the devastating effects their marketing have. Because of marketing;
I've seen babies fed watered down formula to make it last longer.
I've seen mothers formula feed because it's a status symbol.
I've seen families chose to buy expensive nestle products, lacking in nutrition over fresh affordable veggies because the marketing tells them that is better.
And i've seen babies die due to poor nutrition.
Not once, not twice, but i've seen these things many times. That is horrific and unethical.
I didn't say the machine was horrific and unethical, i said nestle was and that this was just another strike for them.
It's only a strike for them if it is successful, and only time will tell that.
Junglemum we all know that good nutrition comes from whole foods over prepackaged rubbish anyday but i'm just wondering out of pure interest if Nestle are the main culprits in selling or advertising there products in unfortunate countries that don't have the choices like we have?
why is it only a strike for them if it's successful? i don't understand.:
I meant this is just another product that has just been released, it is just another way of making formula. Granted I read jungle mums last line a bit wrong.
I personally don't see anything wrong with it at all
People still have a choice to buy it or not.. To me it is no different to buying different types of prams or baby carriers.. This is my opinion
I did both so I'm a cancer-causing hippy?:
I wouldn't buy that machine but I do think it looks funky and could see why FF mums would happily have it on their bench tops. Why not? If they can afford it, like the look and happily FF then why the hell not? A waste of money for some, a funky addition to their kitchen for others. Who cares?
I can also see why some mums buy the wipe warmers - have those of you that bagged them ever tried them on your LO's bum in winter? It's a whole lot nicer than a stone cold wipe or wash cloth on their exposed little butt! Some of the parent rooms at our local shopping centre have them and when I've tried them on DD, she's really seemed to like them. So much so I had considered buying one as she hates the cool air and wipe on her bum now it's winter. And I don't blame her! I wouldn't fancy a cold wipe or cloth on my bum either!
Gimmicks are everywhere. Don't like them, don't buy them. Simple :)
Well said Taurean :thumbsup:
Yep and some people have more slings then they could possibly use.:
Each to their own.
I totally agree the advertising is pathetic but what advertising isn't nowadays?
I also don't get the 1k pram bashing? Our first pram was $50, which was reused for DD after my SIL had used it for her first born, so it was 3rd hand by then. My current car is very small and so far the only pram I can find to fit in it is 1k+.....so what?
Anyway back on topic, I don't like it and I don't see a point. What if there's a power outage? I'm sure the capsules are probably going to be super expensive. What do you do when your out? It's a complete gimmick but I'm sure we all have one or two things in our houses that fall into that category.
I haven't actually heard of wipe warmers? I don't see why people make so much fun of them? When I get a face washer out to wipe the kids faces in winter I use warm water :dunno: can't say I would buy one but it doesn't seem completely useless.
I am sure Nestle is not the only company to advertise in such a manner. I think we could all think of pmany comanies not just related to baby stuff that over emphasis/ under emphasis, misrepresent, lie etc. It is unethical- but its the nature of the beast...thats advertising for ya!:
And all of what you have said is right....
But its not this machine or the next machine or the one after that that one can 'blame'. Given- education etc is important but at the end of the day its all choice and if people choice to FF because its a status symbol then all we can do if provide them with the tools to make it as safe as possible. A machine that delivers the 'correct dose' can change the 'watering down of formula' cant it?
...Its not Nestle in isolation that causes the tragedies that you have mentioned...its peoples choices.
When Nestle gives women in developing countries just enough sample product to interrupt their supply and they switch to formula then I hold Nestle directly responsible. When the baby dies of amoebic dysentery because the mother can't prepare the formula in sterile conditions and doesn't understand then need to boil it then I hold Nestle responsible for that death.:
Nestle is directly responsible for killing children in developing nations. Nestle regularly violates regulations that are in place to protect vulnerable women and children.
It is not people's choices that cause these tragedies, it is Nestle's commitment to protecting its bottom line regardless of the social and environmental costs, it is Nestle's continual exploitation of the easily exploited, it is Nestle's aggressive marketing and it is because Nestle puts money ahead of human lives.
And if it wasn't Nestle it would be another company (unfortunately :()
Thats where information and empowerment becomes important to influence choice.
It is absolutely tragic..there is no denying that. We do however see this kind of 'vulturism' all over the world Eg tobacco companies, alcohol etc. Our best line of defense is information and empowerment to make the right choice.
Thats what I meant when I said 'choice'.
Seems to me it is a lot more difficult for people in a 3rd World Country to make an informed choice... they can't exactly jump on BellyBelly and read up on the ins and outs of things. THAT is why I feel so against Nestle, it is praying on those who are without the ability to make proper informed choices. Sure, education IS important but so is sending a message to these companys that what they are doing is not supported and not right. At least I think so anyway, no reason not to fight from all angles.
I totally agree with you.:
Saying that it's about choices can be kind of like blaming the victim if we are arguing that women in developing nations should just inform and educate themselves so they can make better choices.
On the other hand saying it's about choices can mean that we can use our choices to empower the women and children of the developing world who don't have access to the information and resources that we do.
I genuinely don't understand how any woman who knows what Nestle, Fronterra etc get up to in the developing world who doesn't boycott them. How can it be more important to eat a kit-kat than to tell a company that you won't deal with them because of they kill babies. It's not like we don't have choices - there are plenty of other brands out there. Some of them are even Australian.
I do understand the people who chose to support a local factory that is owned by Nestle because local jobs are important and people who use a product for health reasons and can't substitute it. I know that some people think that the good the BodyShop does outweighs the Nestle connection (I'm still working through that). At least they have thought through their options and made the choice that is right for them and/or their community but to just not care is pretty much beyond my imaginative powers.
So... How's this machine affecting third world countries again? I doubt they'd be able to afford one...
Aspiration marketing Helle.
It's why the airlines advertise 1st Class not economy and BMW spends a great deal more advertising the X5 and X6 than the X3 and X1.
Aspiration alright!!:
Aside from all the other astute and insightful responses I've read here, I avoid Nestle because they insult my intellgence so I will insult their money with a big, fat snub. And any other company that does the same.
If you don't care about the power of your money, go ahead and buy, buy, buy.
I'm listening!!!! And I totally agree. In our home, we try to live ethically and sustainably and anyone who knows me knows that I'm really passionate about those things. And this product isn't ethical and nor is it sustainable. it is encouraging you to buy more *stuff* and the more stuff you buy, the bigger the toll on the environment. Regardless of whether I BF or FF, it goes against everything I stand for to buy it. I also don't own a dishwasher or a coffee machine ;) I just don'twant my home cluttered with items that will inevitably end up in landfill.:
Helle, it affects the developing world by lining pockets that pay for more unethical advertising and the bribes (these DO happen) to allow that to happen in those countries. Naivete costs. Consumerism costs - and it doesn't just cost you (generalised 'you').
If you think this product is great then guess what? Hook, line and sinker. Job done, someone's justified their salary and the spin they call 'information' has worked.
If you think any of these companies actually has any interest in 'informing' you of your choices then please, enjoy the taste of that sand.
If you are one of those that has to use their products, please just know what you're using so that you can mitigate the risks. YES, there are risks to FF. Back in the bad old days of survival of the fittest, babies of women who couldn't produce milk were fed by someone else or they died. Just because they needn't die of starvation and malnutrition these days doesn't mean you are being marketed the best and complete food for your baby. But the companies won't tell you this, they'll just keep selling you stuff. So, sites like this exist for you to find out what the risks are so that you CAN compensate (most likely with products not marketed by these companies - perhaps the health food shop for some flaxseed oil, nut oils, fish oils etc, companies making things because they actually give a damn about the health of your children) for the increased risks associated with not breastfeeding. No-one in their right or scientific mind is going to tell you that FF CAUSES these things - they just increase the incidence. From that point it's up to you to do what you can to mitigate how much.
Meanwhile, Nestle has you by the short and curlies if you buy into this machine, and like sod you won't think toddler milk is a terrible idea after you've parted with a goodly bit of Baby Bonus to get the machine in the first place and want to think you're maximising your outlay.
So, yeah, not only do women in developing countries get dudded because of the money you give to these companies, you're getting dudded, too. Because they are not interested in you getting any REAL, unbiased information about what they have to sell to you. They've got a holiday in the Bahamas permanently booked in February and don't you go and mess that up!
Open your eyes or keep them closed, that's YOUR choice if you've been a reading member of this site for more than a day. You have a choice now.
Tricky Nestle, very tricky.
The site was down all day but it seems to be up now.
As we know marketing artificial baby milk for babies is illegal but Nestle appears to think that marketing a system from 0 - 3 years is not a contravention of the code....
A de facto contract with those families to lock them into Nestle products. Nice one. Marketing genius - no-one is saying they're stupid!
Pretty much what i thought...:
I haven't read through the whole 6 pages, I will go back though.
What strikes me with the whole Nestle thing is, it's not about FF vs BF. We all know there are times when you cannot, for whatever reason, BF. So there needs to be an alternative. The problem is when that alternative is marketed - and especially when it is marketed to people who have no way of knowing the facts behind the choices they are making - if Nestle just stuck to making a product that was availble on script, like an antibiotic or a painkiller say - then they wouldn't be able to push it so hard on people who might not actually need it.
I think the machine is a colossal waste of money & resources, it's a gimmick like so many others. But I guess if a FF mother decides it is going to enhance her life & buys one...well each to their own :dunno: not my business, not my problem. I ama bit concerned that the 'gimmickery' (is that a word?) of it might encourage some FFding... but then perhaps it's back on society, and our healthcare system to provide more information & support for BFing?
I dunno... I address the Nestle thing in my first post because I couldn't really see that this was about FF vs BF? I thought it was more about was this really necessary, and yes, the Nestle thing, rather than than FF in itself.
Well said. I sometimes feel like I need to put a disclaimer in these threads... 'I FFed and BFed, so I'm not judging anyone's choices...':
But give me information any day.
Some things, had I known differently I would have done differently. Some things I would not have because at that point in time I couldnot. But if I had had the information, I would have had the choice.
Rory, I hear you on the waste. One of the reasons I wouldn't like this no matter who made it.:
[/I]FWIW, I still wouldn't like it.:
I don't like Nestle. I don't like the marketing of things which promote consumerism & waste (and yet I fall victim to it too...) I don't get why anyone would think this machine is necessary.
But absolutely, if someone wants to buy it & use it, that's their choice.
I agree.: