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Roslyn - it starts on the 10th August you better hurry! One of the women I am supporting for her birth is going too. She's so lovely! It's run by Jules, you'll love her too! Here is the link: https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...ead.php?t=7273 and I can't guarantee a natural birth, but I can guarantee an empowered one where you have the best preparation ;) Let me know what you think of it! :)
Thanks kelly will read it later have to go and do some errands!!!
Really interested in it.
It makes it really hard in my situation IYKWIM , to me to go into natural labour will be a sense of achievement that my body can do it! I am hopeing that all has been fixed in the tumour department so i can do this also it's a sign for me that all is ok!!! I want the feeling of a natural labour i want to compare it and i think i can handle it better than an induced labour even my OBS said that induced labours can be quite more painful, it can cause your body to go into shock!!! I think thats what happened to me because of the intensity of the pain!!!
I do have to say that since my tumor has gone my periods have been on time every 33 days and i have never been regular so to me that is a sign that my body has finally amended!!!! So i have a good feeling that i will go into natural labour!!!
Anyway talk later have to go!!!
Thanks
I would probably do one, which would be more benefit fo my situation?
Induced Labour’:
1. Hold your hand out, clench, out, clench, out clench, out, clench, out, clench, out, clench, out, clench, out, clench, out – is your fist tired or sore yet? Imagine how this would feel for your uterus to do this for hours on end and what difference this could make during your labour and for your baby.
So so true, atleast it was like that with Jayden plus add the posterior baby ontop!!!!
But with James i had a good induction maybe he was ready to come just my body wasn't releasing the hormome!!!
Emma - Yes, I think people need to have a decent education into birth, starting as part of the school curriculum. I'm very seriously considering doing a childbirth education course (to become a childbirth educator, that is). I figure, it's really only an extension of a doula course, in that it'd go further into anatomy and physiology...and into things that don't concern a doula so much, such as conception/umm...you know, troubles trying to conceive, etc, and such. Gosh, I've had one drink to celebrate a Friday night,a nd I can't think to save myself!
Interesting questions Kelly.
I had done a hypno birthing workshop, and although it was very helpful, educational and empowering, I think it misled me as to how much pain there would be.
I had been in labour for 36 hours when I went to the birthing centre (3cm by that stage). I cried when I walked in and saw my midwife, all because I was so dissapointed that I was not coping with the pain in the way I thought I would (was picturing a very zen Cathy just chilling out through contractions).
I think what scared me most was that I knew the pain was just going to get worse and worse.
So I started talking to my midwife about the pain options again. However, I think just knowing they were available was enough, as I held out and had no pain relief until 8cms dilated, when because baby was breech and descent had slowed I needed to have a cesearean (so of course then had a spinal block and morphine).
So yes, I was very adamant in not wanting drugs, and although the pain was a shock, with my DH's support, and fabulous midwives, I did manage 2 whole days of labour with no pain relief, and am very proud of that.
Cathy, my course warned that birth wouldn't necessarily be pain free, but that i would deal with everything in a calm way at least, to bring my boy into the world peacefully even if not painlessly. i too was surprised at the intensity of the surges, but the HB definitely taught me to give control over to my body and I knew I'd make it. I had actually only really worked on visualising and reconceptualising the birth part (to great effect), but have recommended HB to everyone since.
Dear Kelly
I am in NSW and I had a normal physiological birth in every sense. In the labour ward (had to coz obstetrician doesn't do birth centre any more as it is so understaffed and chaotic) with husband and doula. Age 37, first child, 41 hours, but I did not go to hospital til I was 5cm. So I must be in the minority I reckon. Anyway I will write heaps more offline and send you a Word doc of my birth plan (ridiculously long-typical first time mum!) if you want. I have lots of feedback for what you wrote. We are NOT prepared for the pain - if it wasn't for the doula I would have crumbled and begged for gas at least. I did however read all Ina May G's books so knew about the Law of the Sphincter ;)
The only thing I would change this time (due Dec) is to have the oxytocin to help placenta as my body was so tired that it wouldn't push it out so it was "retained" and I had PPH, light GA (better than an epidural I figured) and it came out easy. This was after waiting 45mins for it to come out naturally. Yes my obstetrician is very flexible!!
Alanna
I have thought about this more overnight.
Pre-natal education
I had the good fortune to have Marie Burrows (featured in Saturday’s Good Weekend) for 10 weeks’ prenatal classes in my 3rd trimester. She acts out the labour with all the noises and swearing, with a doll that makes its way down a life-size human pelvis (bones). So I understood the whole toilet cistern thing and the absolute necessity of staying upright or on all fours to help mother nature.
At no point did she assume any of us would have drugs and most of us didn’t. I had labour ward birth, one woman had a home birth and the rest the birthing centre. Most of us in our very late 30s and first-time mums. This is Bondi in Sydney.
Our lifestyles
Re sedentary lifestyle, the knowledge that it could cause a posterior baby got us all moving around!!! Most of us have friends who have endured back labours and we know how hard they are to do drug-free.
To me there is no point comparing the pain with having your feet cut open (or as my sister put it, having both arms chopped off), because it is not a 10minute torture session. It is like a long-distance marathon. If anything, the pain is like gang rape of the most violent kind. But I haven’t been gang-raped so that is equally dumb and insensitive to say. It goes without saying that for the majority of women, labour will be the most violence they have ever experienced in their lives. That is labour. It is excruciating and you can’t control it. It is less excruciating if you distract yourself by walking, rocking etc, and kill time however you can, but I think the most important thing is to relinquish all control – and therein lies the rub for us 21st century “intelligent” women. We don’t want to do that.
Sexual assault survivors
For those women who have been sexually abused as children an therefore have body issues to put it mildly, I don’t think they should try to be heroes and go with a natural birth. I am speaking knowing friends in this situation. The whole letting your body take over thing is way too frightening for someone whose body has been violated/held down at a very young age. If they choose voluntary c-sections, so what. They know c-sections are more dangerous for mum and baby but they go for it anyway. I don't think others should judge them harshly for it.
Crisis of confidence
One midwife told me that at Liverpool hospital (in a predominantly non-anglo part of Sydney, lots of muslim women from middle east), women arrive knowing they can do it, rather than the anglo women who arrive wondering if they can do it. Enough said. I am anglo, over-controlling, eldest child, capricorn etc etc. no wonder it took 41 hours!!!
Birth plans
Midwives also say that the longer the birth plan, the more likely the woman crumbles and gets aboard the intervention rollercoaster! Mine was way too long but because I had a doula, we did in fact stick to it. (no drugs, everyone out of room once bub born etc etc). I guess I was a Category 5, Kelly!
Aleanbh - probably more appropriate to say that that is labour for you. My labour was intense and a bit of a surprise, but I did not feel it was violent, it was not unnecessary or even traumatic. For me, labour education was minimal and every man and his dog was ready to tell me the birth is the killer and to take the drugs etc etc. Birth for me was a really wonderful experience, the labour was the biggest challene I think I've ever had in my life...but I DID give it over to my body, knowing I could do it (like most non-Anglo/Celtic/Saxon women, even though I'm half Celtic!) because I knew my body (in a normal pregnancy situation and so far normal labour scenario) would not put me through more than I could handle. I had no fear. The muslim women you mention have no fear. "Westernised" women have learned to have fear of the birthing process. This is one of the biggest keys to birth complications. Fear=Tension=Pain is the main culprit and I learned techniques to avoid that, as well as just educating myself as to what happens during birth. Also, without the fear and in a hypnotic state, I had no need to scream or swear. I literally 'hummed' Oscar out (HypnoBirthing says to 'breathe the baby down', but I went one better, being a singer!) and felt no compunction to add any violence to the process. Sure, most women verbalise when giving birth, and that's their way. But whenever I projected myself, during the pregnancy, to the time of the birth, not once did I see myself screaming or shouting - I pictured myself in a serene state, guiding the baby out and into the water. I don't think I fluked an easy birth. I prepared for it, knowing that I was having a normal pregnancy and that there was no reason for me to have anything but a normal birth. Many women present with risk factors or problems and I could have easily been one of these, but I would have known in advance of the birth itself. I just don't believe birth or labour need to be presented as something to steel yourself for, nor is there any need, in most cases, to anticipate it as a violent process. I do have to disagree with you there. Birth is not supposed to be violent, we have made it that way by medicalising it and creating fear.
I think (and as Rhea says) at the end of the day if you want a natural / drug-free birth you have to set yourself up for one, through the right support, choice of carers, birthing environment, pre-birth education - the works. :) It's all good rocking up with a birth plan for a natural birth, but you have to do the footwork first and really believe you can, to truly get there.
Thanks IK - you're right, it was my experience, I can only speak for that one. My birth was in fact v like yours - like I said, everyone says it was textbook, I didn't cry out once (let alone swear), it was all v peaceful for baby. I was just referring to the intensity of the pain (not afraid of it, embraced it), and how the metaphors (incl. mine) are all inadeqaute. My philospohy was:pain is not a dirty word, it is part of life etc. Life isn't all beauty and tranquility, it contains violence and that is part of how we have survived as a species etc etc. I think we all come to view things differently with time too - mine is still quite fresh in mind!:
A
I could not agree more - if I had not set myself up for it I would have caved as so many women you have seen Kelly. I had had major abdominal surgery in pregnancy (ovarian cystectomy with a mid-line laparotomy), plus the previous pregnancy was ectopic! AND I was 38. Yet I did not get medicalised or even patientised, thanks to my doula and husband. We all knew what we wanted - it was all about the baby, keeping him happy, and that focus really worked!:
I haven't read this entire thread yet... kids here need my attention... but I just wanted to agree with this:
"When I was going through transition with my daughter, I said "I want an epidural"...now, I was in a birth centre, and would have had to be transferred to have an epidural in any case, but I really didn't want an epidural at all, not even when I was saying it. What I wanted, and needed, was to express my tension, to let go of it, to release some anger and exhaustion."
This was also my experience, and luckily Kelly knew what I was on about! LOL
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but find the comments I did read very interesting. My experience during pregnancy was one of maturation - when I got pg I straight away wanted an OB to deliver my baby - I bought into the whole culture of fear thing. My DH didn't question my choice (much!) save to say "hang on, if women have been doing this for thousands of years why the big deal". But during pg I decided to take my childbirth education into my own hands and attended the Maternity Coalition seminars in Brunswick and heard Rita speak on "Natural Brith - Is it possible?" plus a few other topics they presented. While Ithough I was "motivated" for a natural birth I found myself in the high risk category for intervention - private hospital (one of only two in the room!!), OB attending, educated, over 30, etc etc.
I must say I was impressed with Rita's knowledge and passion for the natural brith process, but my DH and I did leave her session feeling like we had watched "a current affair" for two hours - lots of dire warnings and stats. OK, so I was high risk - I didn't want to be - what could I do now? As the answer was "surround yourself with people/choices that are conducive to natural birth", I appeared "stuffed", from the picture Rita painted. (BTW, that would be my criticism on that session Rita runs - a little more on how to find resources to get yourself out of the stuffed situation would be good - maybe something you can do, Kelly, when you run your sessions?)
So DH and I did alot of talking and we hooked up with a student midwife (who unfortunately couldn't attend Flynn's birth cause she had the flu!!) who did more talking and attended a few OB visits with me. I read "Active Birth", started thinking about a birth plan, read heaps on bellybelly and wrote a birth plan.
Luckily for me, my birth process seemed to work in my favour - my waters broke naturally the day before my due date, and while my OB wanted me to stay overnight in hospital I was confident to refuse his persistent insistance and stay at home. I got to 9cm dialated at home before I even went to hospital (OB later said "next time don't wait so long" - yeah, I had a tape measure out and did it deliberately!) and at one point in early labour I said to my DH that I was sorry I was booked in for hospital because home felt the most natural place to be. Things slowed down, of course, when I got to hospital, but as DH was aware of the risk of this he was careful to distract me from the monitoring, remind me to be calm, etc. In the end I delivered Flynn without drugs (I had gas just as a distraction - I'm told when you are fully dialated nothing helps the pain) and wihout manual assistance, though cause I hadn't slept in 24 hours an oxytocin drip helped contractions get him out - he was corkscrewing for 3 hours which felt like an eternity. My only regrets were a snip suggested by OB (one stitch) and pushing with holding breath (not how I will do it next time). My final words to my OB before he left me in hospital a few days after Flynn was born was "you don't do home births do you?" LOL!
So basically, my comments are that even if someone starts off scared and unsure, a little clear thinking, self-education and confidence in the natural birth process can do wonders. Plus handly little assistances from your body, like a natural start to labour, a non-breech baby, and so on, never goes astray.......
I know how much I want it that nothing will change my mind. If there's a problem, cut it out, otherwise leave me the hell alone. I don't pretend I can prepare for the pain, but I know what inteferring will do to me and my baby and I simply won't do it. I know that's worth all the pain I'll go through.
Good one, Azima! Now you just need to work on how to conceptualise the 'pain' so that you can decrease your perception of it :) For me, the most 'painful' part of the experience were the contractions, but even they ended up being bearable because of the preparation I did.
Hmm... thanks. That's given me food for thought.:
I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to say thank you to all who wrote in it! :)
Its helped me enormously! I really do want a drug free birth and don't want to be one of "those" women who give up after the first contraction! DH and I have now disucssed it and he is more then well aware of my desires and interests and has promised me to be my sane side druing the birth - ie asking me a number of times over a period of time before accepting drugs etc.
Anyways just wanted to say thank you!! :)
Hi Kelly,
I also recently attended the "Choices for Childbirth" classes on Friday nights in Brunswick and was present at the class you mention.
I found all of the classes to be very helpful in that they forced myself and my partner to really think through our expectations and desires for the birth of our baby.
However, wanted to mention that I was kind of disappointed with the class you're referring to as I felt that it offerred no concrete suggestions for actually coping with the pain of childbirth.
Although I didn't have any problem with listening to the tape of the woman crying out in pain during childbirth, I was kind of hoping for a few suggestions or strategies for actually dealing with the pain.
Maybe it might have been useful to have some sort of discussion regarding strategies such as attempting to have the baby in the optimal position for giving birth (for example, a discussion re: anterior vs postier babies) or research regarding the effects of having a birth attendent present (in terms of a reduction in the length of labour and interventions) or the positive impact of hypno birthing for some women.
It kind of concerns me that maybe playing a tape of a woman crying out in pain might actually serve to achieve nothing more than instilling fear in women that are already feeling anxious. Although I'm not completely convinced that hypno birthing will be a successful strategy for me, I can see that fear can lead to tension which will maybe result in even more pain, or in a situation in which women who have chosen to give birth in hospital end up giving their power away to a well meaning nurse or ob who is pushing for intervention - thereby inadvertently leading to a less than optimal birth.
I came away from that class acutely aware that childbirth is REALLY going to hurt, and with an understandinging of the effects of intervention of the birthing process, but no real strategies for the sorts of things that i might try to avoid the intervention/drugs with the exception of having a homebirth where such interventions are not really possible.
Good luck with running the course next year! Hope it goes well!
Thanks for the feedback! I am no longer running the Balwyn Choices anymore, there have been some big changes due to many people moving on, I chose to do so also, but there is plenty more happening with Choices and new things coming too.
The Pink Kit is something you can do in your own home, and addresses all sorts of things like that - if you can get your hands on it, might be helpful and you can do it in your own home :)
I don't know about this class, Claire, however, just know that birth does not have to involve REALLY hurting. Sometimes there's no hurting at all, sometimes it is quite manageable.
My key advice is to spend the time to visualise the kind of birth you WANT to have. I visualised my calm face as the baby came down, I visualised a quiet environment with me doing 'all the work', I visualised me either singing or just humming gently. I ended up humming as I did my birth breathing (from HypnoBirthing), and everything else happened as visualised.
For many reasons, you may not have the birth you've visualised, but by making it real in your mind you are that much closer to the birth of your choice than if you don't picture what you want in your mind.
Also bear in mind that the brain does not process negatives. So, telling yourself what you DON'T want, perversely has the effect of planting the seed of the thing you don't want in your mind. To explain. If you say you don't want pain, your brain does not process the 'don't' bit, and just hears the 'pain' bit. You'll find yourself fixating on the pain factor, which is just going to create that tension, which WILL lead to some sort of pain (not maybe).
I cannot stress enough that concentrating on what you DO want is absolutely key. Even if the course of events leads to necessary interventions, you will have a far more positive experience if you can eliminate fear as much as possible.
birth is only as painful as you percieve it. and of course its hard to imagine before you experience it!:
I came away from that class acutely aware that childbirth is REALLY going to hurt,
i had pethidene with my first, not really cause i couldnt bear the pain, i was just so agitated and anxious and it did work calm me down (and sleep, LOL).it wore off just before the birth anyways (woke me up! ROFL)
next birth totally drug free.
contractions just feel like a bad stomach ache, ive had plently of those in my time. and when the heads crowns you feel a quick, stinging sensation. it really is managable if you want to avoid drugs:) i just kept repeating to myself that the pain was good, and for a reason - every pain just bought my baby closer to being with me...
Thanks for your replies IK and johT! The kind of birthing experience that both of you describe is what I'm hoping for! I guess that's what kind of bothered me about the "Pain in Childbirth" class that I recently attended - the whole 2 hour class seemed to be very much focused on the notion that childbirth is/would be incredibly painful. Although Rhea Dempsy (who ran the class) was very entertaining and kind of acted out the kinds of things women say and do when they're in pain, the message seemed to be very much focused on how bad the pain was going to be (yet without providing any concrete strategies to cope with it - or exploring the possibility of minimising pain or discomfort without drugs). However, I'm aware that not all women experience a such a painful labour and that many find the pain managable (am hoping to be one of them)! I found it a bit worrying that hammering home the notion that childbirth was/would be an inherently painful experience could have quite an impact, especially as the class had approximately 40+ women and partners attending. Would love to see the "Choices for Childbirth" sessions incorporate some of the strategies that both of you have mentioned.
Kelly - thanks for such a quick reply! I've not investigated the "pink kit" as yet, but will look into it!
CJ.
I too think they need to be prepared, but its how they perceive pain, what they do with it and who's around them that matters. I had a gorgeous HypnoBirthing couple, she had some false labour around 26 weeks and she completely freaked out. She said that if labour is like that, I dont know how I would cope and how hypnobirthing could help me - she became instantly skeptical. Now if she went into labour and flipped out, could have been a worse situation.
I think women need to be more skills and tools so they have more to pull out of their tricks box.
btw. She had an awesome drug free birth with an almost 10lb baby, no tears.
I agree.. it hurts! That last 1/2hr or so (transition) is awful! THAT's where good support comes in, coz you're ready to crack by then.
But it's TOTALLY do-able :)
i also will admit that i am a total utter wuss. i thought i would need every d r u g available with my first:oops: so didnt want to really know about the effect on the baby:eek: the possible side effects of epidurals (like becoming permanently paralised) did worry me though.
for me having a tatoo on my shoulder pain was alot worse than childbirth.i bawled like a baby. i guess i could keep stopping/starting the tatooist, which probably made it worse!! it was the most unnatural pain ever..and most people say tattoo's dont hurt at all - not me!
I am with Shannon - the pain is extreme, having said that though, I think alot if does still depend on your own goals and how you have mentally prepared yourself.
I personally found that the experience from No 1, made all of the difference with No 2, and while the pain was still intense I actually managed to embrace it and work with it rather than against it.
I respect what everyone has said, but I honestly believe you can have NO concept of what childbirth is like until you have been through it yourself.
Thanks Kelly and others for a very interesting ramble on the whole 'how to cope with pain' issue.
I hope that I am well and truly in the 'Highly Motivated for Normal birth (10-15%)' catergory by now. I also heard Rhea give this talk at the choices for childbirth classes. Oddly enough it was one of most powerful concepts for me, as I could see throughout my pregnancy how I had been in a few of all of these groups, I think except for the first one, and how my journey and reading had finally brought me into the highly motivated catergory.
I have my doula, and am going to a birth centre. I have my partner who is determined to ensure I get the normal physiological childbirth I am after, no matter how much I scream for the pethidine/gas/epidural. He says it will by my punishment for dragging him along to 6 nights of birth classes on top of the hospital ones we did!!
I really wanted to have the home birth with a pool, but in the end the 'pressure' to perform after forking out so much money for this option kind of put me off. In an ideal world this would be the first and cheapest option that we could all have. Espcially given the Royal Womens Hospital is only about a 15 minutes walk from our house!
I am due this Wed - 4 days to go - can hardly wait, and everyday I wake up talking to my bub saying I am ready when ever you are, let's do this thing.
I feel very relaxed and at ease in my body, am sleeping well, and have no work obligations or other children to look after, so I am truly treasuring this special time at home preparing the nest and being with my preggie belly.
Although I don't post that much, I love reading all the forums, this site has been my number one resource and jumping off point for all other materials resources I have found - well done to the belly belly team for providing such a well informed site.
Cheers - Renaee.
This has really given me some food for thought! I am starting to think about what to put in my birth plan, and Kelly, I like what you have said about not just copying out a birth plan that sounds good, but really thinking about how far you do want to be pushed. I want to be realistic about the whole thing, so am trying to visualise myself in the situation so I can really 'plan' for it.
Some advice - make at least 5 copies of the plan and keep them with you. The hospital lost my plan, so I summerised it to "don't offer me drugs and we want to find out the gender ourselves." Drugs were very much pushed, but they were really good with the gender bit! Even though I'd told him drugs would kll the baby, DH was encouraging me to try them and I wasn't in pain at that point!
We also had a pre-theatre drugs panic because of DH's genetic problem, it took quite a bit of me explaining whilst I was pushing to make people realise that I can have this drug but my baby may have a problem with it. The info was in my birth plan and it would have helped a lot for that not to be lost!
I'm going to really have to think about my birth plan this time around, as i know if i write down no drugs, my Dh will make me stick to it, no questions asked!!!! With my second child, he wouldn't let the midwives turn up my gas too high, because he said with my first child i got a little too high lol. (ended up swearing at him to turn the bl#$dy gas up!)
I think that the birth plans, if they are to be any use, need to be far more specific. Eg instead of saying "I prefer not to have an epi" it would say that and then continue "if I request epidural anesthesia I would like to be encouraged to use [a change of position, water, heat packs, counter pressure, guided imagery, breathing techniques as practiced previously etc etc whatever the woman prefers to try] I would like to wait 30 minutes/another 10 contractions/whatever before reconsidering having the epi". Or whatever you like. The midwives and other staff should not be put in the position of having to make the decision for the woman.
I think that's a great point angelfish. You are right. If they have something very specific to follow it would make it much easier on them. I am going to take that on board when writing mine, thanks.
I have to say it's topics like these that have made me so happy I found belly belly.
I really would love to have a natural drug free birth. Of course I am also trying to stay open minded about it all. But I don't even take panadol, so I'm hoping my convictions might do me well.
I watched a video at baby school the other day that was so motivational to go drug free, where a newborn crawled up it's mothers abdomen so it could feed! and those births involving drugs only about 10% managed to even ry te crawl and hardley any suckled efecivley. I would love that kind of bonding.
I agree Rebecca - belly belly certainly helped me prepare for the birth of my daughter - I was reading the post that I did back in July for this topic when I was only just pregnant. Now that I have been through the pregnancy and the labour I can say that I still support everything that I wrote back in July. I went into my labour informed but had no birth plan. I had discussed with my support person (DH) my thoughts. I went in with the opinion of 'go with the flow'. I informed the midwife at the beginning that I was aware of my pain relief options and that if I wanted anything I would ask. I had a normal delivery with no drugs! I agree that transition is definitely the hardest time and you do need a good support person to help get throught that as even though I knew I was in transition, it didn't matter! I don't think anything could have 'prepared' me as such for the intensity of the pain and how tiring the entire process was. Sitting here writing this I am trying to think how I would describe labour to someone and the funny thing is, I can't! There are no words to describe. Every description I was given prior doesn't compare to what I felt. So still support my previous post (page 1). Education on what is available, the pros and cons, and a belief that you can do it are the big factors, imo, for achieving a natural drug free labour.