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I'm aware of quite a few families who don't see the need to "match them all up". My DH is circumsised... my boys don't think anything of the difference because they are not. If that logic applied to families then should daughters of big breasted mothers get implants if their smaller A cup breasts aren't the same as their mums?
That was a big part of my dh's reasoning- he wanted them to look the same. I think that's a bit ridiculous- if dh goes bald, will he shave ds's head too? (Actually, that's quite a possibility).
Very good point ubba- penises are not the most attractive organ :P
all 3 of my sons have been circumcised non of them have had any issues at all.
the way we made our decision was to make a list of pro's and cons. and weigh up the end result. we had a Dr Bell (in castle hill) for all 3 and he was fantastic. all done under a local my 22 month old was 4 weeks and my twins were 8 weeks but premi so they had to waite. we thought that looking the same and hurting were not valid pro and con reasons and left them of our list.
i have no regrets at all.
mellz- great post...
and FYI
Miss excited - whatever you decide to do will be the right thing. as a parent its our job to protect our children the best we can there are no right or wrong answers. we just hope for the best outcome.
Um, no one accused you of anything, and its ok to give your opinion. How you take others opinion is up to you.
i just put that in so people know that sometimes the way something is worded even in an opinion can be offencive. and i get sick of richous people getting on their high horses, in these tuchy subjects.
I think that this thread has been politely conducted so far. I agree it's a sensitive subject but like Lulu said, unless it's a directed opinion and an attempt has been made to avoid accusation than people should feel ok about voicing opinions. I believe that female circumsicion is akin to mutilation... but saying that shouldn't offend anyone because it is just my thoughts and I'm not directing them at anyone... unless I said it in a special support thread for members who agree with the procedure, that would clearly be wrong. Given that this is a general thread most opinions should be tolerated unless that are inflamatory and directed at a particular member. I understand that sensitive subjects deserve extra tact but sometimes people interpret a different perspective as being "on a high horse" simply only because it differs to their own opinion.
Wow - what a thread! I hadn't even given the issue of circumcision any real thought before now. After reading through all of this (and I should say we are not finding out if bubs is a boy or a girl) I went and asked DH what he thought. DH is circumsised and I had assumed that he would want a boy baby done for many of the reasons mentioned above but he just said "Why?" So since I don't feel the need, and DH doesnt feel the need, if I do have a boy bub growing inside me, looks like he won't be getting circumcised.
This is a personal decision and I respect that other parents may come to a different decision than us based on many factors including cultural, social, medical etc.
Kirsty J - as you say, we just hope that as parents our decisions provide the best outcomes for our children
BTW Bathsheba - I love your quote "Be kinder than necessary because everyone is fighting some kind of battle". Thats something I try to remember too :)
That's OK :) I get offended by some of the opinions expressed in threads like this too. I am amazed at some of the ways in which we justify the choices we have made. This is human nature (anyone see that thing on SBS the other night about decision-making?) But in the end, they are people's opinions, and I don't expect to agree with everyone.
I've just been searching the WHO website for what they have to say about male circumcision. As far as I can tell, nearly everything they talk about is in reference to adult male circumcision to (possibly - the clinical trials so far done are not very complete, afaict) reduce the transmission of HIV in heterosexual sex. They seem to say that:
- in countries with a very high rate of HIV, where the main transmission route is heterosexual sex (neither of which apply to Australia), circumcision of adult males might be a good idea because some of the trials suggest that it reduces the incidence of transmission
- they don't seem to make a recommendation for or against neonatal circumcision. As far as I can tell. They do comment on pain relief for neonatal circumcision, concluding that different anaesthetics are differently effective, with something called DPNB (whatever that is) being the most effective, but that none of the studied methods of pain relief removed the pain entirely.
I find it interesting that the US has a high rate of circumcision compared with other first-world countries. To me that seems consistent with some aspects of American culture. In particular the way that more extreme viewpoints seem to take hold in the US much more strongly than they do here, so you get people far on either side of any particular ethical/social argument. I think that these days this also has something to do with the internet, and I think it would be really interesting to know what percentage of very pro-circumcision websites are US-based, and what percentage of very anti-circumcision websites are US based, compared to the rest of the world. My guess would be that you'd get more of both extremes originating over there.
[QUOTE=tenar;1589607]I find it interesting that the US has a high rate of circumcision compared with other first-world countries. To me that seems consistent with some aspects of American culture.
LOL I didn't mention that my DH is American as well as Jewish...
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I raised it with my husband again the other night and he is happy to do some reading on the topic. If you know of any good articles you could pass on that would be great.
If a post offends you, you are welcome to report it and the moderating team will make a decision on what to do. I do not want this, so far civilised, thread to turn into an argument which needs to be closed.
I was once on a trip in Japan with other exchange students, many of whom were from the US. Using the traditional bathing facilities, all the boys were bathing together. Only one of the males was uncircumcised, something I know about only because as a result, he was teased and somewhat ostracised by the other Americans. So it does appear to be culturally different to Australia in that respect.
DS1 has once had a young (maybe 4 or 5yo?) boy point to his penis in the change rooms at swimming and say "funny pee pee". DS1 was too young to know what the boy said so wasn't phased and the mum apologised to me, but I wasn't upset - it was just a child noticing something different. TBH I was more concerned that he called it a pee pee and not a penis LOL! I think if either of the boys are ever teased about being different at any time, I will use it as an opportunity to teach them about difference not being a bad thing, and also diplomacy and acceptance of others.
That's a great post Mantaray!
I realise more than ever as my daughter gets older about teaching her to respect the differences of others, in all aspects of appearances.. but especially in differences of opinions. It's a beautiful thing to feel strongly and passionately about things in your life, but it's so important to be able to tolerate and be open minded to want to hear others. If you're too judgemental or closed minded to what others think, you lose out in learning so much.
How boring would the world be if we all thought, looked and acted the same!
I read something a while back about how 20 + years ago mothers were more inclined to be supportive of each other in their mothering efforts and journeys, rather than critical or judgemental. It talked about how times have changed so much and so many mothers now have such strong opinions on what is right and wrong... for everyone. Such as dummies, bottles, formulas, breast feeding, co-sleeping, discipline.. the list goes on and on as we all know! But it's so true.. you ALWAYS here what you should and shouldn't be doing and what is right and wrong. It means mothers are feeling more than ever the need to justify every little thing that they do with their babies/children - even to strangers! Or feel inadequate for being different etc.
it would just be so beautiful if we could all support each other more (I'm not necessarilly talking about here on the forum, but more so in hospitals, parenting groups, or especially passing by strangers in the shops!) including accepting the differences of everyone and rather than commenting.. just embracing them as something beautiful and try to 'learn' more rather than just say that's not right or wrong etc.
I think I'm rambing a little now! Sorry Ladies :D
I've enjoyed reading all the different posts on this subject!
Mel x
Do you think that might be because nowadays we all have access to so much more and more varied information? We also have much less expert filtering of the information available to us.:
I think when i was born (34 years ago), there was pretty much Doctor Spock and nothing else, wasn't there? So almost all mums were using the same book, with the same advice. And the advice in that book was given by an expert and published by a company whose editors believed that the information was expert (validation of sorts). I think it would be easier to agree on things in that situation.
Now so many of us have access to such a wide variety of new ideas and new information, that things are quite different. It makes for more variation, more discussion, more disagreement. I think it's interesting, but I also feel that it's riskier because anyone, with no qualification at all, can put up a website saying anything at all. People tend to trust what other people write, but it's much harder to tell if someone is being sensible or being a nutcase (not suggesting that anyone here is the latter, mind you - but we've all seen some pretty strange stuff on other websites), when all you have to go on is what they write online. I tend to be a bit cynical about this and to think that humans in general are too trusting to be safe online, if that make sense (which is not to say that I don't use internet forums like this, in a variety of topics, extensively).
I have to say that this thread is making me think harder about where the line is between opinions (I believe that anyone is entitled to think whatever they want about anything) and actions (I don't believe that all opinions should be translated into actions). And also about where the line is between choices that parents should make for their children and choices that they should not make for their children (questions of childrens' rights versus parental rights also partly come into that, in my opinion). It's certainly interesting stuff to think about.
However all that is probably subject for a different and more general thread. If I can ever marshall my thoughts clearly enough to post about it and solicit other peoples' ideas, I will (not today, though - got washing to do, dinner to cook, and animals to feed...).
This is all IMO
I dont usuallt get involved with these threads but i want to add that im all for parental choice especially for things that there may not be a difference as and adult(co slept vs lone slept, bfed or ff, cc or no cry)
but when is a physical part that is being removed for no reason apart from thinking it will be easier or its important to look similar to dad( or mum if its female circ in some cultures) Then i honestly dont think that is our decision as a parent to make
if some one figured out you MIGHT be smarter by cutting of your little toe would you always cut off your toe?
i was always the Black sheep in my family when it came to looks but i never questioned it beyond how come im the only one with blond hair and you all have dark hair... it wasnt a hard answer either that came back.
my son isnt done if he decides to later that is his choice. he will be taught how to clean himself properly as well as my daughter(we all know its easier for girls to get UTIs then boys)
Sorry Ladies... just want to clarify I wasn't in any way comparing circumcision choice to that of co-sleeping/bfeeding/dummies etc. That was in a completely different context just commenting on all the different things people have opinions about.
Circumcision is definitely a decision that should be taken much much more seriously!
I agree tenor.. definitely due to many reasons including the wealth of information out there now available to us as parents! There is sooo much more! The article did mention alot of factors involved as to why times have changed so much. But the beauty of the article was about how there once was this 'motherhood' and we all kinda stuck together, rather than worked against or opposite each other or contributed to making each other feel any less or inadequate in the decisions we chose to make for our children. There definitely wasn't alot/certainly not as much different choices/info available as there is now.. but just the beauty and simplicity of letting go of judgements and opinions of others, whilst still holding true to yourself and your own beliefs and opinions, and supporting each other regardless.
Like you said tenor.. definitely time for another thread.. sorry to run this one off in a different direction! :D
For all the families out there facing the decision of circumcising/not circumcising, wishing you all the best with your decisions whichever way you choose to go.
Mel x
Elli hun I would say that all those things make a difference as an adult too.:
yes they make a difference but not a physical difference iykwim? they are what make our personality or internal health
Yep I see wym. Fair call :):
One of the greatest things about living in Australia is that we have CHOICES
whether you choose to circumcise or choose not to is your choice.