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Greg, you are a man after my own heart. Well done for sticking up for your wife and baby like you did. You rock! Congrats on an informed and empowered (and at times frustrating!) journey. I am sure you did her proud. Make sure you share what you now know and have learnt. We often learn this on our last babies and don't get to do anything with it, but make sure the men around you know too.
Greg you rock!
If every woman had a man like you, I'd be out of a job ;)
Congratulations on your new little boy :)
:D I typed it over several days.:
They actually provide a form included amongst a bunch of other information, where you can "give feedback on your hospital experience". The space to do so is only a few short lines on one section of those pamphlets that are folded into three - tiny enough to discourage most people. I thought about it - and the midwife had mentioned it too - but really, would it do any good? [sigh]:
I hope you are putting in a formal complaint against that Dr. He had no right to bully you like that. And that's exactly what it was.
Thank you - on both counts. :):
I am so sorry that you all had to all suffer so much.
Congratulations on your new little man :hug:
In the first couple of visits with the midwife (after hearing our various choices), had asked if we had considered a home birth. She actually warned us something like this might happen too - but I sort of didn't focus on that comment any more at the time than everything else she spoke about.:
In the hospital she suggested some newish birth centre at Belmont (NSW) Hospital would be perfect for us - but I think she also said they might not accept us due to being > 40.
We sure do hate hospitals though. The long drive each day to visit - and then paying for carparking on top of the petrol (or walking 1km from where parking is free)... The terrible food... The cleaners vacuuming the rooms at 5am. (No sleep for the mother.) People turning lights on and off - nurses chatting away at all hours... I don't know how anyone can get BETTER in a place like that where they get no more than two hours of continuous sleep. (More like torture than health care.)
At the very start I was chuckling to myself... All these people gathering around... It was like they were all in a trance - pulling in closer and closer to listen - and more of them kept appearing!:
I think was partially that he had trainees in tow - and had to prove something to them. (And of course the fact it's sacrilege anyone that hasn't spent their 6-8 years in Uni doing essays should think outside their little medical boxes.):
I can't believe they gave you so much crap, no one blinked when I refused both injections...
Thank you. :):
Didn't feel that way at the time - believe me! No sleep, no shower, greasy hair... Yuck!:
I am sure you did her proud.
What's sad is, in our group of friends there are two doctors. So the people around us don't question much - of anything. They just fall into lockstep and do what they're told. One lady we know had a C-section arranged because her OB was going on a month's holiday the next day and didn't want another doctor.:
We often learn this on our last babies and don't get to do anything with it, but make sure the men around you know too.
Heh - thanks... I've often though if I wasn't ill - and were younger - I'd like to start out to help others in some way (due to the vast majority of the medical community often seeming to be going in the wrong direction).:
Thanks again ladies... :D
Greg, while it may not help you out making a complaint it may just well help out another parent and baby in a similar situation.
Who knows, perhaps there has already been complaints about him, and your extra one might be all it needs for them to do something about it. KWIM ?
Of course it's totally your decision too. :D
Greg, I am so glad you have posted the birth story. I am sorry that you had to deal with so much, but I am so glad that you stood up for yourselves and finally got a great result. I wish your family all the very best for the future. You have done a great thing for your children by educating yourselves and refusing to be pressured. You are an example to all. Well done, and congratulations on your son.
Yep, point taken. It just occurred to me we don't even know WHO he was. He came out of nowhere, and we never saw him again.:
Greg I put in complaints about our OB at the hospital the second time around. I got a letter back from QLD health saying they would take it on board. So I have no idea if it helped or not, but I felt like the more complaints they have, the more likely they are to take notice.
I had 1 OB say I better book in for a c/s from the scan showing a "big baby", and another say that I was risking my baby's life by going overdue. I went 11 days post EDD and had my VBAC with a 4kg baby. Not too big in the end.
Hi Greg
Just read your post. I was absolutely infuriated with what those people put you through. Seems these days everything is about making life easier for the medical professionals at the expense of the mother and baby.
I am due to give birth in Newcastle early next year, and my husband and I had already decided not to vaccinate or have VitK as we already have two children with long term damage from these injections.
I am going to a different hospital but I need to have a caesar for medical reasons, which makes me even more concerned as I will be immobile for a while afterwards.
My husband is as much against intervention as I am, so I am going to get him to read your post and hopefully it will give him some extra confidence.
Thankyou for sharing your experience with us, although it must have been awful for you.
P.S.My last baby was born when I was 39 and I was constantly reminded that I was an older mother and to expect complications. As it turned out it all went very well, completely normal delivery and perfectly healthy baby (before immunising).
I will be 45 when this one is born - wonder what they will make of that!!!
Kind Regards
Lisa B.
Endangering baby's life... LOL. How would they even know, since they scare everyone into not going full term!? Since they've been advising it now for decades, there's probably no statistics to base the fantasy on anyway.:
4kg... How ever did you manage... (Yeah right.) You do know he'll now be using YOU as an example to con any other of those "geriatric mothers" he meets into induction:
Dr: "Miss Jones, I knew a mother in her 40s who insisted in going into labour naturally. She went nearly two weeks over her due date - and the baby was a HUGE 4kg! It could have been a disaster!"
(Translation: I don't want to get called in at 3am - and that mother and baby were completely healthy with zero complications.)
Mother: "Wow. Really!? How dare I interfere with your early morning golf game. Better go ahead and book me in. What time suits YOU best, Dr?"
;)
Hi Lisa. My heart goes out to you... The more I learn about vacc. the more I'm angered such gross misinformation has been promoted for so long that so few even think they should question it. (You might like to consider sharing your story with the folks at AVN - > AVN - Home= - they're looking for experiences such as your family's.):
We were told even if we couldn't get into the Belmont "alternative birth centre" (sorry - I don't know what it's called) next time because of our age... We were told the standard labour section of Belmont hospital is pretty flexible/lenient/understanding compared with elsewhere. (Maybe it's because they have some of the same staff?) So depending on where you live - and if you think you could get there in time when labour starts :pray: - you might consider Belmont.
The reason I suggest it is, I'm afraid our experience may make things worse for others in the future - at the JHH at least. I can just imagine the staff sitting down to a monthly staff meeting - and bringing up what happened with us - and making suggestions that DOCS (etc.) be called in the next time ICU (or I should say - "the doctor who sticks his head into ICU for a few minutes each day") encounters a pair of those "difficult non-vaccinating" parents.
As you may know, it happened recently to a family in Sydney. The woman had been exposed to Hep B in the past (not actually infected), and so she developed antibodies. A test that didn't differentiate between having *antibodies* and actually having *the disease* itself, caused her Hep B status to be flagged. So as she wasn't a sufferer, she wasn't a danger to her child. Even if she was, she still has the same legal right as everyone else in this country (to decline any/all vaccinations). But two so-called "doctors", DOCS employees, and a judge are trying to take ALL their children away by force, and vaccinate at least the newborn against the parent's wishes. Since they're concerned of possible vaccine damage the family has been forced into hiding! The media have told nothing but outright lies about the situation. This has biased the public against the parents and paints anyone with legitimate vaccine concerns as being members of some sick, child-abusing cult.
Anyway... Maybe you'd consider having someone at the birth to back you both up. When people said it to us, we said, "No thanks - we'll be right." But we sure will consider it next time. I tend to think the few bad/arrogant medical staff would pull their heads in a bit more, were there an unbiased third party present.
I think there was a training doula in Newcastle advertising on this site a few months ago - stating she would attend for reimbursement of her costs such as fuel, etc.
You're welcome. :D:
I am going to a different hospital but I need to have a caesar for medical reasons, which makes me even more concerned as I will be immobile for a while afterwards.
My husband is as much against intervention as I am, so I am going to get him to read your post and hopefully it will give him some extra confidence.
Thankyou for sharing your experience with us, although it must have been awful for you.
If there's a next time for us, I think we'll definitely have a third party present, or perhaps print out some kind of document in the weeks beforehand, to be signed by someone in authority at the hospital - stating they will not interfere with our choices. If they're not prepared to do that - then we'll just go elsewhere - or do it at home! I'm NOT going to allow what is happening to that poor Sydney family, happen to us.
I shudder to think. :D Although again I'll say most staff were fine. But as the family situation I mentioned above shows, it only takes one misinformed jerk on a self-righteous mission, to turn your whole family's lives upside down.:
P.S.My last baby was born when I was 39 and I was constantly reminded that I was an older mother and to expect complications. As it turned out it all went very well, completely normal delivery and perfectly healthy baby (before immunising).
I will be 45 when this one is born - wonder what they will make of that!!!
Complaints can also be made to the Maternity Coalition too, which isn't a department ;)
Hi Greg
Thanks for your reply.
I have been following the story of the Sydney couple and their mistreatment by DOCS. It's just sickening!
I am under the care of an OB - Glen Lowe at Newcastle and will be having the ceasar at Newcastle Private. So far he hasn't even batted an eyelid at our choice not to immunise.
But that's not too say the paediatrician won't. Aparantly I need a paed to be present at the ceasar.
I will be seeing our family GP in a few weeks and am going to ask him if we can get a medical exemption for the new baby. My other children have medical exemptions from any further immunisation due to adverse reactions.
I am not sure if you can actually get an exemption on the grounds of family history but we will be trying. There is also a section on the exemption form where a Dr. can suggest that the immunisations be delayed for medical reasons.So I am hoping that we can fit into either catergory.If not we will fill out the conscientious objection form and make sure everyone is aware of our choice. I am hoping that having a medical exemption will carry more weight with the other medicos, and they might leave us alone.
I'll have a look and see if I can find the thread for the doula you spoke about as we don't have anyone else that will support our wishes.
Kind regards
LisaB.
Thanks... Hm, I wonder if they might be able to help that Sydney family.:
Wow Greg, what an ordeal. Well done to you sticking up for everything you've researched so thoroughly. No one really questioned us about refusing the HepB, they kept asking us if we're still not having it LOL.. but then when we said no they just accepted it. Probably helped that we planned to vaccinate, just didn't want her as a prem to have anything. So we're different there :)
I had a big baby in the NICU. She was 3.5kg (7lb 14oz) at 34wks. No GD, dates were right etc etc etc. And I'm with everyone when they say 'imagine if you went full term!' LOL. But when my OB said that if I have another baby and it's looking big we'd look at 'alternate' birthing method, I made it pretty clear we wouldn't! So no doubt I'll have a fight on my hands for the next one. But our OB is pretty good really. I'm pretty sure my body will kick the baby out again if it's getting too big ;)
But I'm shocked at how you were treated in the NICU. I'd be complaining left right & centre. DD was put on the drip early on for sugar levels, and it also had other supplements in it, so basically there was no problem waiting for my milk to come in. When it took a few days for it to come in properly they were starting to threaten formula (geez.. they think a baby is gonna starve in a couple of days waiting the natural amount of time it takes for milk to come in), but I refused to sign the consent and it was written everywhere that I was refusing formula for my bub. So I'm shocked that they just gave your bub formula?? no consent or anything?? I also refused bottle feeds for her, all suck feeds were to be from me, and tube feeds of EBM.
So glad to hear everyone is well tho after such a rocky start!
:
Sorry to hijack this thread )
Lisa, take a Doula with you if you can, that changes things dramatically. Have a look at the register or look at the Trainee Doulas.
Good Luck!!!
Lila
P.S. I am a Doula in training myself (Central Coast) and will, once I have finished my training, put my mainfocus on medical necessary c/s (as I have experienced them myself 3 of them)....
Greg,
what a story. It is unbelievable! Its 2008 and things like that just shouldn't happen.
All the best-
you are a wonderful husband :clap:
Lila
Yep, even if people disagree with the parents and agree with the doctors, they should be worried about what it means. All it takes is someone like that doctor to disagree with any medical choice you make and go to a judge to force you to do what they want. Even when your right to make that choice is written in Australian law. When/if you get your children back (or you comply), you'll then have to put up with the regular interference of DOCS from then on.:
Yes - we know someone who had a c-section at the private hosp. at Lambton (because their OB was going on two weeks holiday, actually!). We tried to talk them out of it, but they were set on it because they didn't want a different doctor if her labour began before he arrived back. (Not a choice we'd make, that's for sure.) Since then she has tried to fall pregnant again. She did but lost the baby and has been unable to fall pregnant since for several years now.:
I am under the care of an OB - Glen Lowe at Newcastle and will be having the ceasar at Newcastle Private. So far he hasn't even batted an eyelid at our choice not to immunise.
But that's not too say the paediatrician won't. Aparantly I need a paed to be present at the ceasar.
Anyway, I got sidetracked... I think they had to have a paed present as well.
I think from reading I can tell you know anyone can refuse vaccination (without a doctor's exemption) - and you just want the doctor's "exemption" as a kind of "authoritive backup" (with what happened to the Sydney family in mind). But I wasn't sure, so I've mentioned it in case. Of course as we've now seen with that family, our right to choose means nothing. Doctors/judges/DOCS can BREAK the law anytime they please if they don't agree with us EXERCISING the law.:
I will be seeing our family GP in a few weeks and am going to ask him if we can get a medical exemption for the new baby. My other children have medical exemptions from any further immunisation due to adverse reactions.
I am not sure if you can actually get an exemption on the grounds of family history but we will be trying. There is also a section on the exemption form where a Dr. can suggest that the immunisations be delayed for medical reasons.So I am hoping that we can fit into either catergory.If not we will fill out the conscientious objection form and make sure everyone is aware of our choice. I am hoping that having a medical exemption will carry more weight with the other medicos, and they might leave us alone.
With exemptions based on family history... Gov. health websites state adverse reactions in one family member does not put other immediate family members at any greater risk so they should be vaccinated. (But of course they are at a greater risk!)
Possibly the (maybe only minor) trouble with using the "delay" section of the form, is "they" (whoever "they" is) may then follow up with reminders to vaccinate. So you may end up having to say a definite no at some stage anyway. Maybe just ask them both up front if they have a problem with your decision to speak up now, or forever keepeth thy head pulled in. ;)
Hey, there's a good way around it! ;) (Give them the impression you're going to do it later.) :p:
I guess we were just glad to be outta there and have put it behind us. Although nothing was said about it, we did get the impression they thought of taking authority out of our hands. We may still complain though. As others have said it may help someone else.:
But I'm shocked at how you were treated in the NICU. I'd be complaining left right & centre.
Oh no, they did ask first - well sort of. They kind of "checked" (told really - not asked) that we agreed to assistance being given should he need it. That was right at the start of going into IC. I don't recall signing anything though.:
So I'm shocked that they just gave your bub formula?? no consent or anything??
Then they said it was "necessary to give formula so his blood sugar didn't fall which causes babies to start fitting." (So what choice are you left with?) Our anger was more over the fact getting formula into his stomach was so important, but breastfeeding was discouraged - using the excuse that he was having a hard time breathing - and if put against the breast he would find breathing even more difficult. This was poor logic, because we were later told babies are nasal breathers, and oxygen-enriched air was being pumped into his lungs via the plastic tubes of a CPAP machine. (So being on the breast could not have closed his nostrils while breastfeeding.)