Do you think having children and how many should be based on how much money you earn?

this is a really tough call to make - i can see where your sister is coming from in terms of getting yourself set up, but it's not the be all and end all of life! we were lucky in that i moved out of my parents house when i was single - and comparing the cost of a mortgage and the cost of renting - it turned out to be a whole $7 per week difference - paying it off got me some equity in the house, which meant we ended up gettins a nice amount of money back when we sold the house! i bought my house and had been paying it off a couple of years when DH and i got together. his brother passed away and DH inherited the family home (and the mortgage on it!) - so we sold my house, got rid of the mish mash of cars we had, and got one good car - which we chose on the basis we wanted a car big enough for a family. the amount we pay on our mortgage now is a lot less than a cheap rental in the city areas... we both had furniture that we'd been given by family, so we kept what we wanted, sold the rest of it cheaply to a few people we knew were struggling financially, and replaced the furniture with a lot of matching pieces. we're making the most of our double income to get our house establisehed while we go through assisted conception, knowing that once we have a child, my income will be halved for 6 months, and then gone for the remainder of my mat leave. i will be returning to work after 12 months, but only for two days per week - this is primarily because i know that i have a great job at the moment, it's really flexible with hours and things - and when my family are all at school, i will have something to return to during school ours - but i'll admit that i know i'm lucky in that factor - not everyone can work around their children like that!

i believe that money cannot be the deciding factor in choosing to have a family - it will have an impact, but everyone learns to live within their own means - and your financial situation now when your choosing to have your family won't necessarily reflect what it is going to be 10 or 15 years down the track when you have teenagers eating you out of house and home!

I'd just like to add that although it's very important to take finances into consideration when planning a family none of us knows what is ahead of us, so regardless of our good intentions, life often does not go to plan. Just because your financial situation is good now, does not mean it will be in the future. Because of this I think smaller families in this ever increasing expensive world that we now live in is the way to go. We also live in an overpopulated world and we are running out of resources, we don't have enough water (well we don't in Victoria) so we should also keep that in mind too.

Fifteen years ago I got married to someone I expected to be with forever. We both had great career prospectives and were both earning well above the average wage. We planned to buy a house and have two kids and I would get to stay home with them.

Seven years ago, I was still married, no kids had arrived but we had the house. Our mortgage payment was similar to paying rent.

Five years ago I was still married to the same man but due to a work accident he could no longer work. His body repaired but his mind did not. I was the only bread winner in the house - he was in no mental state to look after children so it was very lucky that we hadn't managed to have any.

Three years ago I was a single woman easily able to cope with life on my own because I had kept working through all the years and had worked my way up to a good salary. Had I had children I would have been struggling financially as I would not have kept my career, nor would I be recieving a cent from my ex. I had no mortgage and had money in the bank from selling our house.

Now I'm engaged with a step daughter & hoping for a child of our own and although I'm on better money than ever I know that it could change in the blink of an eye. I have a mortgage again but because of the rise in property prices in the years I was out of the property market my new home cost double what my first home cost (and it's smaller and on a block half the size of my first one) therefore our mortgage is twice what my original one was so both our wages are required to pay it.

I am 41 and because of that have to plan for retirment and part of that is to own our own home. If another child does come into our lives then we just may have to change those plans.

The thing I've learnt most from life is that you really never do know what lies around the corner. Who knows what my situation will be in another 5 years...... certainly not me.

IMO

I think money should play a part in the decision of how many children to have.

No point having 3 kids if you can afford to give them the best (and by best i mean private schooling, a nice house to come home to (either rented or our own, thats not the point), music/sport/art lessons, trips and activities, equipment for school and uni like laptops, family holidays etc. A lot of you will 'kill' me for this, but i want my kids to be able to keep up with their friends, even on the superficial stuff like clothes and being able to go to the shops or movies with their friends!)

Yes its more about love than money, but i want my kids to have the best of both worlds.

Having grown up with no $$, not being able to do stuff like go on camps or school activities, wearing opp shop clothes to highschool, living in houses that were only just livable and not having a computer to do VCE work on when the stupid teachers made a rule about no hand written Cats... anyway, i might have a biased view of all this.

I agree that your financial situation should be considered before deciding on more children. My 9yo DD is costing us a fortune at the moment - and not really on clothing! It's all of the other stuff she does!

DH wants another bub, but I know that will mean buying a new car for a start, and we would have to seriously look at our storage situation at home, and either buy a new shed, or put shelves up somewhere, otherwise we wouldn't have room for another!

I agree that mortgages cost a LOT of money compared to renting, although I don't miss having to ask for permission whenever I wanted to hang something on a wall, or when we wanted to buy DD a puppy, or when we wanted cable internet connected, etc etc. Also I have the security of knowing that if and when we move in the future, it will be OUR choice and not our landlord's! So there are definitely intangible benefits of having your own home. I also invest in the stockmarket, so does that mean I get the best of both worlds? I think so, seeing as my stockmarket investing is allowing me to stay home with bub and paying me more than my job used to (that's what equity can do for you). Yay!

Emz I sympathise and relate completely and of course how we grow up shapes how we become and the priorities that we have.

Its difficult balancing what our children want and need...I can remember never having the 'right' shoes, clothes etc so I probably spent more time hankering for them than on things that would actually help to build my character and esteem. Consequently Im always a bit funny about making sure the kids have 'things'. Its a balancing act that I feel i have to juggle with talks, programs, and guests where their lives are very different from ours and not so priviledged. I dont want the kids to take anything for granted. I believe our job is to nurture the spirit of our children and provoke their conscience, not just provide the material goods in our very consumer driven world. Its a bit off topic, sorry Amy for hijacking!

Jo

My mum used to say all the time "if u wait until u can afford to have kids, u will never have them". I feel like we definately cant afford to have kids but number 2 is on its way now. Also it never seems to matter how much my husband and I make we always seem to spend it all and thats it. In the past 8 months we have gone up in pay $20,000 a year and we cant seem to find where that has gone (that is soooooo bad isnt it but it really is how much our combined incomes have gone up). Daycare has gone up too mind u to full time and a % has gone down put still $20,000. Its insane. Sorry that was my vent for the day. Please continue.

I think its all about sacrifces......as you have more children the new pair of black stilletos or the sat night dinner @ $150 becomes unthinkable....i think if you found those things hard to 'give up' then maybe having lots of kids isnt an option.....

My DH works two jobs, i spend a lot of time on my own with the girls....but we live comfortably. We could just live on the one wage but DH and i want to be able to take the girls on hols, or have foxtel in our home....so we've both made the sacrifices.....
I agree with astrolady....babies, toddlers dont cost much day to day. But teenagers - another story. Even schooling can be xpensive, my sis is always saying her DD needs $5 here or $10 there for some school activity....

My mum and dad were by no means 'loaded' but decided to have 4 children. Mum said there were times she could barely afford a loaf of bread for our school lunches.....but they got by........paying off the mortgage and having a brand new car wasnt what it was all about....taking us girls on holidays to QLD, or being able to buy us a nice xmas gift was more important to them.
You do get those times back again, mum and dad recently went o/s again, and both have new cars......Its about what your willing to sacrafice......and for how long.

Precisely mbear... DH and I are really really good at delaying gratification ;) We don't subscribe to the "gotta have it NOW" mentality that is so prevalent these days. We just accept that after our last child has left home (and hopefully gone onto the university of their choice) then it will be our time to enjoy our money. And if all we can afford is a little shack outback then we'll be happy because we both enjoy the simple pleasures of life anyhow.

I had a mixed upbringing BTW. My childhood was very comfortable materially... best house in the street, pools, junior golf lessons, weekends spent sailing on my dad's boat... but my parents ended up arguing over money and split. After that things were very different... we were moved all over the countryside and struggled to get anything much at all. However this was very character building like Jo said. I learnt to appreciate money for the first time in my life... I taught myself the basics of sewing... learnt how to cook... made my own entertainment etc As they say "necessity is the mother of invention" and I honestly think that giving everything to your kids on a platter is doing them a diservice. But also like Jo said, it's a balancing act, I also believe in buying the basics (eg at least one "in" outfit etc) so that they feel like they fit in with their peers. However as long as you help your child develop a strong self esteem buying the 'right stuff' isn't as important. For example: I do a lot of Op Shopping. My DD's wardrobe has more Op Shop bought clothes than not... one day one of her friends commented on one of her handbags when I was taking them to the movies. I told the friend that we bought it from an Op Shop for $3... at first my DD was mortified... she gave me the most horrified stare! LOL but then the friend said "Wow! which one???" (Savers) and now word has got around about Op Shopping at my DD's private school and many of her friends are now doing it! (much to the relief of their parents who are mostly making huge sacrifices to pay the fees as well). Anyhow, my DD learnt a valuble lesson: Don't be too proud to be yourself, your real friends will always accept you for who you are. I'm not sure she would have as healthy self esteem if I subscribed to the "pay-what ever-you-have-to-pay-to-buy-the-right-clothes-so-that-you-can-fit-in" mentality.

Regarding renting: you have to pick the right kinda house: preferably an older style so that the owner isn't likely to notice/care if you want to put a picture hook in the wall etc. We have had a pet, put in several new phone lines, put up shelves, replaced curtains, put in vegie patches etc all without asking and our landlord loves us. They have made it clear they want us to stay for a looong time... BUT like satya said, who knows what's around the corner... they might have to sell for reasons beyond their control... DH and I are mentally prepared for that... we could take it in our stride... infact we would turn a negative into a positve and probably move somewhere interesting as my DH has work opportunities galore both interstate and over seas. We prefer the flexibility of just up and leaving to be honest... but I agree it's not for everyone.

I'm with Bath and Jo, all the way.

I would never let money stop me from having a much wanted child. Things are going to be harder for us when this little one arrives and we go down to one income - but for us me being at home with my children is far more important than material things - cars, holidays, clothes etc.

I am a firm believer in the philosophy that we just make do with what we've got, somehow it all just works out. If we couldn't afford our mortgage tomorrow and lost our house then yes, I would be upset and disappointed but I know there are far more important things in life.

Before i had DD DP had a pretty good job and i had a good one. We'd planned for me to care for the baby for the first year and then look at how we could juggle childcare so we could both work.

DP lost his job when DD was 1 week old (redundancy). We split up when she was 8 weeks old. I am now a single SAHM living entirely on state benefits. I don't smoke, i don't drink, i don't buy new clothes (only 2nd hand for me, DD gets some new stuff if i can't get it elsewhere). We eat really well because i believe that's important. I cannot afford to save because i have EXACTLY what i need to live on and no more. My house is rented, the council pay my rent.

I have nothing just now. THe most valuable thing in my flat is this laptop which might be worth 100GBP, though possibly not since the coffee incident ;)

I look around myself at others with masses of cash and houses and things and yes, sometimes it feels like i'm lost on the ocean. But i am so aware that when i die everything which i have amassed in this life except from my children and their love will be worth nothing. Yeah, inheritance can be a wonderful gift if you're able to give it, but so long as my funeral is paid for and my debts are settled, i'd rather leave Esme the inheritance of having the knowledge and confidence to make her own way in the world.

So while i would not go out and get pregnant again while my situation looks like this, if i fell pregnant (i have an IUS fitted) anyway, i'd welcome the baby.

I don't think you ever HAVE enough money, because money isn't for having. It's for using, and however much you have you will use. You can live how i do and i would call it living, not just surviving. Things are very tight, but i love a challenge and am sensible-head when it comes to finances.

It kind of bothers me to think "kids are expensive". It makes them sound like a commodit.! You'd never hear people say "oh i don't want to get married because husbands are so expensive!". The idea of a child is about cost, the reality of a child is about love and joy and the privilege of knowing such an amazing person right from their very beginnings.

Bec

I must say I gotta sit on the fence here - I am with Bath all the way with her wise words on stuff and whether we actually need it all, but I can see where Emz is coming from too.

Personally I think if your financial situation is causing you personal distress (ie: you are fighting with DH cause you have no money, he is at the pub cause he has no job, your landlord is $hit and you live in an unsafe/unsantiary situation, you have no money for car insurance and then you have an accident and are financially cleaned up, etc) then maybe you need to think twice about bringing a kid/kids into that kind of situation. Equally, if you live the high life and are used to having EVERYTHING and have the attitude that "having a child will mean you will have to SACRIFICE and OMG it will be SOOO HARD how will you COPE" then maybe you should also rethink having kids.

So I think that, generally speaking, rather than how much money you have being the determining factor, your personal and emotional wellbeing and ability to raise children in a safe, secure and loving home should be the decider.

That said, to open a can of worms : is right that someone who "A Current Affair" labels a "supermum" with 15 kids (ie: has that many kids that she and hubby could have no hope of feeding and clothing on their own, let alone paying for private school fees!) have their personal desire to have lots of children supported by tax payers and lauded as some kind of hero? Now I am a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of welfare because I believe every person has a basic human right to food, shelter and security, and in no way do I believe that children should suffer for their parent's decisions, but what do people think about that kind of situation? It is extreme I know, but just as some people chose to have one child so they can afford to give their kid the best of everything (this was my parent's approach) there is the other extreme out there.....

Hoobly - LOVE what you said about not liking people commenting on kids being expensive when no one comments that a partner is expensive. Let's face it - a wife is expensive and so is a husband - but we get married anyone. Along that line of thinking, not many people bat an eye or think twice about the THOUSANDS of dollars couples spend on the wedding with NO guarentee that the marriage is going to survive. I also liked the comment about money being for using not having and however much you have is how much you will use. It is SO true that most couples/families will unknowing/unconsciously up their spending to match a raise.
I also loved the comments Bathsheba made and agree completely. I am a big believer in understanding and knowing what is a NEED and what is a WANT. DH and I will definitely have three children and more than likely continue to have a fourth. I will start teaching our children very early to understand the difference between a need and a want. DH and I will always do what we have to in order to provide what our children NEED - beyond that we will see that they get a few of their WANTS given to them as well as gifts. After that, it is up to them to get the rest of their WANTS. I purchased my own Cabbage Patch Doll when I was about 8 or 9 years old and also paid for half of my 10 speed bicycle when I wanted it. I simply saved my pocket money.
DH and I have very close friends who have 7 children and successfully live on one income. They own their home (a 3 bedroom home) and the kids have everything they need and also a lot of their wants. So I don't think that money should be the end all be all of having children. You do need to be aware of your situation and know how you would handle different situations that may arise, but I don't think finances should be the only deciding factor for having children or determining how many to have.

I can assure you Roryrory than welfare is little enough money than anyone who CAN raise 15 kids on it IS a hero. It's hard enough with 1.

Bec

In that instance Roryrory, I definately do not see her as any sort of hero. Anyone that would voluntarily have 15 children (and lets face it, I am sure she figured out after the first couple about the birds and the bees) knowing that they would have to rely on welfare is just plan stupid! This is definately not an attack on people that rely on welfare, I just think that if you can't afford to support that many children you should stop having them.

Bec, yes the amount of welfare single mothers receive is rediculous, but you have choosen to take control of the amount of children you choose to raise in your current financial situation, personally I feel that makes 'you' the hero not this numbnut woman.

I would love to have 4 children, luckily I am in the type of career where I can go back to work one day a week (sat or sun) and earn really good money if it came to it. But I know if I want to be a fulltime SAHM, I will probably have to stop after this one is born. I also agree the first child has the biggest impact on your finances.

For me, money is a consideration, but not the be all and end all. It is something you have to think about as financial stress will affect the children you already have. If mum and dad are worried about money then it might become a stressed home instead of a happy one. You also have to think about your own priorites - if an extra child might prevent you being a SAHM or mean you have to work full time instead of part time, or maybe it is the difference bw private and public school for the existing kids, then you have to decide what is the best for the family as a whole. For some the love of another beautiful child means everything else is worth it, for others that's not the case. It's an individual thing, but I think the consideration should still be there so you can make the right decision for your circumstances.

I think you definitely need to take finances into consideration, love is the biggest part of raising a family, but I also want all of my child to have the best opportunities in life and unfortunately that costs money.

On the other hand, I think you need to consider your family before making financial decisions. For example, DH and I would absolutely LOVE to move back to Mornington, but all of the houses that we like would require us to double our mortgage..at least...we are not prepared to do this as we plan on having other children and don't want to be stressed about money when I won't be working.

How are you going with this Amy? Any further thoughts or words with your SIL?
Let us know :)