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For our third stim cycle we also had to do the daily ejaculations while I was on FSH. Abstaining from the night of trigger... I had a chat to the scientist, and it didn't change our semen parameters at all (DH had also been doing the folate and vitamin C thing, but menevit wasn't readily available at this stage), but I still think something there worked (and not just my insane avoid OHSS diet) as it was that cycle that gave us a sticky bub.
BW
Hi Ladies..
Just read thru this whole thread - really interesting..you all sound like little scientists..
Just wanted to report in that I also have the MTHFR gene (will leave it to your imagination as to what I really call it..).
Anyway, also a Dr S disciple as of last 2 cycles. All he recommended was the 5mg Megafol and I do Clexane needles from night of EPU thru to BT as the gene can cause some clotting issues and he wants the uterus to be smooth as silk...
WTH - hope those levels are kicking in.
Cuddlepie - White tea is immature green tea - could even be the buds. Has next to nothing caffeine and has more antioxidents than green tea. I buy an organic one from the supermarket and put in a teaspoon of organic honey. It's surprisingly yummy. But I have not had it while on FSH (just been drinking decaff normal tea) as I do not know if green/white tea is good for eggs while ttc. Also, in terms of quality sperm, my OB told DH to ejac. every second night to keep those swimmers "ticking over".
Minniemouse - I went to see Dr S about NK cells, but am not under him (am under Sydney IVF). Both my OB and FS said to just take the Megafol because my homocysteine levels are normal, despite the double MTHFR gene. But I was told I was double the normal population risk of MC (not age risk), whatever that is. I asked them about the Clexane/aspirin and they told me "no". But I would still like to have it.
Redlady - hi. Thanks for your nice supportive messages
AFM - cramping this morning. Feels like more spotting on the way. Just wanted to get through a day without spotting so I could feel like my estrogen levels were rising. Pretty bummed out. If this is cancelled, will be straight in to FS to beg for a Flare cycle as soon as my AF arrives. That way we will get another opportunity without clashing with Christmas...
Wow thanks for letting me know white tea WTH, going to Marco at lunch time to check it out...
Minnie, the imagination of pronouncing MTHFR gene is running wild and gave me lots of giggle....:lol:
Also been thinking that when FS mentioned 'hand-picked sperm' it doesn't neccessarily mean ICSI does it? They can still select more healthy sperm and do IVF rather than ICSI...(BW, I remember you mentioned somewhere that there are down side of ICSI process) Just wondering how they can filter the sperm with normal DNA then?
WTH - thats interesting because I also had the NK test and was ok. He put me on Clexane / 5mg Megafol only because of the MTHFR..
Just make sure u have the 5mg Megafol. When I first went to the chemist to get it - they just gave me normal Megafol - when I took it back was told - oh thats what most people take (although I asked for the stronger one..).
Cuddles - yes methinks you worked out how I translate MTHFR...Also - my friend just moved to SIVF and due to her hubbys dodgy sperm - they are doing PICSI - the sperm are put on a special magnetic plate and only 'the best' move forward, they they use this sperm to do ICSI - tres complicated I know..
Cuddlepie, ICSI can lead to greater fragmentation issues with embryos - but that comes back to egg structure.
For traditional ICIS, they assume the spindle (the genetic information in the egg) is located directly below the polar body (part of the egg they can see - it's where the excess genetic information gets spat out during the formation of the egg) and inject the sperm so as not to damage it.
With our first cycle, they noticed we had rather more fragmentation than expected, and suggested we go to extended ICSI, or ICSI with polscope - a special light source that allows them to see exactly where the spindle in the egg is and perform ICSI without damaging the egg's genetic information.
With cycle number two, they found under the polscope that two thirds of my spindles weren't where they were expected to be. It's not a major problem, except in the case where ICSI is necessary (for us it is), and they have told me that it's more than likely related to my issues with PCOS and hyperstimulation. However, the cycle where we avoided OHSS, I still had a lot of spindles in the wrong spot, so it's just as likely to be a freaky BW thing. It's not necessarily something most people have to go for, and it seems they'll try a cycle with regular ICSI first and look for fragmentation rather than jumping straight to extended ICSI.
I hope the explanation makes sense. I'll be 26 weeks tomorrow with a baby that came from a wonky-spindled egg fertilised by extended ICSI, so it's certainly not got in our way. :)
BW
Thanks BW my little scentist, that all make perfect sense. I now know that making babies is definitely more than just having sex....:o I am actually thinking changing my career to get a job in IVF lab after I gave birth to my first baby ....:lol:
26 weeks hun, :bluecheer::bluecheer::bluecheer:
I was thinking about similar as well - only my degree is in chemistry not biology so it kinda won't work. And I'm really not sure I could face doing another science degree!
Just one note: if you don't need to use ICSI, you won't have the problems with wonky spindles, but fragmentation can arise for other reasons. It's the great big metal needle used in ICSI that does the damage, not the sperm itself entering the egg.
BW
Minnie, I hope your friend who used high-tech this time will have a great result for this cycle!
BW, I was only joking! Me? Sicence? :rofl: No way! My degree is in art and Marketing & Media...I am having great difficulties of absorbing all these IVF & ICSI terms and they are doing my head in...:doh: But you, you are my BB FS.
Hi Minnie: Thanks for telling us about your friend using PICS, this is the first time that I've heard of someone actually using it, my FS said we should use it becasue of DP's bad SCSA results. Would be good to get some more info about your friend's situation, hopefully the high-tech ICSI will work for her.
Hi BW: Extended ICSI - this is pretty interesting, will ask my FS about this, it's really a bit overwhelming this whole proecess and options, great that you let us benefit from your experience. 26 weeks - wow - :bluecheer: :cheer:
WTH - so sorry that you are not responding as expected. Its so frustrating when our bodies don't do what they are told!! Don't give up yet, though. Slow response does not mean you still won't get enough good eggies. Hang in there girl!!
All this discussion re spermies is quite fascinating, I must say. I have ( and really still do) always believed our problems came from me but I guess I truly don't know that DH may be a factor. I am impressed at how much stuff you girls have convinced your DH's to take. I thought I was doing well with the menevit! Also in interesting that those with SCASA results are all from NSW. Must be the "in" test up there. As i think I mentioned in another post, my FS said that Monash IVF's (melbourne) head Andrologist doesn't believe in the validity of the test and hence they don't really do it. I don't know enough about what the actual test process is, but I gather that he feels the results may not truly reflect how "good" swimmers are. Apparently a new test coming up soon which should be more reliable/useful?
Guess this may offer some hope to those with bad results as your DH may still have some great spermies in there.
Sorry to be downer, but the more I googled about Sperm DNA fragmentation, the more depressed I became. I am even thinking of canceling this upcoming cycle...
Quote: "A DFI Between 16% and 29% is considered good to fair fertility potential but becomes poorer as it approaches 27%. These numbers are thresholds meaning that above 30% the outcome for most couples was failure to have a birth even though only 30+ percent of the sperm were damaged. Under 15% most couples achieved success. DNA fragmentation can be thought of as a marker for other types of damage to the sperm. It is a kin to seeing the tip of the iceberg. Apparently, in semen samples with greater then 30% DNA fragmentation, other abnormalities are occurring with the non-fragmented sperm that the SCSA doesn?t measure and that is why samples used with DFIs above this level do not usually result in births.
I was originally thought that by using PICSI we would be able to bypass the bad ones, well, now seems that we just need to bring the result of 30 down, otherwise, even I am able to get a BFP, the chance of having a live birth will be reduced. I just don't want to have another m/c. :cry:
While we are doing all these little remedies as we can, I am just thinking whether it will be rush into things to do a stim cycle before we are definitely sure we have made any difference in the DNA result. Maybe its making sense to wait until anther test done and get an all clear....I was encouraged by Tam's DH's result improved significantly after only 4 weeks' Menevit though. But on the other hand, I don't think I can bear the wait till next year.
I really don't know what to do now...
Hi Cuddlepie,
Feeling similar but trying to stay positive. For now I've decided to put my trust in Menevit and PICSI. Just wondering are you with SIVF as well?
Sara
The article below cheered me up substantially:
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
Background: Evidence has accumulated supporting the role of reactive oxygen species (ROS) in the pathogenesis of sperm dysfunction among men with infertility. Damage to sperm DNA by ROS can lead to failure of conception, miscarriage or potentially even childhood cancer. The objective of this study was to examine the effect of male antioxidant treatment on embryo quality and pregnancy outcome during in vitro fertilisation-intracytoplasmic sperm injection (IVF-ICSI) treatment.
Methods: Sixty couples with severe male factor infertility were enrolled in a prospective randomised double-blind placebo-controlled trial. Male participants were randomly assigned to take either one capsule per day of the Menevit antioxidant or an identical in appearance placebo for three months prior to their partner's IVF cycle. The primary outcome was cleavage stage embryo quality and the secondary outcomes were oocyte fertilisation rate, pregnancy rates and treatment side-effects. Approval by the local Human Research Ethics Committee was obtained prior to the commencement of this study.
Results: The antioxidant group recorded a statistically significant improvement in viable pregnancy rate (38.5% of transferred embryos resulting in a viable fetus at 13 weeks gestation) compared to the control group (16% viable pregnancy). No significant changes in oocyte fertilisation rate or embryo quality were detected between the antioxidant and the placebo groups. Side-effects on the Menevit antioxidant were rare (8%) and mild in nature.
Conclusions: The Menevit antioxidant appears to be a useful ancillary treatment that significantly improves pregnancy rates in couples undergoing IVF-ICSI treatment for severe male factor infertility
My next BT result has come in. E2 was 126 on Tues (after 4 injections). On my increased dose of Puregon, it was 490 this morning (after a further 3 injections). Considered a steady but slow increase.
My guess is I either have a small group of small follies or a couple of developing ones. I have another BT and my first ultrasound on Monday. Decision will likely be made that day as to whether to continue.
Feeling a bit flat - because the spotting has stopped and I have been feeling cramping I thought it might have been higher :wall:
Sara, yes, I am with SIVF as well. Seems we will be doing the cycle at the same time too, that is if I decide to go ahead this month (most likely so)...we will have to lean on each other and comparing notes then. One thing I did discover while googling this monring is, PICSI is compartively new in the world. It was introduced about only year and half ago and must be only early year came to Australia. I think SIVF is a few clinics be able to do this if not the only one. So don't get discouraged when there is not much response re successful stories. We could be soon (here is on a high note) :lol:
thanks for the research, good to read something positive. How long your DH been taking it to reduce from 30 to 28?
WTH, sorry to hear the result is not ideal but it is steadily rising which is a good sign. Just have to be patient and next week's u/s will give you better ideas. Try to be positive while waiting, I know its hard though, talking through own experience, feeling a bit flat too....
Hey Cuddlepie
I wish I could be patient. I am hopeless at that at the best of times :rolleyes:
The more I google, the more I search, the more I ask, the more I learn, the more I worry! I am starting to believe ignorance is bliss.
Tam's partner is walking proof multivitamins can improve swimmers. And PICSI sounds very promising...
I know what you mean about waiting until next year. If this cycle does not work out for DH & I we are going to push to squeeze a short cycle in before things wind up for Christmas. Hopefully I can be very convincing when I beg my FS to do it. But then, hopefully it won't come to that...
:hug: