Un-schooling Discussion

I understand what you're saying and unschoolers are definitely not fans of standardized anything, that's a very accurate generalisation lol. But the motivation is not to have it seen as 'best' or adopted across the board but as a valid educational choice legally speaking so that the regulation and testing and hoops and red tape for those that do want to unschool are more suited to the practice. Right now it is quite difficult in some states and is really just paperwork for the sake of filling out paperwork, it doesn't reflect unschooling or give an accurate picture of what is actually happening in an unschooling environment so it benefits neither the parent or Government side to be doing it in this manner.

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I understand what you're saying and unschoolers are definitely not fans of standardized anything, that's a very accurate generalisation lol. But the motivation is not to have it seen as 'best' or adopted across the board but as a valid educational choice legally speaking so that the regulation and testing and hoops and red tape for those that do want to unschool are more suited to the practice. Right now it is quite difficult in some states and is really just paperwork for the sake of filling out paperwork, it doesn't reflect unschooling or give an accurate picture of what is actually happening in an unschooling environment so it benefits neither the parent or Government side to be doing it in this manner.

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That makes more sense then - although I am not sure research would persuade the adoption of a better system to allow unschooling - plenty of educational practices in schools are not supported by research but they still happen - it seems to me that many decisions in the educational sector are driven more by politics than based upon research.

Yeah, I know you're probably right. I think it is just a matter of attacking it from as many angles as possible, there is campaigning to politicians and such also but it is not a very weighty subject for them to address because whilst it is a growing number of people who home educate and unschool to do so, it is still a tiny minority in the scheme of things. When you look at a state like Victoria where you essentially just sign a waver vs NSW where you have to write plans and reports and have a home visit, it does make you wonder what the driving force is behind why they have basically no regulation in one state and an overbearing amount in another. The double edge sword though is the risk that pushing the issue could make things head in the wrong direction (more testing, more regulation, more hoops, every state suddenly as difficult or worse than NSW) and I think that is why they want to have some research behind them.

JF - I started reading a book called 'Free to Learn' by Peter Gray - I thought was one you specified but fairly sure that the author you said was female? - I couldn't find the thread though. I didn't know if you could maybe post the stuff you put in the locked thread about reading material in this one?

As I said I am interested, not from a 'how to unschool' perspective but more in the information about 'how we learn etc.' - I have been reading "Last Child in the Woods" by Richard Louv - which touches on the natural environments impact on learning.

That is an interesting book also but the one I wrote about is a different one by the same name by Pam Laricchia. I'm sure you'd get something out of it (it is the one I gift curious friends and family) but if you are more interested in the how we learn side of things then John Taylor Gatto (particularly Dumbing Us Down) and John Holt (particularly How Children Fail and How Children Learn) are probably more what you're looking for. You might find this ted talk about math interesting also Dan Meyer: Math class needs a makeover | Talk Video | TED (there is a transcript if you prefer to read) and there are other ted talks (Sir Ken Robinson in particular). Also the book Free Schools by David Gillespie might interest you, it is Australian and about how all the things we think matter (public vs private, co-ed vs single sex, class sizes that sort of thing) don't really according to the research, it is a good read for anyone picking a school I think.

And here are my previous recommendations...

The books I recommend to read first are Free to Learn and Free to Live both by Pam Laricchia (the first is also great for giving to family to help explain it to them). She also has a free email introductory series you can subscribe to if you google her name and living joyfully her site should come up, it is an email once or twice week and it is 10 emails I think (been a while) and explores topics gradually to give you time to digest and reflect. Another well known unschooler Sandra Dodd who is currently in Australia for ALLive (was, there is information about what went on at the events on her site) gathers writing and thoughts from all sorts of unschoolers and collates them at her website (with permission and credit given), a lot of those writings come from the yahoo group that began many years ago 'Always Learning' but that is a closed group more specifically for unschoolers or those interested in becoming unschoolers but she also runs an open FB page Radical Unschooling Info that can be accessed without joining and read by anyone and much comes from there also (a lot of long term, well respected unschoolers are there) - she also has a brilliant book and a blog of inspiration snippets and thoughts shared daily (Just Add Light and Stir). There is also Danya and Joe Martin, some might have been exposed to their family as they were on wife swap USA, their main FB group is Whole Life Unschooling and they also have a standalone website, they are quite controversial because of media attention. There is a grown unschooler who pens a blog, her name is Idzie Desmarais and you can find it by googling her name, she recently wrote about how unschooling is not relaxed homeschooling which seems quite relevant to the discussion we have had here. There is John Holt who is the person to have first used the term unschooling, his books are great reads. There is John Taylor Gatto who also has brilliant books. There is a lot of information out there, these are just some of the many people who have spoken or written about unschooling and these people will lead you to other people and works.

Sooo many good TED talks. I love Sir Ken Robinson. And this guy is super cool http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/Hacks...-Lo;search%3A/

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That is an interesting book also but the one I wrote about is a different one by the same name by Pam Laricchia. I'm sure you'd get something out of it (it is the one I gift curious friends and family) but if you are more interested in the how we learn side of things then John Taylor Gatto (particularly Dumbing Us Down) and John Holt (particularly How Children Fail and How Children Learn) are probably more what you're looking for. You might find this ted talk about math interesting also Dan Meyer: Math class needs a makeover | Talk Video | TED (there is a transcript if you prefer to read) and there are other ted talks (Sir Ken Robinson in particular). Also the book Free Schools by David Gillespie might interest you, it is Australian and about how all the things we think matter (public vs private, co-ed vs single sex, class sizes that sort of thing) don't really according to the research, it is a good read for anyone picking a school I think.

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I looked up the Free Schools one at the Library and it has about 8 copies and it has 25 reserves against it!! Obviously a popular read. It will get round to me at some point - but our criteria have always been as long as is not known as a 'bad' school then distance from home is the most important thing - as to me is important to maximize the time spent outside of school. John Taylor Gatto -I have had Dumbing us Down out from the library quite a while back now - I really didn't like it - too American for me, there didn't seem to be much evidence to back up some claims, and the bit on solutions lacked reality.

The TED talks I like when there are transcripts, I don't really enjoy watching the videos. The Maths one is interesting but I didn't think was that unusual to for those sort of approaches to be used in both maths and physics in schools? - or maybe I am confusing my memories of what I learned at school from what I learned from my Dad (who had a very practical approach to everything).

That is a bit of a problem as most writers are American and coming with that frame of reference in mind plus the books are starting to show their age in places as things are changing (always lol). I still find it interesting to read all the various things people write, never leave without 'something' even if it is just hmm yep, still disagree. All helps in clarifying my own ideas and ideals. I like people asking questions even when they don't have the answers, I spend a lot of time doing that myself :)

Free Schools is fairly new, if you google around he has done some radio interviews that will give you the I guess cliff notes of the book if you're interested in listening to things (I listened to one before reading the book but I can't find the exact link for it anymore but there are some others around that I imagine would be similar).

School experience is 10 years behind me now (well 10 if you count the year of primary education I took at university, 9 otherwise) but for us it was at least 90% questions in a book with one answer and one expected way to find that answer. And you lost marks for doing things in a different manner (lots of experience with that delightful concept). The only exception was maths extension which was I guess more philosophical and open ended exploration of problems and numbers and I very much enjoyed that (but this was about 30 students out of 300 so not the norm for students to experience). I do hope that has changed.

I don't want to give the impression that my mind is comparing the two options as opposing ideals, I don't really think of it like that. I don't think unschooling is hands down, no contest, always 'better' either, I think it is an option that works and that has the potential to suit anyone. My posts are more to explain why I think that and not to be read as a commentary on school in the same breathe. Some of the way in which learning is implemented in our home might be how it is in a school so when I describe what we do it isn't to say a school might not do that as well, does that make sense? I don't think a positive about unschooling directly means to suggest a negative about school or any combination of that sort of thinking, they are not polar opposites like that (well outside of the name I suppose lol). I just don't want people to read more into what I'm saying than is intended so hope that makes things more clear.

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I don't want to give the impression that my mind is comparing the two options as opposing ideals, I don't really think of it like that. I don't think unschooling is hands down, no contest, always 'better' either, I think it is an option that works and that has the potential to suit anyone. My posts are more to explain why I think that and not to be read as a commentary on school in the same breathe. Some of the way in which learning is implemented in our home might be how it is in a school so when I describe what we do it isn't to say a school might not do that as well, does that make sense? I don't think a positive about unschooling directly means to suggest a negative about school or any combination of that sort of thinking, they are not polar opposites like that (well outside of the name I suppose lol). I just don't want people to read more into what I'm saying than is intended so hope that makes things more clear.

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I don't think you give the impression of comparing opposing ideals - but I do think alot of the literature/websites etc does, and much of that does give the impression that it thinks that 'unschooling' is always better, some are very much along the lines that some kids will do ok in school but they would have done better out of school.

I do think 'unschooling' is a valid option, but I can't agree that it has the potential to suit every family. Even if you assume that all parents will have the ability to 'unschool' (which would be far from the case, as pointed out here 'unschooling' actually requires a lot of effort and not everyone would be capable of it) - so if you then look at those who would have the ability, how many have the capacity in terms of the time required. Much of the literature seems to regard 2 x working parents as putting themselves first, or putting money first, talks of concepts of secondary income, like the second parent working is just there to top things up a bit rather than an often 50/50 split. Peoples professions, age at which they have children, where they live all impact on the ability to unschool. Imagine everyone with children and then one of the parents (no idea how single parents would do it) in 70 % of those (as lets say 30% can work round it or not working or planning to work during childhood years) drops out of their job to support the 'unschooling' of their children - think how many teachers, doctors, dentists, warehouse managers, accountants, builders etc are taken out of employment.

I think if unschooling movement (or elements of it) dropped that one idea 'that it has the potential to suit anyone' and acknowledged more that it is an option that can be done in certain circumstances, I think it would be less polarizing and I think there is so much of it that could be adopted into institution based education (not using the word school - because maybe they could be different to what we know as 'school'), it also might open the idea up to more people, it 'shoots itself in the foot' a bit in my opinion.

(My comment on the maths thing, was purely about the talk itself and the bits and pieces I read around it all seemed to regard it as an unusual approach, and I didn't think it was particularly - I was educated in the UK, in what would equate to a non-selective public co-ed high school (20 years ago for me :-)), so I could be in for a rude awakening about education over here?)

I don't think the statement invalidates circumstances that prevent it, I just mean it could potentially suit. It doesn't always in reality. Maybe there is a better way to phrase it? That the learning style can suit any child but circumstance might prohibit it from being a recommendable option?

I mean it is always a choice, not saying it would always be the best option to choose but it's still a choice for anyone to make. Choosing not to unschool because of xyz shouldn't be a negative, I don't think unschooling should be pursued at the expense of everything else. I know Sandra Dodd recommends school over divorce for example and she's one of the biggest unschooling advocates out there. Just because the choice seems obvious doesn't negate the other option from existing.

Our life would be different with a second income, maybe my kids would end up better off because of it, it's kind of hard to predict though. Everyone just tries to make the best choices they can.

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I don't think the statement invalidates circumstances that prevent it, I just mean it could potentially suit. It doesn't always in reality. Maybe there is a better way to phrase it? That the learning style can suit any child but circumstance might prohibit it from being a recommendable option?

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That is certainly a better way of phrasing it, but I think we may have to agree to disagree on whether most people really have a choice. If you have the ability to think about it far enough ahead of having children that you set yourself up to be in a position to be able to do it logistically/financially - then you may have a real choice - but otherwise really the path is predetermined by what has already happened - the type of job you have, the partner you may have or not, the age you have your children (if you have your children in your early 30's and take time out to unschool - can have severe implications for being able to support yourself in old age).

Thanks for pointing out about the Free Schools book - I read some reviews online and it appears like the first part is an explanation of the Australian schooling system and its history - which will be very useful to me when it turns up at the library (IRL - I don't actually know that many people that grew up here).

I found one site with a page about unschooling if both parents work - some of the options were predictable (the whole you can just scale back your life one) but I liked this one:

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Let the kids go to school (traditional, or maybe even an alternative school), then unschool after school. There's nothing that says you can't combine regular school with unschooling. I guess this is what most people do anyway. But you could do it more explicitly, exploring unschooling ideas at home and even working with teachers to have them manifest your unschooling philosophy during school hours.

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My dad had pretty short guidelines for us growing up...

"Keep us informed, consider the consequences thoughtfully and remember that you always have a choice, even if you don't very much like your options"

And they still guide me often.

If you choose to work to provide a home and it means school instead of unschooling whilst homeless it is still a choice. An obvious one perhaps but still a choice. And possibly a number of options in between the two of course.

I think the only true way it isn't a choice is if you are unaware of the option. I'm not sure why you are opposed to it being described as a choice? Isn't it okay that you choose not to unschool for whatever the reason/s may be? You don't have to explain it to me or anyone else but for yourself perhaps explore the discomfort. Maybe it is more of an available option than you're willing to admit just yet? And really, not unschooling simply because somebody doesn't want to is just as valid as any other reason, nobody needs an 'excuse' or whatever.

When somebody really wants to do something, whatever that something is then they find the time, the money, the patience, the whatever. Maybe in the case of unschooling they use school for a while to set themselves up better to eventually get there. Sometimes barriers only seem immovable and it's more that one doesn't really want to move them and really, that's okay too :)

The Qld Govt make it pretty difficult to combine schooling and unschooling. They're pretty all or nothing.

I'm stalking this thread because I haven't made this decision yet. I love unschooling, and support it, but I also think I have what it takes to navigate my kids through the system fairly unscathed. Our local school is small and has some excellent programs, including philosophy, and the kids I know going through it have some great emotional outcomes, which I just don't think there's enough of in schools. So I'm keeping my options open.

The thing is I am not talking about me, my family. I am sure we could do it if so desired, it could be an option for us under certain scenarios, I am sure, I feel lucky that we could probably manage it. Any barriers that we have I am sure could be removed, that is not the case for everyone.

One of the definitions of choice is "The power, right, or liberty to choose" - society would not let people choose to be homeless/without any income so they could unschool. It wouldn't be allowed so people don't really have the liberty to choose that option. While the numbers are small maybe people could choose that, but as numbers grew things would change, to prevent it.

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I'm not sure why you are opposed to it being described as a choice?

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I could ask the reverse, why does the unschooling/homeschooling literature all like to insist on the fact there is a choice for everyone?

Why not just accept it works for some but for others schools will always be their only option.

I have always been very interested by the Finnish schooling model which is based around achieving equality in education for all - maybe that is why I don't like the notion that unschooling is a choice for all, it isn't an equitable system. It is probably the most expensive model financially (both for individuals in terms of lost income for a significant proportion of their life and the government due to lost taxes from those not in the workforce) - and is unlikely to provide any form of leveling between disadvantaged and other students.

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I love unschooling, and support it, but I also think I have what it takes to navigate my kids through the system fairly unscathed. Our local school is small and has some excellent programs, including philosophy, and the kids I know going through it have some great emotional outcomes, which I just don't think there's enough of in schools.

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I love that phrase - that is exactly how I feel - I think I have what it takes to bring my kids through the system unscathed, and maybe the more people who like the philosophy behind unschooling stay involved in the mainstream education the more there is a chance of changing it. I mainly think about what choices I would like my kids to have as adults, and one of them would be to have the ability to choose an education system that would allow their children if they have any to develop naturally, and to have a job/career that fulfils their desires too - and if their desires are around unschooling/homeschooling their children be able to do that also.

I don't think you have to have a child in the system to be invested or involved in it improving :) education has interested me since before I even had children. Most community based giving I am involved in doesn't impact me directly actually, I would think most people are similar in that sense. And unschooling gives me a lot of free time to do so! If it is so costly for the Government for families to choose unschooling, well money talks right and maybe more opting out will be motivate the Government to entice them back? Who really knows, probably it would just lead them to making it illegal lol. It isn't black and white, some of my reservations about choosing this lifestyle was how selfish it felt towards society. And I can't lie it makes me happy, I enjoy it immensely, I get as much out of it as my children definitely. But I tend to think people who are happy and secure are more able to invest outwardly too and that is something I try to do as much as possible.

I don't know that unschooling (or home educating) attracts a limited financial demographic? Maybe there is research about this but I definitely wouldn't imagine it being well off people mostly, maybe more upper lower and bottom middle would be my guess but I'm not acutely aware of others finances. There are obviously costs to educate at home but not as much as you'd think and it can be customized to your situation and change as that does - more when you have more, less when you have less - because you control the amount invested. Our co-op organises a lot of things for free and low cost from excursions to experiences to camps, library for free books, thrift shops and eBay and buy swap sell groups for all sorts of resources, buying art supplies with others in bulk and splitting or having a communal pool of things to rotate between families, rocks and sticks and mud are the best toys, recycled goods and tip shops, places like reverse garbage. Art gallary, the general museum and botanical gardens are all free and there are a lot of free or low cost community events (cultural and such). My Facebook event feed is always full, I could do something cheap and interesting everyday for our kids outside the home if we wanted because there are home educating groups all over our city all organizing things. There is a lot of places you can save money too by not having a commitment to school such as food - having a family lunch is much cheaper for us then having to pack lunches for some and make it for others and all of that and we have more time to grow food and to cook food which helps out. (And maybe there is some sort of long term health savings for the Government having a family with more time to invest emotionally, to invest on keeping active and cooking healthy and being less stressed? That would be an interesting study because I think we should all be working a bit less). I do think it is more affordable than it seems.

Luna - I do know personally one person who is part time schooling, her daughter and my eldest were in kindy together. It is really difficult and was definitely quite the fight to organise, I'm not sure many would choose to maintain that situation for long because it is quite stressful and unfortunately I think ends up kind of the worst of both worlds.

Have been a bit busy the last few days, we decided it was time to dedicate an entire room to artistic pursuits so been organising that. Here it is if anyone is interested to see it :)

I definitely think, for us, home educating is much cheaper than it would be to send our kids to school. But I'm not taking into account loss of second income. I have always been a SAHM and intended to be for a lot longer anyway so we never factored an income from me into any of our plans. It means it will be a while longer before we buy our own house but that's a choice we made. We preferred this lifestyle and HS was important to us so we're happy to wait for other stuff.

I am surprised there aren't more unschoolers, or homeschoolers on BB. It just seemed such a natural progression from gentle parenting to me. As we got closer and closer to school age I began to question things. I had spent all this time raising them the way I wanted just to have them sent off into a school that was based more on rewards and punishments. I don't feel learning is something to reward or punish for at all. So my first goal was just to homeschool for the first few years because I thought school started too young and I wanted them to be a bit older and more sure of who they were themselves before they went to school. I think the biggest influence in a young child's life should be their parents, and I felt it would be harder to be that while giving up so much of my time with them. Now though, seeing how well they are doing and how much fun we are having I see us doing this for a lot longer.

Not sure what you're saying, Heaven. Are you implying you love your children more that us working gentle mothers, who have to have others look after our children, often differently to how we would do ourselves? I would love to be a sahm, only feeding my family takes priority. I have to put needs (food, home, clothes...) before desires. An education is great, however you get it, and Liebs is at a good school. Just cos I would prefer otherwise doesn't mean it's bad.

Your comment that school is at odds with gentle parenting really rankles. Cos while school has so many failings, it does not punish people for not being clever (though I would agree exams feel like that) and there are many, many caring, loving and gentle teachers out there.

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Not sure what you're saying, Heaven. Are you implying you love your children more that us working gentle mothers, who have to have others look after our children, often differently to how we would do ourselves? I would love to be a sahm, only feeding my family takes priority. I have to put needs (food, home, clothes...) before desires. An education is great, however you get it, and Liebs is at a good school. Just cos I would prefer otherwise doesn't mean it's bad.

Your comment that school is at odds with gentle parenting really rankles. Cos while school has so many failings, it does not punish people for not being clever (though I would agree exams feel like that) and there are many, many caring, loving and gentle teachers out there.

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I didn't take that away from Heaven's comments at all... she wasn't bagging those gentle parents that decide to go down the mainstream path at all, more so that she thought there would be more BB'ers going down the unschooling / homeschooling path as she sees it as a natural progresssion in the gentle parenting process... and she's right, it certainly follows the philosophy of gentle parenting.

Of course not. All I was talking about was myself and how I came to my own decision. My choice doesn't imply anything about anyone else. I have said before that I believe everyone makes the best choice for their children. Sorry if it read that way but that was some of the thoughts that led to my decision so I'm not sure what to say?

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I didn't take that away from Heaven's comments at all... she wasn't bagging those gentle parents that decide to go down the mainstream path at all, more so that she thought there would be more BB'ers going down the unschooling / homeschooling path as she sees it as a natural progresssion in the gentle parenting process... and she's right, it certainly follows the philosophy of gentle parenting.

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Thanks Jaycee, that's exactly what I meant.

Questionning why more don't do this, the saying home/unschooling is the "natural progression" for a gentle parent, saying that it's to spend more time with your children at an important life stage, then saying school is a harsh, punitive environment is, to me, an indicator you find my parenting choices (other carers from age 1, normal school, see Liebs for an hour a day on school days) wanting. And not as high on the gentle parenting scale as you.

I suppose I feel it more as I do not like my choices and, in an ideal world, would be doing things differently, so it is my filters coming into play too.

Well, DS needs to eat. That's my reason. Your pondering answered.

I only said it felt like a natural progression for me, and my parenting (which is unique and not exactly the same as anyone else's), but considering I share a lot of the same views on things as others on BB I was just surprised there wasn't a bigger HS community on BB. Definitely not putting anyone down. And I do want to spend more time with them at this stage. I think everyone does! But that's not to say if you can't or you choose school you are doing the wrong thing. I also didn't say school was 'a harsh punitive environment'. I was saying that it does work on rewards and punishments though, which is true. The world often does! But coming from an 'unconditional parenting' perspective (not sure if you've read any Alfie Kohn stuff?) I decided I wanted to wait until they were a little older, a little more sure of themselves before sending them (initially, that's what I was thinking anyway).

I agree that schools start early (we have a national curriculum from birth in the UK, and the govt wish to introduce tests at age 4 to see how children are doing with this). I personally think that children should be at home with a parent, or parent-figure, until at least 7. I get where you're coming from there, completely.

Did not happen for us. But I accept the trade-off as I like food.

I do want to stick up for schools now, as I do know unconditional parenting and I use a lot of that in my teaching. But this isn't the place. Nor is it used by all teachers, so it is often just luck of the draw.

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I don't think you have to have a child in the system to be invested or involved in it improving :) education has interested me since before I even had children. Most community based giving I am involved in doesn't impact me directly actually, I would think most people are similar in that sense. And unschooling gives me a lot of free time to do so! If it is so costly for the Government for families to choose unschooling, well money talks right and maybe more opting out will be motivate the Government to entice them back? Who really knows, probably it would just lead them to making it illegal lol. It isn't black and white, some of my reservations about choosing this lifestyle was how selfish it felt towards society. And I can't lie it makes me happy, I enjoy it immensely, I get as much out of it as my children definitely. But I tend to think people who are happy and secure are more able to invest outwardly too and that is something I try to do as much as possible.

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I don't think you are that far off JF - the more people opting out the more people might take notice. I don't think it is selfish towards society at all - I think we need some people to be doing it, as experiences from it are valid for other approaches, if no one was doing it we couldn't learn from it, some children it might be a real necessity to educate this way also. I also think we do need people who are not working outside the home who can take part in many of the community based things and keep them going (ABA for one). My real only point is I think it is unrealistic to think it is a choice for everyone, to think everyone can make the choice - that bit of unreality in the literature and the fact it all says things like get rid of your second car and not eat out, have both parents work part time (like it is simply a matter of wanting to do that will make it happen - unfortunately part-time work is not that easy to come by for all, and for men in particular can be tricky) or get a nanny so you can still work (like nannies are some free or very cheap resource) - I find incredibly annoying, and actually I don't think it is helpful to anyone.

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I don't know that unschooling (or home educating) attracts a limited financial demographic? Maybe there is research about this but I definitely wouldn't imagine it being well off people mostly, maybe more upper lower and bottom middle would be my guess but I'm not acutely aware of others finances.

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I don't think it is mostly well off people either and I think your guess is about right - but in my mind that is still quite a limited financial demographic. I will see if I can find any research.

I don't see home educating as expensive apart from due to the loss of one persons income - but that income can be a significant amount - I really think the notion of a secondary or additional income needs to be got away from because it brings with it the connotations of it just being extra, there for the luxuries - the whole do away with your second car, stop eating out and you can do without it - but that notion is very pervasive in all areas not just home educating.

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I am surprised there aren't more unschoolers, or homeschoolers on BB.

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I think a few reasons, there aren't so many parents with school age children on BB. There are probably lots of forums for home educators that people use - BB is definitely more skewed to the very early years. Home educating isn't as accessible to all as Gentle Parenting (see all my previous points about it isn't a choice for all) - home educating has a far bigger impact financially than staying home with children just until they start school, a one income family for all the school years can be a massive financial commitment. I also think that their is not as much scientific evidence about detrimental effects of school as there is in the gentle parenting world around early brain development and attachment etc. therefore plenty of people believe that school isn't that bad, many of the claims about how detrimental it is, aren't really backed up by research yet, or by peoples own experiences of school.

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I agree that schools start early (we have a national curriculum from birth in the UK, and the govt wish to introduce tests at age 4 to see how children are doing with this). I personally think that children should be at home with a parent, or parent-figure, until at least 7. I get where you're coming from there, completely.

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As I was UK educated I do follow what is going on in the UK, and some of it really is quite horrifying and appears to be progressing against all the research. I follow Save Childhood on FB so stories are always popping up, along with from friends who teachers there. While I support the fight against testing at 4 and making the early years less about play and more about structured learning - the attitude of that site and Mothers at Home matter towards working mums I think is terrible and does not help their cause. I believe more in that it is the types of activity - e.g. free play that are important in the early years whether at home or in a daycare or school setting rather than who you are with. The Finnish system where school starts at 7 but free daycare is provided before then, allowing a balance of work where people want to work is more where it should be heading.

I'm a gentle parent but I think going to school is extremely important. I breastfed, co slept, babywore etc etc, but my kids love their school and are developing into amazing little humans in that environment.

I do see home educating (and unschooling) as a progression of my parenting ideals and have also wondered why there is a low representation here where many seem to have shared my path prior to school. I tend to see school as an option for outsourcing an area of parental responsibility which can be necessary in certain circumstances or desired in others but that when possible, the home as a rich and engaging nest for exploring and learning about and in the world is the default. Obviously others disagree and it would be interesting to find the point in which our thoughts diverge on the matter and why when there is so much else we agree upon.

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I do see home educating (and unschooling) as a progression of my parenting ideals and have also wondered why there is a low representation here where many seem to have shared my path prior to school. I tend to see school as an option for outsourcing an area of parental responsibility which can be necessary in certain circumstances or desired in others but that when possible, the home as a rich and engaging nest for exploring and learning about and in the world is the default. Obviously others disagree and it would be interesting to find the point in which our thoughts diverge on the matter and why when there is so much else we agree upon.

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Is interesting you choose the word outsourcing - in one way I like that because I work in IT and we outsource alot of work to India - and the way I see my relationship with the schooling system is much the same way as the outsourcing works in practice at work - the outsource company does a very predefined set of work that does not require the same high skill level, they don't guide the overall intention of the software or decide on the level of quality it should be at - the control, key elements and strategy all come from us. Just like the overall philosophy around learning and education I think still comes from the parents rather than the school - so even if a child goes to school, the overall framework of their learning (and learning is 24x7 - that is one of the things I like about unschooling is that that fact is recognised and promoted) can still be child-centered.

For school - I am outsourcing a small element of my childrens overall learning/education - I am not outsourcing it in total and I am not outsourcing parental responsibility just some hours of direct parental involvement. The home is still a rich and engaging nest for exploring and learning about the world - is just they are not in the nest all the time.

I do think it is interesting though that there are many things that are pushed by parents / or parents are interested in (attitudes to homework would be one) once their children get to school - that are at odds with the way they parented a pre-school infant - I do think there is a disconnect somewhat.

Home educating is at one end of a line of implementation of attachment parenting int the schooling years, and many people probably do not feel they have to go right to that end of the line to stay true to their ideals. Like most things those at the ends tend to assume that everyone else is at the other end - when actually most people are in somewhere between the two points, sometimes very close to the home educating end but not home educating.

Outsourcing hours of direct parental involvement is a much more accurate way to describe it, thank you. That is what I was trying to explain, clumsily, that it is an area of parental responsibility first and foremost but that one can outsource some of the practicality of to school (which I agree is not the entirety of learning). It is definitely a spectrum, that is a good reminder.

I have found a blog I really like - "Project Based Homeschooling - self-directed, learner-centered education whether you homeschool or not" - I really like the fact that the focus is all about self directed learning rather than the method (e.g. homeschooling, unschooling etc) - is quite easy to read and see how you would use the ideas combined with going to school. There isn't that much that is an entirely new concept to me, but more that it puts into words and links to research things that I have thought intuitively were the right approach for us.

Have you read Lori's book? I thought it was a good read so if you haven't, I'd recommend it. Project based learning is really compatible with unschooling, that's kind of what unschooling is; being actively present for your children to utilize while they pursue meaningful and purposeful inquiry and demonstrate the fruits of that in various ways. We don't have a dedicated time for projects because it would be fairly redundant when DD1 spends a good chunk of her time already engaged in that sort of thing but I can see how the concept would be helpful for others, especially for the parent to really letting go of distractions and honing their focus. I also love Reggio and provocations (which is essentially what stewing is about) so that is something that influences me a lot too. Unschooling really can incorporate anything which is sort of the beauty of it; to me unschooling isn't really about the method but more all the things that happen behind that (which is how I've always seen gentle/attachment parenting - it isn't about the choices but what is behind them). It is the relationship you have with your child and the relationship you and your child have with learning, it is the pursuit of inspiring a child in taking ownership of their motivation and running with it, it is a way of being really present for your children and really seeing them and their interests, it is imaging those times in your life when you are alive with curiosity and ideas and your hands can barely keep up with your brain and moving towards a place where your child can inhabit that space for as much of their time as possible. I am coming around to the idea of school being involved in some families reality of that, it is hard because I just think school really interferes and interrupts the process so much and becomes such a dominate force purely because of the time that has to be invested into it that it feels pretty incompatible but it really is the feelings behind it all and not the choices that are important so I don't know.

One thing that we do that others might be interested in doing is I set up an email and gave that to family members to email through about what they are up to, photos they have taken, interesting things they have stumbled upon and just anything they want to share with the girls which creates a huge library of spring boards for them (and also keeps them close to distant family members). We have bird watchers, my parents travel overseas twice a year, DP's parents grow the majority of their own food so there is all sorts of different perspectives and inspiration coming into our learning from these emails. And then we email back to them about where we have gone with what they've brought to us (we don't always pursue everything but even still the introduction could be valuable later) so especially for our DD1 it gives her a way of reflecting and sharing too and starting to build a collaborative relationship with others. At the moment I transcribe but it will be good typing and spelling practice as they develop that ability too.

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Have you read Lori's book? I thought it was a good read so if you haven't, I'd recommend it.

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Yes I have read the book - I agree is a very good read - I also like the forum on her website. I have found lots of the information useful in just how to extend the normal things we do, and also is interesting from an adult learning perspective.

School certainly does dominate in terms of time there is no denying that - but I think doesn't have to be the dominant force if you don't let it, and depending on the school and its philosophies lots of the PBH approaches can be used by an individual during school time, and I think approaches like that can certainly guide the way parents interact with school. I also think that many of the ways schools approach things are driven by parents/politics rather than the beliefs of educators so perhaps overtime schools will change from the path they are on.

One of the things I like most about PBH approach and lots of unschooling resources is the focus on building on your passions/interests and also there seems to be far more of a focus on jobs/careers later on - I found any sort of thinking about life post uni really quite lacking in my schooling and seeing the proportion of your life you spend working I think some sort of focus on that would be good.

I like the "I'm Unschooled. Yes, I Can Write." and the interviews with grown-up unschoolers are particularly interesting.

I think alot of the stuff about technology use (screen time) is also good - e.g. some of Lori's articles - because it isn't about either or, it is about what you are getting from it and some balance. From my perspective also seeing as I work with computers all day in some fashion or other then it seems particularly wrong to demonize them. Although if you work with computers and have always had a close link with technology (I started programming a Vic20 by typing in the code from magazines at age 7, and continued to use computers heavily throughout my childhood) it is probably easier to see the value/positives from them.

Yeah, she has some great technology based posts and also the scarcity vs abundance one I think its called. My partner and I are both long time gamers, we actually met gaming so we are pretty comfortable about technology :) We don't limit technology and haven't found any problems in that approach. It's there when the kids want it but we make sure that plenty of other things are too basically. When DD1 discovered pokemon, she watched for almost a whole day non-stop and it made me a little uncomfortable but it would feel a little hypocritical to stop her considering when a new game is in beta or newly released, DP and I can find our free time suddenly consumed by it. And then it settles back to its usual rhythm and we can go days without playing a game at all, just like DD1s watching pokemon has balanced out and she rarely watches anymore. Sometimes it feels like society expects kids to be way more disciplined about how they spend their time than adults. Balance to us isn't a daily quota of x and y and z but something we keep an eye on over larger periods of time.

Instead of limiting we have taken steps to encourage our children to make mindful decisions about how they spend their time. We don't have free to air or paid TV, our TV runs off a hard drive so a person has to actively choose what they want to watch, it doesn't mindlessly stream. Our TV and computers (we have two powerfully beautiful computers, both with double screens) are located in a room away from the main areas of the house (where we naturally spend most of our time) so you have to actively seek it out. We have set up play spaces for our kids that are inviting and engaging, inside and outside, which are conducive to pursuing and demonstrating inquiry. And we spend our time engaged in various activities ourselves so we model that for our children.

It can seem like a lot more work than just demanding a child sticks to an hour a day or whatever but I actually think it is a lot easier in the end because we don't have to deal with any power struggles or whinging or any of that. And it is a long term investment, I don't want my child to learn how to follow others demands and commands, I want them to learn how to make active informed choices for themself and what better time to get all the practise they can while the stakes aren't high, while we're around to help them through any consequences. Children should be allowed to make wrong choices, to experience and feel them, to learn through that. Obviously serious safety concerns aside, of course we don't allow violence, we have car seats and belts and all that sort of thing which are not negotiable. And not that using technology would be a wrong choice but you know. Tangent.

And yep, technology has so many beneficial applications. My DD1s reading ability is owed a lot to wanting to navigate independently around bulbapedia and her maths has been hugely strengthened by playing hearthstone amongst other things :)

Thought some might be interested in this attempt to study unschooling. Maybe it will be a catalyst for more....

"Therefore, this study, by itself, cannot be a basis for strong claims about the experiences and feelings of the whole population of unschoolers. What the study does unambiguously show, however, is that it is possible to take the unschooling route and then go on to a highly satisfying adult life"

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/fr...rview-findings

For us, we aren't making choices aiming for adulthood. We are living our life right now, our children are living their life right now - so the question for us is what sort of life do we want for our children and family in this moment. If a problem arises in adulthood, we can address it in adulthood. Really, sending a child to school is no guarantee, unschooling is no guarantee, there are no guarantees that a child will even have a future (not to get too morbid). You don't compute in a series of choices and it spits out a certain adult. So I'd be more interested in how they felt about their childhood, whether they felt supported and able to overcome any challenges that presented themselves because of having not attended school, their connection and relationship with their parents and siblings... but it is still interesting to read any sort of study and I'll be interested in reading further.

I had read the study as I subscribe to the "Free to Learn Blog". Thought was interesting.

The question that interests me most is "If you choose to have a family/children, do you think you will choose to unschool them? Why or why not?" - there isn't really enough data to answer that yet as not enough have had children yet and is also quite a small sample size - but given the challenges in financially supporting a family and unschooling - I wonder whether if you have been unschooled yourself and loved that path, whether it can be problematic in adult life if not able to financially support unschooling your own children.

"three others, who despite their positive feelings about their own unschooling would, for various reasons, not unschool their own child" - I would be interested to know whether these reasons were financial at all.

I'd be interested to read more about that also - and for those who are unschooling or planning to, whether the familiarity of unschooling vs the uncertainty of the mechanics involved in navigating schooling factored into that decision. And for all of the respondents, if they felt any pressure or obligation to parent in a certain way or even just about their world view in general from the way they were parented - how confident they would feel in pursuing a different path I suppose, do they feel supported in that. That is something I think about (not that that is an exclusive to unschooling thing, I know I felt guilt turning away from some of my parents ideals knowing how hard they worked and how much they invested into my education) because I mean, part of this is about giving them space to be who they are but part of it is also a reflection of our ideals so how those two could potentially interact would be something I am interested in being aware of.

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/fr...-going-college

The second part in the series. Interesting enough but I am more interested in job outcomes than college/uni - I understand why they are focusing on that as it is a question that always comes up about unschooling - but I hope they also look at life and jobs beyond higher education.

I was more interested in careers also and it is now up! Here: Survey of Grown Unschoolers III: Pursuing Careers | Psychology Today

It is interesting. I wonder about the childhood interests part sometimes because our 2yr old has a very definite, clear passion for anatomy and has done for the last 6months+. Mostly human but just yesterday she was asking me "inside monkey too?" as she pointed to various organs so possibly it is expanding. It began with a preference for those sort of books and even now when offered to choose a book at the store or library will more often than not pick one related to anatomy, we have quite the growing collection! But it has grown into everything she does lately - if she is relating something she has seen or heard, it is oh that sounds like a heart, that looks like a brain. She has tea parties with her anatomy model and takes it to bed. She understands so many things about bodies and how they work - the names of organs and some bones, digestion (when she feeds her anatomy model who she calls Mr Sketolen, she has the food traveling through the various parts) and circulation (we have a circulation track with blood trains that transport various passengers around the body) - but the more telling part is she continues to seem infinitely curious to know more, always asking questions like the monkey one above or we were looking at a picture of a uterus with a developing fetus and the first thing she said was "where that go", trying to make sense of where it fit inside a body and then how the baby got out.

Some photos of her anatomy adventures:
Falling asleep with Mr Sketolen (breastfeeding photo)
Hanging out with Mr Sketolen
Hanging out with other Mr Sketolen
Matching things to her book
Circulation

It doesn't really matter to me what the specific interest is but more that she has honed in on something at 2, I'm curious to see it play out. Although using an anatomy model essentially as her doll is really adorable alongside her cute pronunciation of 'sketolen' lol.

Thanks for pointing the last part is out, is interesting to read about the careers. I am currently reading Peter Gray's book Freedom to learn - and there is a section in there about careers of those who have graduated the Sudbury Valley School - which is also very interesting - perhaps for me more interesting as the 'school' model is of particular interest to me (as discussed previously is a model that could potentially be open to a greater cross section of society).

How interesting about your DD - my best friend all through primary school - decided from age about 6 she was going to be vet and became a vet (despite a few life events along the way that may have ended that) - I have always thought it must be wonderful to have that sort of focus.

Jellyfish, love Mr Sketolens adventures with Ms 2!

She is such fun to watch. They do everything together lol.

With our other DD (who is 5) there are definite glimpses and leanings also. My mum commissioned her for a cityscape artwork piece and after she had completed it she mentioned she would like to have her own art store inside her house when she is older. She is very dedicated to her work, I suppose you could say - patient and a problem solver - her cityscape came together over a number of days, there was planning and waiting for paint to dry between layers and that sort of time and effort is something she regularly invests. She's definitely artistic, in that she sees a lot of potential in the things around her like she found a stick and was instantly rounding up supplies to make a puppet with it yesterday and that's a regular occurrence, an hour after that she was inspired to make a wand from something else. She spends most of her time creating things.

Her cityscape picture. (It is a work building, a hotel, a cake shop and a plant shop - well rounded city I think :))

I do really love getting to spend so much time watching them and getting to know them. And I love them having the space and time to do the things they love and get to know themselves. Sometimes I feel like people are concentrating so hard on the 'otherside' that they forget that life is happening right now, children are people right now, things can be incredible right now. It is interesting to read the accounts of those grown but really, nothing compares to the assurance I feel from just being with my children and seeing them.