Well, of course it's tongue in cheek, cos I'm right :P Work in progress; yep, that's my headspace!:
Somebody might raise a point that might make me change the way I view something (not likely, since I'm always right )
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Well, of course it's tongue in cheek, cos I'm right :P Work in progress; yep, that's my headspace!:
Somebody might raise a point that might make me change the way I view something (not likely, since I'm always right )
Olive's Mummy, of course we are not making a blanket reference of ALL Mums/parents. We are looking at the situations where it is used the most - and that's where often its just the wrong thing to say and isn't helpful to anyone. You're right, some mums who go to FF don't have any issues with it, but it's actually been said earlier in this thread (you might have missed it) that they are the Mum's who DON'T need to hear the statement. It's the ones who have the huge internal struggle with it who it gets said too and who really don't need to hear it, because then it's like they have to trick themselves into thinking it must be true, so I must be happy - all the while wearing their rose coloured glasses.
So maybe it is their ticket, or their validation of what they are doing is right, and often it might be right, but it's all a little fake, when you have someone telling herself that she *must* be happy because her baby is. We're all sort of saying that no, it's not alright and we're allowed to feel unhappy even if what we do makes our baby happy. The fulfilment bit came later as the thread evolved. I personally think fulfilment is a separate issue, but I'm happy to discuss it here too. I'm the sort of person who lets most of life roll off my back like the proverbial duck. I had a pretty ordinary childhood and I've grown up with very little expectations of life, so anything positive that happens is a bonus, so therefore I am a happy and fulfilled person because I take pleasure in the little things, I don't need to go searching for it because I already have it.
Ok Trillian that makes a bit more sense in regards to the original thread, it just got a bit out of hand back there and I should have checked the updated posts before I posted. I think your right, there are lots of underlying separate issues here so sorry for going back to the negative bits I just wanted to say my bit about the nasty comments but realise the thread has gone beyond that now which is definatly a good thing.:)
I agree with the work in progress :) Most threads like this are people nutting out thoughts & ideas and discussing them. They don't have to turn into debates where you have to choose a side and stick to it. I've known a few threads where my initial reply is different to my thoughts later on in the thread. It's all about discussion and learning :)
girls this is a great thread and yes its a work in progress but that is why we have them so our ideas and thoughts can evolve..
i have agreed with alot of things that have been said but im not brilliant with words to make beautiful posts!
Doudou, I think you are underselling yourself here. I think the amount of rep points you have testifies to your ability to write great posts.
Saša
I have done lots of reading and catching up in this thread and always been interrupted! Now I find myself at the end of the thread with a million things to say about all the little paths that have veered a bit off topic, but I think I'll just answer the original question. I must say I've found it very interesting reading and I've probably refined my thoughts about the phrase as I've read along.
To begin with I wasn't sure how I felt- the way I've taken this phrase when used before has been that you don't have to martyr yourself to make your child happy- my decision to return to part time work may kind of fit in with this. To me (and I know that everyone is different on this) I couldn't possibly enjoy the thought of just being at home as all there was to me. I was getting to the end of the day being ratty and wanting to hand DD over to daddy for a break- I'm sure at this time DD was not stimulated or having much fun. Having my 3 days work a week means that I appreciate her when I am home and we're both enjoying it more. It wasn't about whose needs came as a priority as I was lucky enough to have a DH who could move to 4 days a week work and a mum and MIL who were happy to do the other days. So I think we went from an unhappy mum and baby to a happy mum and baby.
On the other hand, I have always found it a bit of a trite thing to say, as we know it's not always true - of course you can make yourself happy and not be meeting the needs of your baby, so happy mum = happy baby is not always true, as many previous posts have covered.
So here we go - my theory:
Happy mums and happy bubs are not always mutually exclusive - ie. the phrase happy mum=happy bub can be true.
But the reverse is also true sometimes- unhappy mum can = happy bub (when you're up for what seems the hundredth time at night!)- this unhappiness may be fleeting but you have to admit it's not exactly making you happy in the short term.
At the same time happy mum sometimes = unhappy bubs. This can be true sometimes in a negative light (ie parents neglecting children), but also in my mind can be something mums and bubs just have to cope with from time to time- eg if you are giving yourself that bit of pamper time, but bubs is more keen on making you feel guilty for it by screaming the house down when passed to dad to be looked after. Once again this unhappiness may only be temporary.
And of course unhappy mum can=unhappy bubs. None of us want to be here..
So I think I've covered all bases.
And for those of you who want to be intellectually stimulated I would love to draw a venn diagram for you!! (Just being cheeky!)
After all of that, to me happy mum = happy bub is not a useful phrase. Not only is it untrue, as previously discussed it's a throwaway line that would really be better off replaced with more of a statement of guidance, that still supports a mum who is making a decision that might result in any one of the above variables. And I think that both the mum and the bub's wellbeing have to be taken into account. Otherwise the advice comes off as sounding self righteous and encourages people to be martyrs for their children, when sometimes kids have to get a bit used to not getting it all their own way.
Well who knows if I've managed to convey anything at all useful here!! But such an interesting topic, thought I had to work through it a bit.
After all of that, to me happy mum = happy bub is not a useful phrase. Not only is it untrue, as previously discussed it's a throwaway line that would really be better off replaced with more of a statement of guidance, that still supports a mum who is making a decision that might result in any one of the above variables. And I think that both the mum and the bub's wellbeing have to be taken into account. Otherwise the advice comes off as sounding self righteous and encourages people to be martyrs for their children, when sometimes kids have to get a bit used to not getting it all their own way.
Oh I like that!
I am still loving this thread! :)
Maya when i read your words that all mummies were not created equal it got me to thinking. I actually know several women who by dint of their personalities really really don't/aren't going to enjoy being SAHP's. It's not a failing, it's not a value judement, it's just that unless they change a great deal (which they might, what else changes us like our kids do?!) the things that my days revolve would make them completely mental and very quickly miserable. Sushee your posts have made me realise what a sacrifice it actually WAS for you to be a SAHP for the early years, and also how much more of a contribution to a happy world you're making by balancing your life in the way you need to. And how lucky i am that i DON'T have that dichotomy, that it's NOT a hard choice for me to make. I'm glad that i naturally felt as strongly as i did when i was leaving XP, and i see now how many hard decisions it has saved me facing.
I also have several confessions to make which are relevant because they're the bits of me i sweep aside most of the time (not in a martyry way, but in a factual way, i'll expand in a second...). I occasionally do freelance work for a few friends. Do i love it? YES! Would i want to give up being a SAHP and do it in a full-time or even more fully part-time way? No. Not yet. It isn't stimulating, not like the tasks i set myself are, but it is externally driven, rewarded work and having just a little of it in my life is the sauce which flavours the meal i have made myself as a SAHP. Also though i LOVE having DD and doing as i do with her, i will admit i am really looking forward to having another baby. One kid just ISN'T a full-time job. I have before now cared for friends kids and when you have 3 there's no struggling to find free time because you just know you can't get any - i am for some reason absolutely rubbish at giving up theoretical free-time and perfectly wonderful at accepting there genuinely ISN'T any to be had, does that make sense? So i feel i would be happier if i had a little more freelance work (which i hope to have soon) and another baby (ditto ;)). But at the moment i see it like i see my height - i'd like to be 5cm shorter, but i can't be and that's that. I'm not a martyr to my height or my lifestyle and i certainly don't feel i'm UNhappy, even if i am aware of things that might enhance my life.
Snacks - you didn't offend me at all! The thing about my BFing journey is that at the time i beat the crap out of myself because BF mattered SO SO much to me, and in retrospect it's hard to offend me over (accidentally especially!) because i did what i could and it is what it is. In some ways it was a lesson i needed to learn, kwim? DD WAS a brilliant feeder from birth and aside from a bit of high BP i had a perfect pregnancy and birth, got it all the way i wanted it. I really needed to be tripped up to learn a bit of compassion. Before it happened to me when a woman said or posted "I had to stop BF" i used to think "no, you CHOSE to stop BF or you didn't learn enough about BF" and now i have LIVED that it is not so easy to judge without knowing the precise circumstances. So now when a woman says that and expresses sadness and asks for advice i will actually ask the pertinent questions - how old was bubs (it is almost ALWAYS the 6-week growth spurt which leads women to doubt their supply, supp with FF and actually lose their milk), how was mums health (moderate to excessive bloodloss at birth and post-partum thyroiditis are both medical reasons which are often glossed over but which can both make establishing and maintaining supply very difficult) and so on and so on. My own trip-and-fall on the road of mama-ing has left me far more sympathetic to the scrapes and brusies of others and who wouldn't want that!? I have been a bit of a perfectionist all my life. I love nothing more than being the best and making it look easy and unfortunately (for my personal development) it can mainly come easily to me. But not with parenting. With parenting i have been taught that my best sometimes ISN'T good enough and sometimes not-good-enough just needs to be enough anyway. That was a really hard one for me! :redface:
So back to HB=HM and vice-versa... I think it is a platitude. And like any platitude it can be harmful, harmless or helpful, depending on the woman and the circumstance. In a situation like mine, when a woman is NOT happy and is told re: her circumatance or decision which she is unhappy about "HM=HB" it is dangerous - she might then stop talking about how she really feels, because admitting she is unhappy will be like admitting her baby must be too. She might "give up" striving to be the mum she wanted to be if she is made to feel that her idea of not-good-enough is all she is capable of. She might lose confidence as a mother in her abilities and feelings. In my situation (when i had to stop BF) it made me feel like i wasn't being heard. I used to read it and think "But aren't you listening!? I'm NOT HAPPY!" However, in a situation like, i don't know, say with my SAHMing but being poor - if someone said it WRT that, i wasn't offended or cheered. Even though my life wasn't perfect, i was still pretty happy with it. So a platitude just slid off - at the most i might have thought "wasn't that nice, they took the time to see how i am doing". I haven't lived it, and nor am i that kind of person, but i can imagine that for some women the decision they have made IS MADE and someone validating it for them might give them some feeling of confidence back.
So for me, i suppose this thread has made me think that in any situation where a mum is making a decision or facing a dilemma that makes people use the HM=HB platitude, i'm going to try to look to the heart of the WOMAN, not just the basic situation, and rather than give the platitude (which i don't think i have...but i might have, i don't know!) i'm going to try to help her TRULY rationalise what is happening so that she can be sure of her decision and move forward with it with confidence in her heart and not defeat.
Bx
I am truly baffled when I come on here sometimes. How can someone say I don't believe in the phrase happy mum = happy babies when you are all on the internet on BB obviously seeking to share your ideas on the net and to have an outlet away from your baby? Whether it is work, socialising, BB, we all have different outlets that make us happy. It is a flippant phrase and it is true to a certain extent. If a mother is truly miserable the baby will suffer. Some things bother some mums more than others, it a balancing act and I am sure alot of marriages suffer if a mother becomes a martyr and puts herself last all of the time. Where will it lead to? At the end of the day the family needs to be happy as a unit and however that happens is up to them.
i think a happy mummy means a happy baby. they pick up on you're feelings. my son knows when im upset and he gives me a hug, and when im a crappy mood so he is.
But i also think its case of a happy baby means a happy mummy.
no ones happy unless baby is lol
But i also think mums need to put them selves first sometimes. The world doesn't revolve around my son.
Thinking about it, when im sad my son makes me smile and when he is sad i make him smile.
so i guess we balance each other out
Sweetpeajan, I think you misunderstood our point a little bit. Of course, if mummy is truly unhappy, baby is not gonna be all that happy either. But just because mummy is happy, doesn't necessarily make the baby happy. Some people believe things make them happy that are very destructive. Like drinking (huge amounts, not the occasional drink) or even taking illicit drugs. That definitely won't make baby happy.
And of course, if mum always comes last (or never), it's not going to work out all that well. Being a martyr is never a good thing. Even though it might make you happy at the time (because you believe you're doing the right thing). Just because some of us mention that baby's needs come first, that doesn't mean mum's needs are completely irrelevant. It is all about balance.
My needs often come last. But that doesn't mean they're not met. Like for example, in the evening, I would like to sit down with DH and have a conversation. Or watch something on TV. But DD needs to be fed and put to bed. So, I feed her, put her to bed, then sit down with DH. So, my need or want came after DD's, but it was met.
Yes, in some cases it is an either or situation. And there we need to prioritise what is more important. Like when mum needs a medical treatment that will require her to wean. Well, if it is important, then baby's need for BM comes after mum's need for health (and to be honest, baby will benefit from a healthy mum). If mum doesn't want to BF because she believes it will make her boobs saggy, then maybe (and I said maybe, because some cases of body image issues are severe) baby's nutritional needs are more important.
Saša
That's how I see it, Sasa :)
Did you read the whole thread? I think what you're saying has been addressed quite extensively in the other pages.:
I think we've actually come to a consensus here - only posters don't read far enough in to see that consensus!
Can we add a post in, right before the first one, to say something like:
Does that seem about right?:
The current vein of the thread is as follows:
Mothers should be happy: not martyrs, but not ignoring the needs of their child. If the mother knows she is doing the best possible thing for her children in her situation and she is at peace with this, it is the best thing.
"Happy Mother = happy baby" is a statement too often used to just fob someone off without really listening to her problem or wanting to help, despite asking about it in the first place.
I think that's right. It might be a bit too controvercial to say that 'HM = HB shouldn't be used as an excuse to ignore the needs of a child' and/or 'Mothers shouldn't feel the need to justify their decisions with HM = HB in the first place' though I think those conclusions were also reached.