Circumcision...

Hi all,
Both of my son's were circumcised before they turned 2 weeks of age!
I left the final decision to my husband after much debate and research while I was pregnant with our first son.

My second son was done about 7 weeks ago and the gyno informed us that research results are now coming in that circumcision can reduce crevical cancer in sexual partners now as well as a list of other things like transfering of std's. This didn't guide our decision but made me fill alot better about having the procedure done.

My first son did let out a scream but came out to the waiting room like nothing had happened, he was normal and the ring fell off about 6 days later.

My second son did the same and returned to the waiting room asleep, so I don't think that it disturbed him in any way, his ring fell off about 8 days later.

I feel that it's a decision that you should make and if your not comfortable with it then don't have it done. I've found alot of people are for and against and will willingly give you advice but don't let it sway your decision, this is something you and your partner must decide together.

Hope this ramble helps and the best of luck with your decsion.

Snoopea

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There is a OB/GYN/paed that works at Westmead private that does it :)

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The one who did my ds is a pead/ surgeon at Sydney Children's.

It's not routinely offered at hospitals anymore because it is no longer considered a 'medical' surgery but a cosmetic one. It is also no longer covered by Medicare (but, as we discussed in another thread a while back, the cost of consultation and anesthesia is covered and that is generally the bulk of the costs.

Interestingly, I think it is becoming more popular. The wait to have DS1 done was 1 week, it was 3 weeks for DS2 and a PP has mentioned it's now 6 weeks.

I think that this is something that a man should decide for himself, not have decided for him.

Very contrary to the usual thing done in Spain, where my partner is from, I will not have our baby girl's ears pierced shortly after birth. This will definitely get us funny looks in Spain and they'll mostly assume she's a little boy, I'm sure. But I think it's something that a girl (or a boy, of course) should decide for herself. If my daughter comes to us when she's 15 or whenever, and asks to get her ears pierced, we'll doubtless allow that. She'll understand there will be pain and risk involved, but potential gain as well. It will be her decision, as it was for me when I was that age.

Personally I believe that altering a child's body in any way, except for real medical need, is mutilation. Even the socially acceptable things like ear and body-piercing. I think these are things that a person needs to decide on for him/herself, not have inflicted on her by others.

For something that can have such very important consequences as a decrease in sensitivity in what is, let's face it, a very important body part, I think that circumcision needs to be decided on by a man (or at least a boy old enough to understand the consequences of his decision). The possible reasons or not to do it may or may not be scientifically valid (though I find it hard to believe that evolution has failed us so badly as to produce a body part that would be better off missing some of it). But since they won't matter until the boy is grown up enough to be sexually active anyway, why not leave it for now and let him make his own decision when he is old enough.

At the least that way he'll own his decision and never regret you taking it for him when he was too young to do anything about it. (Like I do with my pierced ears!) It's not like an uncircumcised penis must remain that way throughout his life - why make such an irrevocable decision for your baby, when leaving the options open will allow him to make up his own mind about it later?

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The possible reasons or not to do it may or may not be scientifically valid (though I find it hard to believe that evolution has failed us so badly as to produce a body part that would be better off missing some of it). But since they won't matter until the boy is grown up enough to be sexually active anyway

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This is not quite true in the case of infection or other problems which can occur at any age. Our friend was 8 I think when he had to have it done.

A few obs do circs too, mine did and so did my friend's. Also a few paeds.

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This is not quite true in the case of infection or other problems which can occur at any age. Our friend was 8 I think when he had to have it done.

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True, there can be complications in either situation at an early age.

Wikipedia tells me that "a study of 354,297 births in Washington State from 1987-1996 found that immediate post-birth complications occurred at a rate of 0.2% in the circumcised babies and at a rate of 0.01% in the uncircumcised babies."

My suspicion is that, along with many such statistics, you can look at this and say "OMG circumcised babies have 20 times the risk of immediate post-birth complications than uncircumcised babies" or you can look at it and say "well, both of those risks are pretty low, aren't they, and not worry about it one way or the other.

I suspect that since, for example, you can get an infection from a circumcision operation or from not having a circumcised penis to start with, some of these risks balance out. I bet that people writing on either side of the debate will only tell you the risks in one direction, not the counterweighing risks in the other direction...

Aren't statistics fun! :) (I'm starting to think that all pregnant women should sign up for
a course in understanding risk and statistics as soon as they get the positive on the HPT - it's all such a minefield)

Although I am very much all for circumcision, I do understand all the different views and opinions each individual has. I agree with alot that tenar says regarding ear piercing etc, but I think as parents we often have to make many different decisions regarding what's best or not best for our children, and just hope that we make the right ones and evertything turns out fine.
Ear piercing isn't done for any health benefit though, like circumcision or immunisation. It's funny how immunisation doesn't come under as much scutiny as circumcision, when there are many many many mothers & fathers out there that swear their children's development or medical problems only stemmed from and became apparent after their child's immunisation. The studies are still inconclusive on this too regarding these detrimental side effects of immunisations.
In saying all this, I choose to immunise my children and running these risks involved. God forbid one developed any serious side effects/learning/developmental problems, it's a choice I make, as their parent, choosing what I personally believe is in the best interest of my child. I feel the same about the circumcision choice I have made for my boys too. It was in the best interest of them, not me, and I hope I made the right decision.. only time will tell, but it's a risk I was willing to take, feeling the benefits outweighed the risks.

:) Mel x

We have 2 sons and have decided not to have them circumcised. So far they have had no infections. I'm a believer that nature usually knows best. But each to their own.

I have to say that I think immunisation does come under Alot of scrutiny. And even though ear piercing isn't a health issue, I would say it has a pretty balanced debate as well!
As far as when I said circumcision is not routine, that's what the book said, and Im sure there are paeds and OB's who do it, but maybe they have to be requested. I have just got my book out, so as I don't make anything up. It's very interesting. It says that no national medical organisation in the world recommends routine circumcision of male infants. It also says that circumcision peaked in Australia at over 90% in the 50's and has dropped to just over 10% now. It then says that at the time of writing the book, public hospitals no longer provide circumcision for non medical reasons in Vic, NSW, WA and Tas. USA has over 50% being the only country where boys are circumcised for non religious reasons. NZ is just over 3%.
The reason I say all this is because it has made my decision not to circumcise. I found it very interesting. The book is called Heart to Heart Parenting, by Robin Grille. I know there's heaps more info out there, as well as personal choice, I just wanted to share why we made our decision(if we have a boy). xoxo

Both my sons are NOT circumcised and i would only have them done for medical reasons NT cosmetic reasons, IF when they are old enough they can decide themselves. In MY opionion it is not ok if NOT for medical reasons

Interesting post Mumma2Girls. Makes me consider what the WHO (World Health Organisation) has to say about circumscision.

I forgot to add that my 5yo son has a slight case of phimosis (forseskin too tight) but it's been responding very well to a hydro-cortisone cream which acts on loosening the skin slowly. For a while we were considering circumcision but the specialist seems to agree that that should be a last resort.

We made the desicion not to get our son circumcised as my husband is not, the decision was made easy.
My brother and his partner on the other hand, got their son done, because my brother is. I think the decision runs in families - if the father is then the son is and so on, same if the father is not.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that it looked nicer - can doodles really look nice anytime?

HA HA good one Ubba82 , doodles arent the most attractive things are they, well my hubbys is;)

I'm aware of quite a few families who don't see the need to "match them all up". My DH is circumsised... my boys don't think anything of the difference because they are not. If that logic applied to families then should daughters of big breasted mothers get implants if their smaller A cup breasts aren't the same as their mums?

That was a big part of my dh's reasoning- he wanted them to look the same. I think that's a bit ridiculous- if dh goes bald, will he shave ds's head too? (Actually, that's quite a possibility).

Very good point ubba- penises are not the most attractive organ :P

all 3 of my sons have been circumcised non of them have had any issues at all.

the way we made our decision was to make a list of pro's and cons. and weigh up the end result. we had a Dr Bell (in castle hill) for all 3 and he was fantastic. all done under a local my 22 month old was 4 weeks and my twins were 8 weeks but premi so they had to waite. we thought that looking the same and hurting were not valid pro and con reasons and left them of our list.
i have no regrets at all.

mellz- great post...

and FYI


Miss excited - whatever you decide to do will be the right thing. as a parent its our job to protect our children the best we can there are no right or wrong answers. we just hope for the best outcome.

Um, no one accused you of anything, and its ok to give your opinion. How you take others opinion is up to you.

i just put that in so people know that sometimes the way something is worded even in an opinion can be offencive. and i get sick of richous people getting on their high horses, in these tuchy subjects.

I think that this thread has been politely conducted so far. I agree it's a sensitive subject but like Lulu said, unless it's a directed opinion and an attempt has been made to avoid accusation than people should feel ok about voicing opinions. I believe that female circumsicion is akin to mutilation... but saying that shouldn't offend anyone because it is just my thoughts and I'm not directing them at anyone... unless I said it in a special support thread for members who agree with the procedure, that would clearly be wrong. Given that this is a general thread most opinions should be tolerated unless that are inflamatory and directed at a particular member. I understand that sensitive subjects deserve extra tact but sometimes people interpret a different perspective as being "on a high horse" simply only because it differs to their own opinion.

Wow - what a thread! I hadn't even given the issue of circumcision any real thought before now. After reading through all of this (and I should say we are not finding out if bubs is a boy or a girl) I went and asked DH what he thought. DH is circumsised and I had assumed that he would want a boy baby done for many of the reasons mentioned above but he just said "Why?" So since I don't feel the need, and DH doesnt feel the need, if I do have a boy bub growing inside me, looks like he won't be getting circumcised.

This is a personal decision and I respect that other parents may come to a different decision than us based on many factors including cultural, social, medical etc.

Kirsty J - as you say, we just hope that as parents our decisions provide the best outcomes for our children

BTW Bathsheba - I love your quote "Be kinder than necessary because everyone is fighting some kind of battle". Thats something I try to remember too :)

That's OK :) I get offended by some of the opinions expressed in threads like this too. I am amazed at some of the ways in which we justify the choices we have made. This is human nature (anyone see that thing on SBS the other night about decision-making?) But in the end, they are people's opinions, and I don't expect to agree with everyone.


I've just been searching the WHO website for what they have to say about male circumcision. As far as I can tell, nearly everything they talk about is in reference to adult male circumcision to (possibly - the clinical trials so far done are not very complete, afaict) reduce the transmission of HIV in heterosexual sex. They seem to say that:

- in countries with a very high rate of HIV, where the main transmission route is heterosexual sex (neither of which apply to Australia), circumcision of adult males might be a good idea because some of the trials suggest that it reduces the incidence of transmission

- they don't seem to make a recommendation for or against neonatal circumcision. As far as I can tell. They do comment on pain relief for neonatal circumcision, concluding that different anaesthetics are differently effective, with something called DPNB (whatever that is) being the most effective, but that none of the studied methods of pain relief removed the pain entirely.


I find it interesting that the US has a high rate of circumcision compared with other first-world countries. To me that seems consistent with some aspects of American culture. In particular the way that more extreme viewpoints seem to take hold in the US much more strongly than they do here, so you get people far on either side of any particular ethical/social argument. I think that these days this also has something to do with the internet, and I think it would be really interesting to know what percentage of very pro-circumcision websites are US-based, and what percentage of very anti-circumcision websites are US based, compared to the rest of the world. My guess would be that you'd get more of both extremes originating over there.

[QUOTE=tenar;1589607]I find it interesting that the US has a high rate of circumcision compared with other first-world countries. To me that seems consistent with some aspects of American culture.


LOL I didn't mention that my DH is American as well as Jewish...

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I raised it with my husband again the other night and he is happy to do some reading on the topic. If you know of any good articles you could pass on that would be great.

If a post offends you, you are welcome to report it and the moderating team will make a decision on what to do. I do not want this, so far civilised, thread to turn into an argument which needs to be closed.

I was once on a trip in Japan with other exchange students, many of whom were from the US. Using the traditional bathing facilities, all the boys were bathing together. Only one of the males was uncircumcised, something I know about only because as a result, he was teased and somewhat ostracised by the other Americans. So it does appear to be culturally different to Australia in that respect.

DS1 has once had a young (maybe 4 or 5yo?) boy point to his penis in the change rooms at swimming and say "funny pee pee". DS1 was too young to know what the boy said so wasn't phased and the mum apologised to me, but I wasn't upset - it was just a child noticing something different. TBH I was more concerned that he called it a pee pee and not a penis LOL! I think if either of the boys are ever teased about being different at any time, I will use it as an opportunity to teach them about difference not being a bad thing, and also diplomacy and acceptance of others.

That's a great post Mantaray!

I realise more than ever as my daughter gets older about teaching her to respect the differences of others, in all aspects of appearances.. but especially in differences of opinions. It's a beautiful thing to feel strongly and passionately about things in your life, but it's so important to be able to tolerate and be open minded to want to hear others. If you're too judgemental or closed minded to what others think, you lose out in learning so much.

How boring would the world be if we all thought, looked and acted the same!

I read something a while back about how 20 + years ago mothers were more inclined to be supportive of each other in their mothering efforts and journeys, rather than critical or judgemental. It talked about how times have changed so much and so many mothers now have such strong opinions on what is right and wrong... for everyone. Such as dummies, bottles, formulas, breast feeding, co-sleeping, discipline.. the list goes on and on as we all know! But it's so true.. you ALWAYS here what you should and shouldn't be doing and what is right and wrong. It means mothers are feeling more than ever the need to justify every little thing that they do with their babies/children - even to strangers! Or feel inadequate for being different etc.

it would just be so beautiful if we could all support each other more (I'm not necessarilly talking about here on the forum, but more so in hospitals, parenting groups, or especially passing by strangers in the shops!) including accepting the differences of everyone and rather than commenting.. just embracing them as something beautiful and try to 'learn' more rather than just say that's not right or wrong etc.

I think I'm rambing a little now! Sorry Ladies :D

I've enjoyed reading all the different posts on this subject!

Mel x

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That's a great post Mantaray!
I read something a while back about how 20 + years ago mothers were more inclined to be supportive of each other in their mothering efforts and journeys, rather than critical or judgemental. It talked about how times have changed so much and so many mothers now have such strong opinions on what is right and wrong... for everyone.

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Do you think that might be because nowadays we all have access to so much more and more varied information? We also have much less expert filtering of the information available to us.

I think when i was born (34 years ago), there was pretty much Doctor Spock and nothing else, wasn't there? So almost all mums were using the same book, with the same advice. And the advice in that book was given by an expert and published by a company whose editors believed that the information was expert (validation of sorts). I think it would be easier to agree on things in that situation.

Now so many of us have access to such a wide variety of new ideas and new information, that things are quite different. It makes for more variation, more discussion, more disagreement. I think it's interesting, but I also feel that it's riskier because anyone, with no qualification at all, can put up a website saying anything at all. People tend to trust what other people write, but it's much harder to tell if someone is being sensible or being a nutcase (not suggesting that anyone here is the latter, mind you - but we've all seen some pretty strange stuff on other websites), when all you have to go on is what they write online. I tend to be a bit cynical about this and to think that humans in general are too trusting to be safe online, if that make sense (which is not to say that I don't use internet forums like this, in a variety of topics, extensively).

I have to say that this thread is making me think harder about where the line is between opinions (I believe that anyone is entitled to think whatever they want about anything) and actions (I don't believe that all opinions should be translated into actions). And also about where the line is between choices that parents should make for their children and choices that they should not make for their children (questions of childrens' rights versus parental rights also partly come into that, in my opinion). It's certainly interesting stuff to think about.

However all that is probably subject for a different and more general thread. If I can ever marshall my thoughts clearly enough to post about it and solicit other peoples' ideas, I will (not today, though - got washing to do, dinner to cook, and animals to feed...).

This is all IMO

I dont usuallt get involved with these threads but i want to add that im all for parental choice especially for things that there may not be a difference as and adult(co slept vs lone slept, bfed or ff, cc or no cry)
but when is a physical part that is being removed for no reason apart from thinking it will be easier or its important to look similar to dad( or mum if its female circ in some cultures) Then i honestly dont think that is our decision as a parent to make
if some one figured out you MIGHT be smarter by cutting of your little toe would you always cut off your toe?
i was always the Black sheep in my family when it came to looks but i never questioned it beyond how come im the only one with blond hair and you all have dark hair... it wasnt a hard answer either that came back.

my son isnt done if he decides to later that is his choice. he will be taught how to clean himself properly as well as my daughter(we all know its easier for girls to get UTIs then boys)

Sorry Ladies... just want to clarify I wasn't in any way comparing circumcision choice to that of co-sleeping/bfeeding/dummies etc. That was in a completely different context just commenting on all the different things people have opinions about.

Circumcision is definitely a decision that should be taken much much more seriously!

I agree tenor.. definitely due to many reasons including the wealth of information out there now available to us as parents! There is sooo much more! The article did mention alot of factors involved as to why times have changed so much. But the beauty of the article was about how there once was this 'motherhood' and we all kinda stuck together, rather than worked against or opposite each other or contributed to making each other feel any less or inadequate in the decisions we chose to make for our children. There definitely wasn't alot/certainly not as much different choices/info available as there is now.. but just the beauty and simplicity of letting go of judgements and opinions of others, whilst still holding true to yourself and your own beliefs and opinions, and supporting each other regardless.

Like you said tenor.. definitely time for another thread.. sorry to run this one off in a different direction! :D

For all the families out there facing the decision of circumcising/not circumcising, wishing you all the best with your decisions whichever way you choose to go.

Mel x

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...especially for things that there may not be a difference as and adult(co slept vs lone slept, bfed or ff, cc or no cry)

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Elli hun I would say that all those things make a difference as an adult too.

yes they make a difference but not a physical difference iykwim? they are what make our personality or internal health

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yes they make a difference but not a physical difference iykwim? they are what make our personality or internal health

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Yep I see wym. Fair call :)

One of the greatest things about living in Australia is that we have CHOICES

whether you choose to circumcise or choose not to is your choice.

Thanks for the interesting reading, ladies.
I'm finding out in less than a week if we are having a boy or a girl. This is one of the reasons why I'm hoping my babe is a girl... DH and I do not agree on this issue.
In any case, I did want to thank you all for the positive stories on both sides of circumcision. It is good to know that my baby is more than likely going to be just fine whichever way we choose to go.
I just wish we both felt the same way... It makes this decision so very difficult. I feel for those who are in or have been in a similar position to us.

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One of the greatest things about living in Australia is that we have CHOICES

whether you choose to circumcise or choose not to is your choice.

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True, and all choices have consequences. With increased choice (power) comes increased responsibility. All choices are not equal. Some have greater ramifications than others. Choice shouldn't be confused with "preference". Whether you choose to have your son circumcised is not the same as choosing a hair colour (sorry if that's stating the obvious). When making the decision to cut or not to cut you are actually choosing whether you are prepared to deal with one set of future consequences or another. Now I'm not overlaying a value judgement on anyone when I say this. All I'm saying is that as well as defending your right to choose you need to be 100% accountable for that choice... after choosing a course of action the buck needs to then stop with you. I see many people demand a right to choose but then, when something goes wrong declare: "Oh but I didn't know....".
The right to choose is often demanded but also often backed away from when the consequence is unwanted. Choosing is often the easy bit... maintaining responsibility forever after is often not so easy. Applies to both sides of the circumcision debate... or any other aspect of parenting that involves a hard choice.

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True, and all choices have consequences. With increased choice (power) comes increased responsibility. All choices are not equal. Some have greater ramifications than others. Choice shouldn't be confused with "preference".

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Well said!!!!

Also, obviously, some choices are more reversable than others. Me, I have always been one to keep options open as long as possible. I guess I'll do that as a parent too. But the stakes seem to me to be so much higher, making decisions for other people not just for me. No wonder people feel so strongly about this kind of thing!

One of the most balanced articles on circumcision is the Wikipedia article on the topic - they have a NPOV (neutral point of view) policy which requires that they must not be biased towards one side or the other. It can be found here:

Circumcision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My personal opinion is that circumcision for non-medical reasons is a cosmetic procedure, and I believe it is not ethically appropriate for parents to make decisions about cosmetic alterations on behalf of their children.

My professional opinion is that the risks and costs associated with routine neonatal circumcision do not outweigh the risks and costs associated with the small reduction in the risk of UTI and the very rare male penile cancer that circumcision affords.

double post, sorry

Bathsheba,
We chose not to have our son done and have never regretted that decision. And I do agree with you about increased responsibility and consequences. This is one of the reasons I have left the decision up to my son. Not that Im afraid to make big decisions on his behalf but I just feel that if its not broken why fix it .Im sorry if my comment sounds flippant, that was not my intention.I just wanted to point out that we are given the privilege of choice and as you said we then have to live with the choices we make. It is our child's birthright that we as parents be as educated as possible when making a decision such as this, and excepting future ramifications if something was to go wrong.
My son is 15 and never had a problem and I hope it stays that way.

I totally agree with your post Kitten :) Well said. BTW "consequences" don't only mean "bad things" a consequence can also be a good outcome. I VERY much agree with the "not broken, don't fix" philosophy as well. My 5yo son may develop a phimosis problen with his foreskin... but at the moment it's borderline "ok" and responding well to medication. More than happy to take a 'wait and see' approach.

We chose to circumcise my son. It was done when he was 4 weeks old using the plastibell. He cried only from the local needle then came out talking to me in the waiting room. Had no problems with it what so ever. We chose to for health reason and also because DH is. I am so glad we did it and would also do it for any future sons we may have.