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I'm not sure what you mean Liz. We have had example after example of PA behaviour - not normal behaviour.
If someone is being an arse under the the pretence of something else it's usually very clear. If you have a conversation with someone and walk away feeling sick and you aren't sure why it could be that they are using PA behaviours on you.
How is that a sad way to be?
Liz & Jen I felt very much like I was once so aware of PA that I became hyper reactive to it... I had a PA radar that would go off all the time.
So, I agree Liz that it's not helpful nor is it respectful to assume anothers motives.
What I've learned is to listen to my gut. My gut feels uncomfortable about an interaction. I go into myself & honestly take to my table what I did/said... What happened in the interaction. Sometimes of course I have not behaved well & I go about healing that. Sometimes it's because someone else was treating me in a passive aggressive fashion & thus the discomfort.
So, I think that absolutely we can become so alert to PA that it is assumed all the time. Thankfully I've grown through that & for me I just don't have those people in my life any more... Hopefully I won't attract it. But if I do clearly I need some more work in that department! :redface: Because that's what I reckon happens. You only attract into your life what you need. YK?
So, long answer - absolutely it's not helpful to spend so much time outside yourself guessing anothers motives.
Thus; saying "what did you mean by that comment"? "or, I got the feeling you wre having a dig at me"? "am I wrong"? etc. Approach it head on is my suggestion.
Don't assume it makes an ass out of me and u! Ask, challenge kindly, then let go...
When someone has a PA in their life it's to help with their own growth I think - certainly that has been my case.
TTM - my ex husband did and still does exactly what you say. He won't give info, won't tell them what's for dinner, or what they're doing on the weekend. It's a game of power.
That power needs to be kindly disarmed. Show him another way. They ask what's for dinner: "what would you guys like for dinner"? What are we doing on the weekend" what do you think would be fun"?
I've decided rightly or wrongly! That this models a different way for my kids. So they can see they have some power in decisions & a right to make choice. A PA doesn't like people to have choice unless the choice is theirs. They just like to appear on the surface easy going... They are not really they are puppetteers and now is the time to decide if you want to continue being a puppet.
I think the answer is in how you respond. Responding with like behaviour is being PA in reverse (IMO) but responding with a challenging question is doing what they fear most. Asking for their honesty... If you can do tht authentically & naturally I *think* it is a helpful way to respond... :hug:
This I agree with. But it's also being said that it's not always clear.. which then lumps generally thoughtless or annoying behaviour in with PA behaviour, with the assumption that there's malicious intent behind it. This is what I'm talking about, and why I'm saying it would be a sad way to be because anything that upset you, you would think it was maliciously done to upset you.. when it could quite simply be thoughtless! if that's the case.. I live with a VERY malicious man, who has been out to get me for the last 7 years! LOL. and probably me him too!:
If someone is being an arse under the the pretence of something else it's usually very clear.
And really, they might only be being an arse in your eyes. The world doesn't revolve around making everything pleasant for you. OK.. collective you. LOL. Not directing this at anyone!
I'm not saying this behaviour doesn't exist.. but to say that laziness, running late etc is PA is stretching it IMO. If its accompanied with snide/smart remarks then sure.. it's being done in spite. But geez.. people run late! Habitually!
I dunno... we have so many threads telling people that no-one can make them feel a certain way, that we own our own feelings and reactions, and here we have a thread dedicated to the evils of how people are making us feel! LOL. I just think it's been stretched a bit far.. that no-one's owning that they could be oversensitive or assuming evil intent where there may be none.
Look how many times it's been said that people shouldn't assume intent on the part of someone advocating breastfeeding, yet people DO still feel like they're being given guilt trips. Does this mean there is PA behaviour on this persons part? If we go by this thread.. yes. Just because people have walked away feeling guilty/sick from a certain comment, then the behaviour MUST have been PA.
This thread just confuses me to be honest. I certainly believe there is PA behaviour and that it's nasty.. very nasty. But I think there is some oversensitivity involved as well. I guess I just don't like to assume evil on people. *shrug*
Oh Inanna - you replied whilst I spent forever writing LOL. Will be back later.. otherwise I'll be late where I'm going tonight! evil woman that I am being late! PMSL ;)
Liz I gotta share the love but :clap:
ETA - FWIW when it comes to dealing with PA I tend to treat people (everyone) at face value, as if they are all being open & honest with me.
It is exhausting trying to analyse everyone's motivations. (Mind you I used to think everything was about me, too - if someone was snappy it was my fault, not perhaps that they were just having a bad day....)
And if for some reason it seems clear to me that someone is not being open & honest, then I do what Inanna said - meet it head on. Maybe don't even ask, just jump in - 'Well it seems like you might feel such-and-such, and if that's so then I am sorry but...' - ITMS?
It works twofold - one, if I am right about how they feel, then I have addressed it. And if I am wrong, then sometimes you will find them correcting your misinterpretation...
TMTM, my sister made me late for some of my exams- OK, I arrived as everyone was going in, but only because Mum eventually said she'd leave without Sis as I was about to have a minor breakdown! She was ready, just sitting in her room because she could. Teenage sister was evil. Sis didn't even drive, was just too used to getting her own way.:
And mum's favourite meal was "ifit" when we were little. We'd ask what she was cooking (not like my DH, who asks what's for dinner as I serve up lunch) and she'd say "ifit": if it goes around, you'll get a bit. ONE: why not just tell us? TWO: why make my sister fear that there wouldn't be enough food for her? THREE: just go away, woman. I really lost respect for my mum when she did the "ifit" thing. I was in junior school! But both sis and I hated "ifit" and Sis keeps telling mum that!
Was it PA? Or just sis being a teenage evil child (as she acknowledges she was) and Mum reaching the end of her tether? I'm past caring really. It was annoying at the time but ultimately hasn't changed my life. Not like Mum changed the meal mid-way to spite me.
If something is a real power play (my mother's youngest brother springs to mind a lot from this thread) and it's done subversively, it just makes me wonder what is so wrong with that person. And I pity them now. I will not spend more time than I need to with them. I am happy to cut contact with mum's little brother too, for many reasons. But she adores him, so I can't get rid of him without getting rid of mum. Which is a whole nother story! But I digress: they don't "make" me feel worthless: I'm not. They make me pity them, for they are worthless and they know it, which is why they try to steal my worth. And mine just ain't up for grabs.
Well, you know, when you've lived with someone for a long time and you've talked things through and you've had to work hard at living with them, you *can* sometimes assume intent.:
And actually, what you are saying is a bit upsetting, although I'm sure you don't mean to be. Because the tactic of the person who is being PA is to gaslight you - when you bring up the difficulties they are presenting and try to communicate better, because they haven't outright attacked you, they make it out to be your fault. You: "I feel like such and such when you..." Them: "But I never *said* that." Or they get upset and throw a tantrum, thereby blocking your attempts to communicate better. And so when you've spent a lifetime learning to deal with PA people who have been able to make your life miserable for a very long time, having someone come along and say, "Oh, but you can't assume intent!"
Well, yeah, sometimes you can.
My husband runs late. It is not passive aggressive. He is disorganised.:
Someone else in my life keeps us waiting. This person is not disorganised, and does not keep important people waiting. This person is also manipulative and likes the upper hand in a lot of other ways. Now *you're* assuming you know the people in our lives better than we do.
Now I'm going to leave this thread because I'm getting irrationally annoyed. That is not passive aggressive - that's setting boundaries :)
I'm just objecting to such general things being lumped into a list of PA behaviour. Yes it can be PA.. and it's usually something else that makes you realise it is.. such as the conversations had about it.
I'm not assuming I know anything about specific situations.. just don't like the generalisations. We can come in here and read this thread and come away thinking pretty much anything can be called passive aggressive. I've questioned that.. and people have clarified some of their situations by explaining the conversations that have taken place along with it.. which then yes makes it bloomin obvious that it was PA.
But to just say not picking up laundry, being late or whatever is PA in itself I don't agree with :)
LOL - I dunno! Just leaving the thread would be setting boundaries. Saying it as a "last word" could be PA :-P But now I'm deliberately assuming intent ;):
Now I'm going to leave this thread because I'm getting irrationally annoyed. That is not passive aggressive - that's setting boundaries
Liz, I think you are getting caught up through your own filters - your DH has his own "thang" with the laundary which IS separate from PA, and is why I started another thread dedicated to it.
Each and every time you have questioned you have been given clarification and I still can't see who is generalising or lumping all behaviour in as PA?
Just when it's said that PA isn't obvious.. and things like that have been listed among PA behaviour. I'm too lazy to go back and find the posts :D Of course I'm going to look at my life examples, because mine & DH's behaviour was listed and I would hate to think people are assuming that we're being nasty or controlling with that behaviour. Tis all :) And it led me then to further think about how general thoughtless or disorganised behaviour could be taken as PA and how I didn't think that would be fair.
I'm sorry if I'm starting to sound argumentative. I feel like I'm trying to explain myself so much that I'm starting to sound like I don't agree with anything LOL. When I do totally agree with the horridness of PA behaviour.
Anyway, I think I've said what I wanted to say.. if it doesn't make sense then I shall remain misunderstood.. I don't mind LOL.
My DH often accuses me of looking for things that aren't there, but you know what I believe that is part of his PA behaviour. I do not deliberately look for things, it is just that my radar goes off and I question him. This past weekend for example, I gave him warnings about all his behaviours that cause stress when packing. I thought I would get ahead of the behaviour, set clear boundaries. Well it did not stop him and did not stop the complaints when we were camping of all the things I did not get done (which I did not get done due to his constant interruptions). I could go on for ages about a lot of his behaviour this weekend.
Liz - I get what you are saying, but I think what we have here is major difference of experiences. Whislt there is a part of me that you love you to experience some of the PA behaviour that we have just so you get where we are coming from, another part of me does not, as it really is not nice and it is much nicer to go through life not knowing the pain it causes.