njd definatley take over!!
i think that is where i get cofused about natural concequenses to....if im faking an emotion to get him to realise it not right well then im making him feel guilty.....
AAHHH its so hard some days
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njd definatley take over!!
i think that is where i get cofused about natural concequenses to....if im faking an emotion to get him to realise it not right well then im making him feel guilty.....
AAHHH its so hard some days
I personally think that if you make sure they know it's the behaviour you don't like and not them personally then it's ok to tell them how your feeling and to show emotion. I think it's also important to promote empathy in children once they are able to understand the language. I know lots of adults that aren't very empathetic and they usually aren't that great to be around. The whole consequence thing is tricky and it depends on how you parent as to how effective or how well they understand them. Eg I think the attitude not to have any breakables in the house is great but there comes a time when children need to learn to respect other peoples belongings and this is a good thing to teach. In saying that children are egotistic and need help to achieve these skills. Asking lots of open ended questions when they are old enough (say 2-3+) like "how do you think that makes me feel when you do that(whatever it is)?" or "how would you feel if something you loved got broken" is a good thing I think. Anyway I suppose what i'm trying to say is that IMO we shouldn't be afraid to talk about our feelings with our children because hopefully when they are able they will openly talk about their feelings and emotions rather then bottling it up.
I agree with Olivesmummy, emotions are important for kids to learn to read. After all, they already know when you're happy and that's how they want to keep you. Sometimes I'll play up a hurt more than I'm really feeling it, just so that DS sees that emotion. 'Guilt' or empathy isn't bad to feel - it's what motivates us to be good to people! I can see how artificially generating guilt in a child can be problematic - you need to show them how others are going to act if he'd done the same thing to them. They're going to see it anyway when they're socialising more, so it's not a bad idea to practice reactions to it at home.
What I focus on more is when DS hurts someone else, then I'll 'tend to the injured' and SHOW him how to be in this situation. He's really picked it up - more the conventions than real contrition, contrition is a vague concept at this stage of the game and they WILL get it in a few years. Meanwhile, there are basic social conventions like acknowledging when you've impacted on someone negatively we have to do, as social animals. So, now, when I say 'ouchies' when DS clamps a little hard whilst BFing, he looks up at me and says 'Oh, sorry, Mummy'. It doesn't take long :)
Also, without focusing on people's belongings much at all, and just reacting positively, with love, compassion and reason in our home, he's mindful of other people's things now. Not always, and that's normal, but a lot of the time.
Kids don't do things to people to hurt their feelings at this age. In fact, they're usually mortified to find that a consequence of their actions has been to take the fun out of it for someone. Natural consequence = someone unhappy = desire to get back to status quo of contentedness.
That's just the way I see it :)
But when we "fake" emotions do we fake our emotions or the usually shown emotions? DS hurts me then I don't play with him until he apologises because I don't play with people who hurt me. And others, I assume, don't like people who hurt them (I do ask him to stop and show him how to be gentle first!).
I do withdraw a lot from him when he shouts at me. I am not as bad as I was: before, shouting in the house (my mum and my sister had really bad slanging matches) had me withdrawing to my room or even a friend's house for the week. So frequent were my withdrawals that I was scarcely missed! I had been at Uni 2 months before Mum stopped calling me down for dinner! If DS is screaming at me and I can't understand why I have to eventually walk away before my stress levels get up. This isn't a "normal person" response, but it is normal for me. What should I be modelling?
I think it's fine to walk away from screaming and i'm sure lots of people do the same. Could/do you explain why you do this? Screaming isn't acceptable behaviour and the consquence is that "because screaming hurts mummy's ears I will come back when you stop." Forgot to say about having an inside voice where you are and an outside voice where it's ok to be loud.
I tell him Mammy doesn't like shouting, that's not how you talk to Mammy. Normal voice please so I can understand you.
I then say Mammy doesn't like shouting, I am going to go if it continues.
I then say Mammy doesn't like shouting, goodbye.
I actually don't mind fun shouting, we do that just fine. It's the tantrummy sort of shouting I don't like (because someone out there really does LOL). I mostly head off tantrums by figuing out the problem, talking him through the problem or distraction. But if I'm not giving him biscuits because it's dinner time soon, it's in the oven, dinner after Charlie and Lola (stupid CBeebies moving that from 6pm to 5.45pm!)... and he tantrums because of that and won't calm down, tough. He's not going to starve.
Ok, loads to catch up on! :)
Re: carrying DD/behaviour near traffic etc. DD is now 15.7kg (very precise - had to have her weighed before moving her to a booster :)) and i still often carry her in the meitai. BUt i also let her walk plenty too, since she has masses of energy to burn off. I don't think the natural consequence of running into traffic is one she can comprehend. As we discussed above, i DO think allowing a child to experience a natural consequence is important, but i think that one has to keep in mind the potential severity of the lesson - i might tell her 4 times not to jump about on the stairs if she is 4 up from the bottom, because they are carpeted and would be bruised rather than broken if she fell. She has been bruised from falls before and i know she is able to relate my warning to her own experiences. But if a car hit her there is a very likely possibility she would suffere severe injuries or even death and i know she has no experience of that and cannot yet comprehend the potential of it, so i prevent her running onto the road.
How do i do it? Similarly to RH. I tell her if she wants to walk she needs to walk right in beside me. If she runs ahead or lags behind i remind her and she falls back in next to me. She MUST hold my fingers or hand (she often likes to hold my fingers rather than have her hand held because she has a strong need to feel control in her environment i think) to cross roads and if she refuses the only other choice is to go into the buggy or meitai (depending which we have with us). This is not a consequence, it is a rule and i don't feel rules are bad or unhelpful in parenting so long as i can always anmswer the question "why?" when it is asked. Even though she cannot understand the potential for injury or death in traffic, i always explain WHY she must hold my hand or jump in the buggy, because eventually i hope she WILL understand. I never say "just because" or "because i said so" because i don't prescribe to the idea that i know better in an automatic way.
Re: guilt. Hmmm. When my eggs were smashed or i am hit i AM upset. I'm not faking the emotions i feel, though i might be showing them more frankly than i would to another adult. As Maya says, guilt is a healthy part of the conscience. A person who never feels guilt is either perfect (no such thing) or a sociopath. I scorched DP's shirt the other day while ironing it. It's one of his favourites and he really likes it and i felt SO SO bad. DP's response was to sympathise and google what could be done (immediate cold-water, washing through and 6 hours in direct sunlight brought it out just fine) and i felt even worse! He didn't "make" me feel guilty, i felt it as an internal mechanism of my conscience. I believe in emotion. In letting DD experience that emotion. Most children WILL feel guilt when it is made clear to them that they have hurt or inconvenienced someone, and that is to be embraced and learned from, not avoided. Would i cry if i didn't feel it? Probably. It would depend on the action i was responding to. When DD threw my boot at me and it hit me in the face it DID make my eyes water, but i wouldn't normally cry from physical pain, though i did allow those tears to flow and tell DD in a very sad voice that she'd really really hurt Mama.
When i was a child and teen my mother used guilt against us. She did this by letting us know how much we'd hurt, angered or inconvenienced her AND THEN SHUTTING US OUT. I NEVER do this. Within seconds of the boot hitting my face DD was hugging me and angry as i felt of course i let her comfort me. I think guilt is only a hopeless emotion when we both encourage a child to feel it and prevent them from using it to drive them into making amends. Guilt can be so productive when it helps us to figure out who we want to be and how we want to act, it only becomes something which eats away at us when we are not allowed to act upon it to change things for the better.
Bx
I like this :) DS knows he has to hold my hand near the road and when he insists 'I walking" I tell him he can walk and hold my hand because it's "danger danger danger, look for the cars". Mostly, I don't automatically say "no" when he wants something, I will find a way to accomodate him, just not with the road, poisonous substances or when I have to be somewhere important like uni (for an exam or appointment). Because he knows that I'm not rigid, he comes to me with requests and doesn't hide when he's trying something new - I'm not the 'enemy' and I'm not going to set myself up as one. I don't like when people and experts say "You're not there to be their friend, you're the parent", as if they have to be mutually exclusive. Friends can still show leadership, and leadership is not something you beat into the people you are leading - ideally, you lead by example and empowerment...isn't that parenting? Some of my own community leaders are my friends!:
This is not a consequence, it is a rule and i don't feel rules are bad or unhelpful in parenting so long as i can always anmswer the question "why?" when it is asked.
Now, see, I am not going to be DS's "friend" until he has moved out. I like him, I hope he likes me. I want to be his confidant... but he will never be mine. I guess I had a "friend" mum - she off-loaded onto me how crap her husband and children were, she had no rules so all sorts of "bad" things happened (eg allowing young teens to sleep over at boyfriends, no curfews, out at the pub all night every night even schoolnights...) and of course that is not what I want for DS. I am his parent. I am not his boss, I am not his "lord and master"... his parent.
I guess I want us to treat each other with the respect and admiration with which we treat our friends, but ultimately he isn't my friend. I don't want to sound harsh with that, but I'm not going to get drunk, slag him off or not impose boundaries so I am liked. I will explain those boundaries (and "because I said so" is never an explaination) and they will be open to negotiation whenever possible, but I'm still the parent.
Does that make sense?
I'm really enjoying this discussion ladies thank you so much and a lot of what you are saying is really clear.
I never really had friends like that, or a mother like that RH! My definition of 'friend' must be a major departure from your experience. Especially now, the way I choose to keep friends is to decide if they nurture me and care about me, instead of if they care about whether I care about conrtibuting to reckless abandon and irresponsibility. My friendships (like, real friends, not just occasional people to hang out with) were never like that. It's one of the things I'd like to impart to DS, that friends are to be chosen carefully, friends don't ask you to change, friends don't ask you to compromise your values. I guess that's why I never had a bucketload of friends, but when I had friends they were good 'uns! Plus, you don't need to a be a 'peer friend' to be your child's friend. I AM DS's friend, as well as someone who loves him unconditionally and forever, no matter what happens. I don't subscribe to the idea that friends and mothers are mutually exclusive. If it's not your parenting style, then that's cool, too - as long as you're true to yourself.
I had big issues prior to DS's birth with changing my identity for his birth. I told our HypnoBirthing teacher that I was worried I couldn't be the mother I was supposed to be. I had the inclination to have fun with my baby and to be lighthearted and friendly and thought that this must be wrong, cos none of the other mummies I knew were like this. Our teacher was gold and did an exercise with us (non-HB exercise) where I immediately felt at ease just remaining true to myself, and that this was all my baby would require of me - anything else would be untrue. I knew I had succeeded in overcoming this fear when DS was about 2 months old and my dad told me that I acted more like DS's big sister than his mother. He wasn't accusing me, he was observing and he was using the stereotype of 'mother' to contrast me with. He didn't realise I'd had issues with this before DS was born, so this comment confirmed to me that I was on the right track :)
Long spiel to explain my rationale and outlook to my parenting. DS IS my little buddy and permissiveness doesn't have to be part of that. Love and reasoning can.
I have friends now who love me, rather than when I was younger and it was more about mutual survival or just someone who didn't watch Hollyoaks and could actually read a book for fun. But all the same, my friends don't tell me to go to bed (well, except VERY occasionally LOL), they don't make me get dressed in the morning when I like my pyjamas, my friends would never look after me the way I look after DS, nor would they make as many rules for my life as I make for DS's life. And those rules are good rules!
Yes, we are friendly to each other and no doubt DS would see me as a friend. But I'm old enough (and, I hope, wise enough) to know that the things I do with my friends are not things to do with DS - for example, getting a bit more than tipsy or having a whinge about DH or PiL. Not on to do that to your child. By all means DS can, when he's older, have a few drinks or tell me how his life isn't "fair" or whatnot but I'm not going to do the same to him. I have to show him what it means to be an adult, which means accepting the "not fair"ness of life and still getting on with it. (Although whinging is sometimes theraputic, it's not good to see this as the only things to do.)
Having said that, I am not "mother" in the traditional sense of the word. DS comes before housework. Fun and learning are the same things. We laugh and chase and have fun... now I don't remember being 2 but I do remember housework coming before everything and Dad telling us that he wasn't going to play because he was watching TV... in fact, he used to get me to shut my sister out the room so he could have his precious TV time. That doesn't happen. I play with DS a lot more than some other parents play with their children (it does help that I love his toys; I love Lego and Brio!) and we dance to music, chat as we're out for a walk, learn things together (I am never afraid to admit I don't know and to ask someone or read more about it: while I could lie it doesn't teach DS how to learn and it doesn't help me either). To me that's good parenting rather than being a friend though! I do call DS my little mate and he is; I do like him and enjoy his company, just as I do my friends. But I'd never tell my friends to say please before they could have the drink of milk!
Hmmm, I'm still of the firm mind that I can be DS's friend, and it doesn't have to be the same kind of friend I have as a peer, or the same kind of friend you'd have as a peer, or even of the same friendship definition you're working off (cos it really, definitely doesn't sound like what I mean by being DS's friend!). DS is my friend by MY friendship definition, not the one you're citing. Mine is "nurture, empower, support", or something along those lines, before it breaks down further into other categories of friends. This is quite a bit OT, though.
I also dont' have the emotional baggage of my mum trying to be my peer friend and burdening me with adult concepts and worries, so that could well contribute to those differences in our views.
I don't 'tell' DS to do anything unless it's about safety. I ask and I follow his lead. I give him a lot of agency, which a lot of people don't agree with (for reasons they give that I can't justify adopting with my child).
Maya, when you say you can be DS's friend, do you mean you two will be friends or you will be a friend to him? I think that's where the confusion is coming from. Because there is a difference (for me anyway) between YOU "supporting empowering nurturing" DS and expecting him to do the same back for you.
:hug: for you Ryn, the more i read about your teens, the more i want to nick DP's car and drive down just to hug you and then come home again (if i had 10 hours worth of childcare and was insured i'd do it)! I get exactly what you mean. My mum was actually great at just being a mum until i was a young adult - no 17 year old needs to hear how many ways their dad leaves your mum wanting, or burdened with the guilt of knowing your mum is unhappy when there's nothing YOU can do about it. But now i am a parent myself, having never never imposed that burden on me before i was able to carry it, my dad and i are really friends now. He is my confidant and i am his. We have moved beyond parent/child, and it is very valuable to me, he is among my best friends. But i would not attempt to have that with my kid before DD has had children of her own, and even then, if she has them at 16 i'll be moving that goalpost. :)
Bx
Yep, I think so, Bec - I know I'm his friend as well as his parent and I know that he relies on me absolutely and that's not him being my friend, that's him being a child and looking to me for nurturing, support and empowerment (learning) and that's how it's supposed to be. I incorporate friendship into my mothering role in a conscious way because it seems that parenthood is supposed to be about imposing rules and consequences and I move away from that into a different sphere of parenting that a lot of people don't understand for being inculcated into a sterner parenting model. After all, kids just want to be understood, just like we do :)
Ryn - just read your end note in the other thread, and yep, that's probably what I'm trying to say in my paragraph above!
Everyone has given plenty of good points here.
I will just respond to the original post with what I do in my household. My DD is well aware of what she can and can't touch that doesn't belong to her. But that's not the same everywhere she goes, so she wants to touch new things.
If she breaks something that does not belong to her, she straight away realises that it is broken and that is not what she meant to do. The only consequence for her that I enforce, is that she must take what she has broken (or I do if she is not able) to the person it belongs to and apologise. She is very downcast and quiet in her apology, but this to me means she understands to some extent and is sorry that it happened. When she has apologised, I then tell her we need to be very careful with other people's things and if she is not sure about touching something, come and ask Mummy. Realistically, she is too young to contain her enthusiasm for touching things, but I try to reinforce the message. Then I make sure I keep a very close eye on her when we are out and about. If I see her about to touch something that WILL break, I ask her to look with her eyes only and hold her hands behind her back. For some reason, that always works to hold her off until I'm close enough to move it!
At home, if she breaks something of mine, it's my fault. I shouldn't have left it where she could get it. She is still likely to say sorry to me, but I tell her it was an accident (as long as it was) and Mummy shouldn't have left it where it was. If deliberate, see above!
I should add though, I don't have a destructive child. She is not physical in her response to things, but very verbal. I try to line up my expectations with her capabilities.
I'm going to change my definition of DS from 'destructive' to 'demonstrative' or 'exploratory'! It just creates an unfair prejudice against him from other people. His goal is not to destroy, it's just what can happen when he doesn't understand the properties of an item, or the propriety of it. It sets him up as having an intent that he doesn't actually have. And it demonises him. When I know he CAN take great care with things that have been explained to him, or that he's figured out.:
I should add though, I don't have a destructive child. She is not physical in her response to things, but very verbal.
So, this is me moving away from that terminology!
Sorry Maya, I hadn't read that post so I was just being general in my terminology. I have had kids here who are destructive, I think no less of them, they just like to be physical with things beyond the point they were made to handle! We need demolition experts in the world just as much as we need engineers!
I should also add, another obvious consequence is if she's broken something and there's a mess I get her to help as much as possible in cleaning up (fetch a sponge/dustpan/bag, come with me to the bing, whatever).