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Thread: Bible and Church Question

  1. #19

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    Oh Sherie, what a shame, I guess it's like any organisation; dependant upon individuals. I have heard that within the Uniting Church there is a small rebel group who are anti-gay ministry but from what I understand the official word is still acceptance. HERE'S an article i found. I had to laugh at one guy telling his mate "so, you're in the p00fter church now" when he heard that homosexual men were being ordained in the Uniting Church. I hope I haven't offended anyone by including that quote... i used it as example, not condoning the use of that kind of language. I am proud that I'm attending a church who celebrates diversity.

    Last edited by Bathsheba; January 3rd, 2008 at 09:34 PM.

  2. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by butterfly_warrior View Post
    Sherie, you have a very good point there.

    Regardless of the denomination, you will always find some "bad apples" for want of a better term. It's important not to write off the entire denomination because of that, but to go into everything with an open mind. Just as it's important not to write off Christianity altogether because of some extreme fundamentalists who are extremely prejudiced. Also just as important not to write off Islam because of another set of extremists, and we could go on and on.

    BW
    Well said BW

  3. #21

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    Ack! I'm so distracted and forgetful lately.

    I meant to use a favourite quote of my DH's (which he may have picked up somewhere else), which I think is so perfectly true here... If you ever find the perfect church, don't join it. You'll only spoil it.

    BW

  4. #22

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    Bath, that is so true. I love the new Catholic Priest that's here. He is a real forward thinking man, and he came into the church at a later age (he is in his mid 60's and only entered the seminary in his 40's) so he brings a wealth of life experience that other priests wouldn't have (I have no idea just how much of life he has experienced though ). Normally I find the Catholic Church a bit stuffy and 'up themselves' at times, but he is great. I had a chat to him after my nephews' baptism (SIL is Catholic, which is another bone of contention with my Methodist MIL LMAO, but that's a whole other issue) and he really isn't what you would *expect* . Needless to say some of the church elders don't really like him that much as he isn't a traditional stuffy priest that they are used to.

  5. #23

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    Fixed up my link.

    I agree BW. No perfect church as they are all subject to the frailties of humanity.

  6. #24

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    The alliance has sought to survey everyone who attends a Uniting Church, asking three questions: whether celibacy (if single) or fidelity (if married) should be required of Uniting Church leaders, whether people in same-gender sexual relationships should be ordained, and whether that question is an issue on which Uniting Church members should be directly consulted.
    Bath, that was the exact three questions that we were given. It's interesting to read in that article about the Evangelical splinter group - that has happened in town here and I tell you what, they are a pretty biggoted and scary bunch of people. But its really odd in a way that the Leader (for lack of a better word) is a woman (albiet a very embittered one) and I would not be surprised if they are pushing that agenda. She also has it in for Freemasons too (again a whole other story LOL).

    The way I see it, is that we can't help who we are and that everyone should be allowed to show their love for God if they want to - it may be against the teachings of the bible to be a homosexual, but again the bible is interpretational from the very beginning and it almost seems at odds with a God that apparently loves all, but yet can hold such contempt for them.

    Sorry Sarah, we've kind of made your thread go off on a tangent, but this is a real interesting discussion.

  7. #25

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    I agree Sherie And even if people choose to interpret the bible in such a way that they feel justified in condemning people because of sexual orientation then they should ALSO read the passage about being able to throw the first stone at someone if they themselves have not sinned. It's pretty clear that we are to leave all judgement of this nature up to God.

    Sarah: yes, sorry! I guess this discussion is loosely tied up with the question of seeking the right church, generally speaking. Maybe a new thread should be started?

  8. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherie View Post

    The way I see it, is that we can't help who we are and that everyone should be allowed to show their love for God if they want to - it may be against the teachings of the bible to be a homosexual, but again the bible is interpretational from the very beginning and it almost seems at odds with a God that apparently loves all, but yet can hold such contempt for them.
    Oh and I very much agree with that!

  9. #27

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    I don't mind the thread going off topic, I at least know I am going to read what you have to say because I am subscribed automatically.

    I agree that god accepts everyone no matter straight or gay white or purple. I remember watching a show on CI which was about enouchs (sp?) and one of the enouchs was a minister of a church. Very interesting stuff, I wish I had recorded it or at least remembered the name of the show.

  10. #28

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    Did they mean a literally or figuratively eunuch? That's another interesting concept. The idea of a Eunuch in an authority role within the Church is different again as they are niether here nor there anymore, they become an empty vessle as a person in a way.

  11. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahBarahBanana View Post
    I really want to start going to church again but I am scared after hearing the story and I am not sure what to do. I have thought about changing denominations but the charismatic church is very laid back and fun and far from traditional.

    The bible question is what bible does a charismatic read?
    Wow, interesting discussion! Sarah, for me, I'd be testing these things by what the bible says. Our pastor (who moved on a little while ago, but great guy) would even tell us - read your bibles to make sure I'm teaching the right thing! We trusted him as someone who was faithful to God, but his point was - humans sometimes get things wrong, but the bible is truth.
    So this demand for money (if it's true) - who does that come from? I don't thing it's wrong for the church to ask for money, but if they're saying that God demands it, when what they mean is they think/hope/are just saying off their own bat that God demands it - then that's a problem. Because then they'd be misrepresenting God, and how can you believe what they teach about God if they use his name for their own ends, and not his?

    So - if something doesn't sit right with you, check out what God himself has to say about it!

    As for what version/translation to read - I believe that God protects his word, so I think there's many good translations out there! Myself, I read the New Living Translation, less often the NIV, and I find The Message good if I'm really stuck on understanding a passage - sometimes the familiar language helps me understand what might be tricky wording in the NIV.


    As for the church and sexuality...
    I think God's pretty clear in the bible that he didn't design us for same sex relationships - but then, he didn't design us to lie, or be selfish, or a heap of other things that I do.
    And God is abundantly clear in the bible that it's HIS job to judge us, and we are only to treat each other with love and support. So, I don't think we're to treat other people badly because they sin, that's between them and God.

    However...everyone sins right? But there's a difference between choosing a life of holiness and slipping up a lot, and choosing a lifestyle that goes against what God teaches and not repenting of that. I would say that anyone who teaches obedience to God, should be trying to model that. I can understand a Christian who tries, but struggles with sin. But a Christian who doesn't try to turn away from what God calls sin...

    Sigh. It's tricky, and I really have searched, and continue to search the bible on this. I think you can accept everyone - in fact, God tells us to show love to everyone - but we're also to live the way God wants us to. That is, trying (with God's help) not to sin.

    I hope I haven't unduly offended anyone - I believe that the bible teaches that God loves everyone equally. Our behaviour is completely irrelevant to that fact.
    So, no-one's better than anyone. It just comes down to attitude - a gay person might love God and be obedient (but disregard God on their sexuality), just like I love God and try to be obedient (but disregard God about other things). I wouldn't be cool with either of us leading groups of people - until we decided to give ourselves over 100% to God and be willing to let go of our sins.

    Anyway. Hope there's something in that ramble that was of value to someone. I can't emphasise enough that I don't endorse treating others badly for any reason, and neither does God (according to the bible).
    I do think though, that the issue with any church leader shouldn't be sexuality and equal rights, but more on their obedience to God.

  12. #30

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    Well Said Nelle!!!!

    I also use the NLT because I find it easier to undertand than the NIV. I have a childrens bible, NIV, NLT, Message, and the NLT is my favourite. The message remix is better than the traditional message because it has verse numbers where the message traditional doesn't.

  13. #31

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    Great post Nelle!
    I totally agree with what you wrote but could never write it so well!!

  14. #32

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    Wow Nelle, really well thought out and said! I totally agree with you, I just wouldn't have been able to word it as well as you

    Regarding bible versions again, Sarah, you can't go wrong with the NIV you bought, I'm sure you will really enjoy it! I haven't read the NLT so I really should one of these days. The Message I really enjoy, after years of growing up reading the bible it was getting a little stale (no offense to God!) to me and I find the Message brings it back to life for me and make me look at the Word afresh. It is not for everyone, but it is just what I needed to encourage me to get back into it.

    Definitely give that church a go, even if you find out that everyone is right about it, at least you have made your own mind up and don't have to wonder any more. It may turn out to be an awesome church too so it is worth finding out.

    Best of luck.

    ETA - Snap at your comment SaraJane!

  15. #33

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    Amazingly well said Nelle!! Gold you are

  16. #34

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    Hi,
    well im probably going off on my own here but just thought illd add a bit if you don't mind.

    personally i cant read the king james version of the bible. My husband does but i cant, the reason is the interpretation of what is said i don't understand. So for myself its pretty pointless me reading something i don't understand. i own the CEV contemporary English Bible(the promise study edition).

    I spent 1 whole day at Koorong Christian book store reading the same verse in many bibles. This one (CEV) i understood. after understanding it, it made reading other ones easier as i sorta had an idea as to what was being said. Picking a bible is very personal and its up to you to pick one your comfortable with. Another bible i love is "the message". As i said i think its more important that u understand what is being said than what version you choose. pick one that you like.

    Have you ever noticed that when you have a group of people reading the bible all reading 1 verse you will find the interpretation different. even if they are all reading the same version.

    In regards to picking a church this also takes a while you want a place where you can feel completely home. Some people like large and loud and some people like small and quiet. its a personal thing. i do agree tho that you should make this destion with God pray and ask that he reveal to you what church he would like you to attend ask for his leadership and guidance..Personally i don't tithe thats not because i don't agree with it, its because i feel when God puts it on my heart to give weather it be to a church or some random stranger then thats my giving. its not all about giving money sometimes it help time you know what i mean. Thats my opinion. But i must admit it does make my skin crawl when churches push so hard for tithing. ive been to some where the whole message is on that and not about the Lord.

  17. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahBarahBanana View Post
    Dustmite - Why do you say to stay away from the updated NIV is that the TNIV?
    I am guessing it is the TNIV. The big deal over the NIV and its updated version stems from the NIV committee wanting to rewrite the bible using politically correct terminology. The first time they indicated this desire they were met with a lot of opposition so they backed off. Then after a while they made it known they were going to move forward with it and it is my understanding that the new version has been updated/rewritten to be politically correct. It is my belief that we don't rewrite (add to or take away from) God's word half hazardly or because we don't like how it reads. I believe we make every effort to make solid literal translations and making things easier to understand so long as they are in context with the literal translation is not the same as being politically correct (in my never too humble opinion).

    Now on to the more touchier subject. Personally I have and would have a problem with any church who condones or makes excuses for homosexuality. The bible is "extremely" clear on the subject. That clarity though does not provide for or excuse bigotry. Following and preaching/teaching what the bible says in regards to homosexuality being a sin and what positions in the church a homosexual can poses is not bigotry. Treating them as sub-human or as an individual perversion not worthy of God's love (or ours as an extension of God's love) is in my book bigotry and as much a sin as the physical act of homosexuality.

    This is my personal belief on the matter. I realize not everyone and probably not everyone in this thread will agree and that is ok, I am not personally offended and will not post a scathing "you are going to hell" post for believing differently than me .

  18. #36

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    i believe that is a desition between them and God ultimitly. I do not encourage it but i do not abuse or put down ppl whom are. In fact i have a friend whom is gay and he knows i am a christian. He knows what the bible says. I figure im his christian support and he comes to me for advice and i do not lie about what needs to be said but respect his desition to do what he chooses as thats free will.

    you don't find many gays with christian best friends and i think this is a shame they need christians just like you or i do. God allows us to choose our own path and we then have to live with that. He loves the sinner not the sin and i choose to do the same.

    i really do hope all this came out right as im not trying to stir up trouble just saying an opinion.
    blessings

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