Sleep - how much at night?

Well I'll be the odd one out and say that at 3 months DS was still feeding 3-4hrly around the clock :) I think we had one promising night of 5 hrs sleep, but only that one night! LOL.

His 'bedtime' has always seemed to be around 9.30/10pm. By bedtime I mean he did know nightsleeps from day sleeps. He'd wake, feed and go straight back to sleep, no real awake time through the night. Day sleeps varied.. sometimes he catnapped for 20mins at a time.. other times he'd sleep up to an hr (if I was lucky!)

Even now his bed time is 9.30/10pm. But that actually works out well for us, for DH to have time with him when he gets home, and shower with him before bed.

HOW do you girls get your babies to sleep through? DS is 4 months and I get six hours out of him one night in three and seven hours twice, bedtime is 7.30-8 (routine is naked play, bath, massage dry, story, feed and prayers, then lullaby if he didn't fall asleep with his feed), he wakes up of his own accord between 9 and 11 for another feed, then we can be up all night or have him do his big sleep after that, if he chooses to have a big sleep night. How do you just say "ooh, back to sleep" and have them do that? I am having so many issues forcing DS to go to sleep and he just won't go to sleep in his bed, how do you do it?

thanks for your advice guys
she WAS sleeping from 10.30pm until at least 5am, sometimes 6,7 or 8am just a few weeks ago (and this was breast feeding too), but now she is waking at four hourly intervals, i just don't get it.

Even when I do the sleepy feed at 10.30pm, where I just feed her practicially in her sleep, she still wakes at 1am for a feed. I just don't get it. I have bought some different teats today (faster flowing) hoping that she will take more milk during the day, as she only takes about 90mls per feed, which just doesn't seem to be enough, especially when she does giant spews a lot of the time.

With regards to the dummy, I am interested in weaning her off this, if it could be done without too much upset, as I don't want to rock the boat too much at the moment because her sleep is so off. Its been about 2 weeks now, I guess I can't keep blaming it on a growth spurt.

She does sometimes sleep well during the day. She tries to wake up after 45 minutes, but if i get her back to sleep she can sometimes last 3 hours (not often) but more often than not around an hour or maybe sometimes two hours.

last night it took an hour to actually get her to sleep at about 10.30pm she dropped off, woke at 2am for a feed, then 6am and was up for the day. Have only just managed to get her back down for a nap at 10.30am. She just fights sleep.

Oh well, I guess it won't last forever?!

ps, JAC - how do you use dummy to settle, but not for sleep...? do you mean you use the dummy while you are calming bubs before putting down to sleep, then take dummy out? or how?

i wish she would learn to even sleep with me in my bed, it would be nice to take her back to bed with me for a cuddle, but she won't sleep unless she is wrapped tightly and i have to sort of hold her, and even then this morning that didnt work, she wouldn't have a bare of it. Is there a way to introduce/encourage co-sleeping with the baby next to you? I am desperate for some sleep but by the time I have gotten her down for a nap I have missed the boat for me to go back to sleep, as I seem to be suffering from a bit of insomnia.

Emma,
I use the dummy to stop the cry and distract him but once he settles down it generally falls out after which I will use patting to sleep rather than replace the dummy as he has calmed down. If your bub does not let go of dummy I would take it away once baby is calm and see how you go (rather than having her fall asleep with it in her mouth)?? My baby fights sleep too. I have found that if I put him to bed sooner rather than later (both during the day between feeds and at night) he struggles with it less. I think being over tired can make them fight sleep more. I have read that at 3 months (actually even up to 6 months) they should only stay up 1-2 hours between feeds. I used to try to keep my baby up for as long as he was happy to "tire him out" but since putting him back to bed sooner (regardless of whether he looks tired or not) has helped with day sleeps. I think your baby just wakes at night because she is hungry and still having her growth spurt so I would just feed her as soon as she wakes and put her back to bed. The waking at night will pass when she is ready. Don't forget they have small tummies that fill quickly but also empty quickly so need filling often as they are growing.

Ryn - He must be tired after the late feed, even if he appears not to be, so I would just persist in trying to settle him back to sleep as soon as he is fed. I use the "pat-shhh" technique which involves placing baby awake, but calm, in bed then patting them to sleep while saying "shhh" if they are making a noise (crying). I had tremendous struggles getting my baby to sleep before using this method. The key is to continue patting for 5-10 minutes after baby LOOKS like they have fallen asleep before leaving them. My baby will wriggle around quite madly for up to 5 mins while I do this, then eventually shuts his eyes (though I ensure roon is very dark so have to squint to make sure). I also turn my head away so that he is not looking at my face - I find that he gets a bit bored of the monotony of the patting in the darkness and this helps a tired baby decide to "nod off". I don't leave though for about 10 mins after this as I sometimes need to start patting again if he wriggles awake. I never ever let him fall asleep on me or in my bed so that's how I get him to sleep in his cot all night, but it takes a long time and a lot of patience. What does your baby do when he "won't go back to sleep" after the late feed?

When DS won't sleep:

Pre-midnight:
1. Put him in his crib. Try the lullaby and rocking when he starts to complain (ie straight away). Pick him up when he screams.
2. Repeat step one for either as long as I am able or until he screams the second he goes in.

Post midnight:
3. Jiggle, sway and lullaby/ssshing - keeps him quiet if nothing else. For up to half an hour.
4. When asleep/almost asleep put in crib, keeping with lullaby for 5 mins. Pick up if crying and awake. Until I can't stand any more (2-3 attempts).
5. Try feeding again.
6. See if he'll stay asleep in my arms if I lie down in bed - if he wakes, try feeding in bed, try up to 3 times (with up to half-hour of jigging and lullaby in between).
7. See if it's a light issue - will he feed to sleep with the light on?
8. If that hasn't worked then chances are it's getting up time anyway, give up altogether and go into kitchen and make drink for me and DH. Watch DS grin at me for half an hour before falling asleep.

He does get some light, fitful sleep at night but I don't and I find it impossible to sleep during the day so am just supertired after a brief nap once DS does sleep. Please note I also have a very bad back from the car accident a while ago.

I found that getting up 15 mins before Erynn is due to wake and giveing her a night feed is the best way of doing it. I was doind a dream feed at 10pm but then she would want another feed at 2am so we have been waiting til 12am then she wants another feed at 4am which we have been gradually pushing out by 15mins. DH and I have a book that we write down the times of her feeds and have used it ever since we bought her home from the hospital. Its great because it allows me to see any patterns which are emerging. Erynn feeds 3 to four hourly during the day but her bath and bottle is always between 5.30 and 6.30. I have also noticed that keeping her up for more than an hour was making things worse. Erynn is back in bed after 45mins and she self settles and snoozes for a couple of hours at a time. Just remember that keeping a little one up for over an hour can be too much for them. I read an article in a magazine that said sleep begets sleep.

Hugs

Kim

Ryn,
How much sleep does he get during the day then and how much sleep over a 24 hour period? Does he have anything wrong physically/medically ie. windy tummy, reflux/colic which might be keeping him awake? Also, is he getting adequate feeds during the day to ensure he is ready for a long stretch of sleep at night?? My MIL would suggest to you starting solids at his age to help him sleep/settle (1tsp rice cereal a day, gradually increase). I am going to start my 3mth old on this soon despite recommendations to start at 4-6mths. Being a boy, I think they need HEAPS of food as they grow so fast. They "used" to start solids at 3mths or when baby reached 10pounds+ when I was a kid. Who knows, it could be worth considering for your boy.

Ryn - Please don't feel pressured to get him to sleep all night. It's very normal for babies to wake.. and "sleeping through" is counted from 5hr stretches anyway. So many girls here can tell you that solids/formula/whatever made little difference to sleeping patterns. Keep in mind too, that if their tummy isn't mature enough for solids, it can cause more problems with wind and belly pains etc.

I think what you're doing sounds good. Sleeping in your arms or in bed with you isn't a bad thing. Sometimes I just wouldnt' put DS down in his cot even once asleep, just so I knew we could both get a rest. I was known to strap him to me in the hugabub and sleep in the recliner (that way I knew he wouldn't fall off). Sometimes just getting that bit of rest yourself helps you feel better about having a wakeful bub.

Hope you can feel more rested soon. Try not to stress about it, he'll get it together eventually *hugs*

Of course Ryn should not feel pressured to get her baby to sleep through the night, however, it is totally reasonable that she would want her baby to sleep at night (even if just a 5-6hr stretch), particularly if she is not getting sleeping herself during the day. Starting solids (and by solids I mean tiny amounts of rice ceral ONLY) could be absolutely out of the question for Ryn, however it does not hurt to consider all options. If Ryn's baby is unsettled at night it is important to look at whether he is in pain, hungry or unable to nod off on his own (maybe overtired or difficulty switching off without assistance). All reasons are vaild IMO. That fact that Ryn has to jiggle her baby all night to keep him from crying indicates that pain or hunger are more likey to be the reason.

Well, last night he did 9-12,12-2,4-6,7-9 asleep (yup, 2 hours then one hour awake). I'm shattered! He wouldn't just feed and sleep. I know nights like this are rare and it's probably because he was unsettled that he'd not seen his Dad all day, but I think this is why I want him to sleep more - just so I know I will be rested in the morning! It could also be that I keep trying to put him awake into his crib and he's really not having it... so that messes up all his sleep.

Jac, current WHO guidelines are 6-9m for solids, not 4-6 months. Due to allergies in the family (well, just in DH, but never mind!) I'm not starting solids until after six months even if the guidelines were still 4-6m. It is not normal for a baby to need to feed more than every two hours, that's possibly why he wouldn't just feed to sleep. Also, my sister was sleeping through from 8w, my mum introduced solids at 3m and she didn't sleep again until 14m old... I can cope with unsettled nights (just!) but not all nighters every night.

As for sleep diaries:
Night 1: sleeps 8-10,10-11,11-4,4-7.
Night 2: sleeps 8-9,9-11,11-2,2-6,6-8.
Night 3: sleeps 8-9,9-10,10-5 then up for the day.
Night 4: sleeps 8-9,9-10,10-12,12-4,4-7.
Night 5: sleeps 8-10,10-11,11-5,5-6,6-7.

There's no way I can predict a wake and therefore wake him before this (please note I'm using whole hours, most mornings we're acutally up around 7.30 but whole hours are easier).

Day sleeps:
Start the day at 7.30
Awake until about 9.30-10, then sleeps for up to an hour.
Awake until about 12-1, then sleeps for 1-2 hours.
Awake until about 4ish, then sleeps until 4.30-5.
7pm naked time, 7.15 bathtime, 7.30 massage dry, 7.40 Hungry Caterpillar, 7.45 Feeding and prayers, then hopefully sleep or lullaby/jiggle and sleep.

This is a rough guide, he will not sleep before at least 90 minutes is up and tbh I'm in so much pain most of the time that I'm happy for him to feed to sleep after 2-2.5 hours awake. His bedtime routine is often shorter than this, he usually starts to say he's tired as I'm getting him out the bath so I have been making his bath a little earlier just so he's starting to be tired just as we say good night to Daddy - most nights he feeds whilst I recite his story. If he's not quite tired then we cuddle up on the bed to read the story.

DS also has reflux, so he's only just been OK with me putting him in his bed at all flat on his back (it is slightly raised, but he prefers his chair still). He has only just started to be OK with a play gym, it's the "on his back" thing; he often rolls onto his side to play. Day sleeps are in the carseat/pram, in the sling or his chair. I have tried having him sleep on his side, which works only slightly better, and on his tummy (and yes, I am aware of SIDS guidelines so couldn't sleep anyway when I tried that) and he slept worse, so aren't repeating that one.

Other things that make night sleeps worse is any similarity to day sleeps - so if he sees his bedtime bunny in the day, he associates it with play so won't sleep. If I hum his lullaby in the day just as he falls asleep (to make him associate it with sleep) then he just naps all night. I won't even contemplate letting him have a day sleep in his bed as that really throws him. Could just be that he's a poor sleeper, but it just seems that every time I let him have a bedtime thing outside of bedtime he sleeps worse.

Anyway, just banging my head against a brick wall really, I am soooo jealous of the "good" mothers (to use my mum's words) whose babies sleep through. Or whose babies will just go to sleep without them. Or even those babies who sleep for more than an hour in the day and don't stay up for 2-3 hours at a time.

I've also tried letting him do his night sleeps in his carseat, that doesn't work either. My next plan is to stay up all night rocking DS in his chair every time he wakes up as that does send him back to sleep, but I need some sleep before I'm able to do that!

ryn, have you considered getting some help, like a day stay program, or failing that, the residential stay at somewhere like qec? i went to a day stay and previously had a baby that would ONLY sleep in my arms. She now goes to sleep in her cot each time and has learnt to fall asleep with only minimal assistance. Just a thought. It took a bit of hard work, but the help I got was so beneficial, otherwise I would still be on the couch holding the baby while I doze in and out of sleep. Day and Night. We still have off days, but compared to how she was before, the difference is just amazing.

ps SRV, last night she slept thru again, so i am PRAYING the 3-4 hour wakenings were due to a growth spurt and we are back on track now, only time will tell. Oh and i bought new teats, I was using slow flow, and am now using medium flow, so I can kind of work it so that I get more milk into her. It is a bit of a mission though, but hopefully if I can get her to take a full feed before bed this will put her in a good position to sleep longer. Hopefully. How did you go with trying to get yours down earlier?

Oh Ryn, I totally hear you. DS only now manages stretches from about 10pm to 6am. We had periods of wakefulness that absolutely wore me out. Would wake as soon as I put him down, or would sleep for only 20-40mins. I was a complete wreck the next day. Needless to say nothing got done around the house those days! Day sleeps he's pretty much always been hopeless.. went through many stages of only 20 minute sleeps. I found the pram invaluable for day sleeps for a while there, coz I could rock him back to sleep at the first sign of waking up too soon!

Is it a constant thing, or looking back does it seem to be stages? I found the very tiring wakefulness led up to teething or something (but I never picked up on it until teeth actually cut through hehe :rolleyes: )

But Ryn, you are sooo not alone, and a baby's sleeping pattern means nothing re good/bad mothers. I think you're being a great mum persevering with comforting him. Chin up, things will get better.

Jac - I didn't mean to imply that people here were pressuring her, just I completely understand what it's like to read & hear about babies sleeping through when you've got a wakeful bub, but it's actually very normal for a baby to wake frequently, especially a breastfed baby, and we tend to forget that and think that we're doing something wrong if they're not sleeping like some other bubs.

I'm still looking for a sleep school near me (Sussex in the UK) but would be prepared to travel! Although maybe not to Australia LOL.

oh dam i didnt realise you were in the uk...!!!! well surely they must have something similar...? best of luck.

Ryn - Is he taking any meds for the reflux? We are on Zantac and that he really helped settle the pain of reflux (to a point). I realise that the WHO recommends 6+mths for solids but I will start small amounts of bland solids sooner as I believe it will help settle my baby (personal choice that I think will be best for us but obviously not for everyone). I won't introduce anything but rice cereal mixed with breat milk until after 6 months.

I second the suggestion about getting some assistance from a sleep centre too as it sounds like your baby is particularly challenging to settle to sleep. While my baby sleeps well at night our days are similar to yours (less sleep actually) so I am booking into a day clinic to see if there is anything more I can be doing to help my baby get more daytime sleep. I figure it can't hurt and I want as much info as possible. Do you have anything like that that you can access?

You can tell me to go jump but I believe you should persist in getting him to sleep in his bed day and night, otherwise it is reasonable for him not to want to sleep there at night if he has other (better) options during the day. Just a suggestion - and I realise it is tough going but I think it might work if you perservere with teaching him to sleep in his bed during the day (or at least for one day sleep). I find if my baby has no day sleeps in his bed (like if we are out and about for the day or whatever) he is harder to settle there at night. I will stand there and pat him in his bed for what feels like forever and I think I bore him to sleep evertually!! He knows I'm not going to pick him up (only if he's quite distressed) and he eventually settles with my presence, and patting, only. Is your baby quite distraught in the night when unsettled or just grizzly?

The reflux is only mild, so he has no meds... although a friend's son has really, really severe reflux and they still won't give him meds, stupid penny-pinching evil NHS.

When DS is unsettled at first it's just grizzly, but within a minute he's screaming, so he does get picked up. Even sitting and patting him he still gets distressed.

When he's sleeping through I'll put him in his bed for all sleeps, but if I do just one day sleep in there he's up all night. I mean ALL night. My mother tried it last time she was down (against my explicit instructions of "no, do not do that") and I had an awful night. So he naps in his chair now!

Ryn - I just checked out the lalecheleague website, and they dont' have online articles like the ABA does. But I notice they have a leaflet or something about Nighttime Parenting. Sounds like it might offer some gentle solutions if that's what you're after. Are you a member with them at all? If you think feeding or anything could have anything to do with his wakefulness they may be able to help?