Long Term TTC & Assisted Conception - Oct 2007

Wow Nellie, great result! I was really nervous about fertilisation too - I had it in my head that it was just such an amazing thing to happen that there's no way my sperm would be up to it. Dunno why, mine aren't awful, but that's what I was paranoid about. Anyway you've done a great job, especially with all those hidden follies. As a guide, I think it's something like a 1/4 or a 1/3 make it to blastocyst from initial fertilisation and this is totally normal and means that the ones that make it to day 5 are the best ones for the job. We had 12 fertilise I think (terrible, I can't remember) and 4 made it to blastie.

Carla, it's not cool to turn up and have them sitting there with no idea who you are or what your story is. Sort of suggests they think it's a waste of time as well.

And BB, I am going to dedicate a whole new post to you and your DH in a few minutes, once I knock over a few other jobs. Stand by! :)

BG! - unfortunately we just gotta do what we gotta do on this frustrating TTC journey, but am really hoping all falls into place for you, and it will be full steam ahead for you in November. Fingers crossed!

BabyB - sorry to hear your Dh's results. My DH knows how that feels, and it's not easy. I have found LOTS of love and reassurance has done the trick. I am sure they will find many good'ins in his sample on EPU day that are fine for doing the job, as they did with us.

Smithy - I wonder why one clinic insists on counselling and not the other? Odd!

Rols - just toss a coin on the day re: 1 or 2, me thinks?? Just kidding! I know it's a big decision, so am not trying to downplay it, in any way, shape or form. I think it's great that you actually have the option to make such a choice (DH and I were upset we were not lucky enough to get frosties), so best of luck deciding. I think I would lean towards two myself (given statistics), but would also be daunted by the prospect of twins, so may change my mind at last minute?? GL deciding anyway! I just think it's so great, and promising that you have a few tries ahead of you if this one doesn't work, which I REALLY hope with all my mite that it does.

Arielle

ROls...no its not......it doesnt really give you much confidence when you are about to start your treatment and at theat stage knew nothing about what we were getting ourselves into......We couldnt believe it. We wont be going back.
Doesnt look like I'll be getting the BFP I was hoping for...........although my nurse seems positive....but I know my body and I am convinced Im right.......I dont think bleeding 5 days before my BT is a good sign!

Thanks Nellie! Hoipefully I can confirm it for you all v.soon!
Wow! What an awesome result for you with your first cycle. You go girl!!! C'mon lil embies - GROW GROW GROW!!
Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
GL!!
Arielle

BG - That really sucks, we did the counselling by choice and it was ok, but we did find the info evening more beneficial doing the tour etc and seeing what goes on with our embys etc. One idea - at our clinic the psychologist also works privately as well as for the clinic. Anyone of booking a private appointment with the clinics Psych rather than going thorugh the clinic? You may get in sooner? Good Luck!

:

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Bah. Just got SA results back, and looks like we will need ICSI. I guess its best ti know now, at the start of the cycle so it can be planned for, but I still feel flat, its yet another thing to overcome. I know hubby is feeling a bit depressed about it, and I have no idea what to say or do to help. Rols, don't s'pose you can help me out with ideas on this, giving the male perspective of how you might feel?

Am trying to find the positives, more eggs ought to fertilise, right? What are ICSI success rates like, or does it not really affect things in that sense?

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OK, most of the ladies have seen my boring spiels about this before, so anyone who has feel free to ignore. Kell, the way I see it (now) is that most of us have something that's not quite 100% with our bodies. Some of us are diabetic, have irritable bowel syndrome or eczema or any number of other oddities about our bodies. In my case, and your DH's case, we have dodgy sperm. It doesn't make him less of a man, it just means that those particular cells aren't spot on - not that they're incapable of doing their job. It doesn't mean your DH is less of a bloke, or "firing blanks" or any of that other nonsense.

I'd be interested to know what his sperm problems are specifically, but in my case I have a good count (over 250 million) but 98% or so are malformed (morphology). On my first SA I also had low motility and a couple of other issues, but for some reason the 2nd and 3rd tests came back better each time - the 3rd showing the same morphology issues but everything else was normal. Bear in mind, they say anything better than 7-8% (approx) normal morphology is considered the lower end of OK for blokes, which is quite amazing. Even normally fertile men might only have 20% normal shaped sperm.

In the case of a low count (which is more common these days than it once was), it's all about quality over quantity and lots of blokes with low counts can still father kids naturally, it might just take a bit longer. Back in the dark ages (pre 1980's!) people just had to keep plugging away until they got there, and many did. I could probably do the job naturally so they tell me, but who wants to wait 5 years on principle?

For the best course of action to be ICSI, it just means that a fairly significant number have one or more defects, but more than likely there are perfectly normal ones in there too, as there were with me. So with ICSI, the fertility scientist simply hunts through the sample, finds a number of normal ones and injects them into the egg (one sperm per egg). With straight IVF, they can find enough normal ones to throw them all together and leave them to party. ICSI can also overcome issues with limited or no motility (tail defects), or sperm which cannot move effectively due to other defects, because they are placed exactly where they need to be. They say that these days with ICSI, as long as you have some sperm (and by that I mean only one or more single sperm), then you have a chance at pregnancy, genetic and other factors notwithstanding.

I can't speak for your DH, but I know I was pretty ****ed off to start with. I am healthy, very active, healthy weight, eat well and so on, and yet you see enormous chubbers at the shops sporting 6 kids. It's stupid, but that's life sometimes. With infertile couples, research suggests 40% owes to the woman, 40% to the man (or a combination of both), and 20% unexplained. They also say approximately 1 in 6 couples experience infertility in varying degrees. But with infertility no-one tends to advertise it, so that couple in their 30's who say they aren't having kids until they've travelled some more, may have actually been trying for some time. You just don't know. No-one I know (apart from those I've told) would look at me and think "yeah, he's a dead ringer for dodgy sperm".

Please ask any questions you or DH want to ask, and let me know if there's anything I haven't covered.

ETA: ICSI success rates are the same as straight IVF. So there's no less chance, theoretically, for ICSI than with IVF.

Wow what a morning on here.

Nellie - Great Egg Pick up well done :)
Arielle - everything still crossed for you and I am very posticve today sorry for Friday everyone!
Kelle - we have had about 60% with ICSI
BG - What a stuff around everything crossed for you

Sorry if I have missed some one Trigger at 9.30 tonight Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Everyone
Can anyone tell me.....................
Well it looks like that my BT will be a BFN due to the fact I have started bleeding , event hough mynurse tells me it could still be ok ( I dont believe her) What happens with a NAtural IVF Cycle...........does anyone know the cost and what happens.......Im tired of the wait....We have 3 embie forzen and we are thinkingof transferring 2 the next time....what do you think? Can anyone help me?

Hi all,

Nellie - we just did our first ICSI cycle and while we certainly didn't get the number of eggs you did, we got 8 of the 9 to fertilise and 6 went on to biopsy (we are using PGD as well). The stats are pretty good when it comes to fertilisation with ICSI but then it is up to nature on whether they will be viable or not, even with all the TLC they get in the lab! We only ended up with 2 unaffected blasties in the end and hopefully the one on board now is a keeper. I am at day 11 in my TWW, going a bit insane, but getting through it.

BG - we had to do counselling (HunterIVF) but we had already met the counsellor at other group meetings so she kind of already knew our story. We also get a call from her on the day of BT results regardless of the outcome and know she is is always available if we need to have a chat. The meeting was a bit of a waste of time but unfortunately if they won't let you start without having done it you really don't have much of a choice now do you. Kind of sucks for you though that they aren't more accessible.

Tiggerlinda - good luck with the trigger tonight. I thought it was the one that hurt the least. It does make it all quite real for you though.

Arielle - any news yet? With all your HPT results, I'm sure it will be a BFP for you.

Good luck and best wishes to everyone

Carla, it depends how heavy the bleeding is. If its bright, and typical of AF in terms of colour and quantity, I'd assume you have AF. If it is minimal or dark you certainly could be pregnant. As I understand it, spotting and light blood loss isn't uncommon in early pregnancy.

Hi Rols
Well I can tell you that it has been allof the above. Bright dark there not there.....stopped now back but its only when I go to the toilet....never just there......Anyway..maybe it wasnt meant to be. I will have to wait till Friday for BT.
As for my other question...do you have any idea?

Hey Everyone :D

BG - I'm so sorry you're getting stuffed around... How wonderful you are that you can still look on the bright side and see a day trip with DH in amongst all if it! ;)
What I find interesting in the compulsory counselling is that you have had 5 IUI's this year, yet it wasn't compulsory for them???
You would think it would be the same for both... I know IVF is a lot more detailed, but honestly - the drugs are almost the same, the reaction to the drugs are the same, the emotions throughout the cycle are the same - and either the elation or the devastation at the end of the cycle are the same.... Don't you think??!!!

You would think that after what you guys have been through with your IUI's just this year alone that they would consider you guys veterans in this damn journey by now!!!
BG, I'm so mad for you sweetie!
Just get in to see someone asap so you can make the cycle pre Christmas xxx

TL - Yay on your trigger tonight!!!
Not long to go now - less than a week and you'll be in the 2ww!!!

BB - So sorry to hear you guys do need the ICSI - But remember a lot of people around here have had great success with it - I'm sure you'll be another of many ;)

Nellie - Wow on your results!! Good for you guys - Sending you many sticky vibes for this cycle xxx

Carla - So sorry, hun - I know exactly how you feel, I have gotten AF everytime before my BT - And although the nurses stay quietly confident, I know what you mean about knowing your own body xxx
My heart goes out to you right now, and I hope that your Dh and yourself can pull together to get yourselves through xxx
So great to hear you thinking about the frosties though - Well Done for staying positive xxx

JS - Also sending you lots of sticky vibes this cycle too xxx
Very best wishes to you & your DH xxx

Arielle - How are you hanging in there sweetie???!!!
Hope you haven't pulled all of your hair out!!
You should pass the time by looking at pg tickers for your signature! ;)
Bring on 3pm!!!

A big Hi to everyone else!!

Me - Just waiting here, feeling pretty bloated and blah - On day 23 of my cycle so by the end of the week the witch will either be here or not.
Not very confident for this cycle as we haven't been on anything in regards to meds, etc - and not even any AP due to the blood movement through my body and flaring up these damn lumps.
The no AP is definately contributing to my fluid retention :(

Should have results tomorrow for all of my tests from last week, so we'll see how we go tomorrow....

Carla, it can also depend on how much is there - If its on & off and only a little when you go to the toilet, chances are it may not be AF.

Are you on Crinone??? Because its known to aggrevate things and can cause some minor irritation bleeding...
You never know, hun xxx

Thanks Holly
Yes I am on Crinone and I have had the pleasure of seeing that too when I go to the toilet...thats brown and 'there' Yesterday I had a clot (OH GOD SORRY THIS MIGHT BE TMI) and then only had blood when I wiped myself and it wasnt just spotting.....then nothing all night even when I went to the loo....then nothing this morning until about 10 and its back again but only when I go.......Im sorry if I have just given someone visuals of my experience.............
I hope youor test results put a smile on your face.....GL xx

Still no news guys!
I'm ok thanks HB, but don't have much hair left no! LOL!
You know I was always thinking that I'd like to shave my head one day (just one of those wierd & wild things I'd like to do once in my life), and after today, I reakon I'll have almost got there without the shaver.
I am so hoping I won't have to wait til 3pm. They usually call me before the time they give me, but I bet today they don't - LOL!

HB, I hope the results give some answers. GL!

Arielle

Hi Arielle
OH HUN...GL GL GL...its such a horrible wait........they will call soon.......I feel the vibe!!!! xxxxx

Carla - if you're five days pre-BT is it possible that you're still in the widow for the bleed to be a combo of crinone and implantation bleed? from what i've read, implantation can occur anywhere up to 12 days after O, so it's still a possibility

if your bleeding isn't heavy or normal for AF, i'd still hold out a little hope for the BT - there is still a chance it might be good news

thanks for all your comments re the counselling - Holly - i totally agree - apart from going through the EPU/fertilisation outside the body thing, i've done everything (and possibly more) a standard IVF cycle would involve - physically and emotionally we've done the whole thing - i was surprised we didn't have to do the counselling for the initial IUI and once we'd been through all of that, i can't see much point in going, but if that is what it takes, then we'll get through it (plus i get retail therapy when we go to Melbourne, so that's a plus!). guess it just bugs me that we have to do a 400k trip instead of 200k, and they can't even give me details of when they're likely to squeeze us in. ah well, such is life - what fun would it be if it all went smoothly for all of us all of the time??

Rols - your explanations of the male side of things is always so very helpful - DH has ok swimmers, though the quality and quantity vary from sample to sample depending on what work he's been doing in the couple of weeks before, and he's felt down about things a few times when they've been borderline dodgy - have read him a number of your posts at different times and he's appreciated hearing things from another guy, rather than just me! so thanks for taking the time to help

arielle - your BT is going to be fine hun - if you managed to get five bfp's on three brands...

Briggsy
Thankyou for your encouraging words. i just dont have a good feeling about it. It certainly helps to have other opinions though.
Its so frustrating isnt it....the waiting is horrible..but like you said..RETAIL THEROPY!! YIPEEEEEEE My DH took me retail theropy on the weekend to try and cheer me up.....it worked for ...A MINUTE!! But god bless him!
We might even be doing our next IVF cycle when you do......we can go crazy together!!!

Holly, GL for the test results tomorrow.

Carla, sorry I missed the other question. If you have frozen embryos, and this cycle hasn't worked, then you'll do a frozen cycle next time. Basically, (this is what our clinic does) they'll do a couple of blood tests and a couple of u/s, you'll take drugs orally and daily to prevent you developing your own eggs and if all goes well they'll thaw your two embies that you've requested and if they hold up OK they'll insert them in the same way as with a full cycle. No anaesthetic or anything required. Then you'll have progesterone pessaries at least until your BT. These details are from our clinic - yours may do things differently.

Cost (at our clinic) is about $2200 upfront and if you've hit the safety net you get all but $300 or so back. Drugs (not expensive) and hospital admission (only the excess if you have PHI) extra.

ETA: Re the bleeding, this is just me, but I'd assume it's AF and if it's not then awesome. DW's AF after the stim cycle was on/off and not normal.

Rols....yer I thought as much this is why i havent got my hopes up. OH NO MORE DRUGS...I have been such a syco on the last lot... Dont kow if my body can handle more!!! But we will keep on going until we get our perfect angels. Thanks Rols.
Hows thing holdingup on your end at the moment?

*************CH MENT************


Rols, DH has almost identical issues, once low motility in 05, now that has improved and morph has dropped. I don't know the figure, the FS simply said "very few normal." Between the 2 of us, we have a wide range of issues, so at least we can identify with how one another may be feeling to a degree (theoretically).

I try to focus on the positives. the issues that we DO have are treatable, they are obstacles that can be overcome. And on the up side, there is less chance (again, in theory) of no eggs fertilising (assuming we GET eggs). I really like your analogy of there being something wrong in some way with most people. This is true. And in the grand scheme of things, if there is going to be something wrong, then this is not a bad hand to draw.

We have conceived once, and odds say that we can do so again, even if all these issues have cropped up in the meantime. In some ways, its good to know this, because it may be what has given us trouble in the past 4 years (although, morphology was not mentioned as a problem during IUI at all, only motility and even then it was written off as simply being because of a less than ideal time between ejaculations).

I have passed your post onto DH, and am sure he will appreciate it as much as I do. Thanks so much for that, I sort of didn't know how DH would feel about it, but I think once the shock wears off and we accept this is where we are and how we deal with it, we'll come through okay together. Cheers.

DW wasn't happy to know there'd be more drugs. She was fine emotionally with the last lot, but is just over it really and wishes we could just do the transfer without all the other stuff.

At our end, DW had BT and U/S this morning. U/S was as expected, and I've just realised that she hasn't told me her BT results, nor have I thought to ask. Such is our level of anxiety about the whole thing this time. I don't mean that in a flippant way, but it's barely registered on our radar so far.

FS has confirmed what I thought (go me) that we should go with one embie. She said based on DW's age and the early stage of our AC journey, two is too higher a risk for twins and in her view twin pregnancies should be avoided at all costs unless they happen naturally of course. She's very anti-twins - reckons they increase the chance of complications by a factor of ten. But that's just her, not all FS' have such a fear of them I don't think.

When we started out, FS told us we'd probably only need 1-2 cycles for success. We initially took that as being 1 stim cycle, and if that didn't work then 1 frozen cycle, but as we later figured out, she did mean 1-2 full stim cycles. She reckons with our frozens, assuming they thaw, we would have about 60-70% chance of pregnancy when viewing the cycle from stim to frozen as a whole.

Oh man..its just so hard to keep up the spirits isnt it...
Its not just a major issue for our emotions and body...our wallets too......Can I ask people....how the hell do we afford all this???

Kell, I got used to it pretty quick. It sucked for a few days but you have to get on with it. It's definitely nice to know other people are in a very similar position. Myself and DW, and another member Sparkles and her DH were in a practically identical position. Fortunately, they were clever enough to fall pg naturally which is awesome.

And, I completely overlooked the fact that you already have a child (was he natural or IUI?). If I was your DH, I'd be pretty happy with myself, he's proved he can do it once, and he can do it again. It should be a breeze (hopefully) with IVF if you did it before without help.

Remember too that morphology and count can and does change over time, both short and long term. He may find in 6 months his morphology is better, who knows. But for us, the FS said that we could definitely fall pg naturally, but it just depended if we wanted to take our chances as far as length of time went.

Carla, we just stick it on the card and pay it off. Personally, we aim to have all treatments paid off before we commence a new stim cycle (if that is needed) so we don't fall into debt. Everyone has different strategies of course.

Carla we use Medi plan they are a great group

Tiger
Whats mediplan?

OK! results are in, and I am pleased to announce that I am officially 4wks 3days UP THE DUFF!!
OMG OMG OMG OMG!
A big thanks to all for your amazing support, and I look forward to seeing many of you follow in my footsteps VERY soon ok!

HCG levels 262 (so am pretty sure it's not identical twins???), and progesterone 72, so can stop the Crinone. Woohooh!

Arielle

thinking of you arielle..
CARLA.. as for us we just keep working and save the money as we dont have credit cards,but i no what you mean i does cost a lot of money and this will only be our 2nd cycle and were already wondering were the money is going to come from,its a worry isnt it,im not doing another one until dec..jan though so that should give us enough time..i hope..

yay arielle im so happy for you hun :dance::dance:

Google them they are like a credit card but for medical reasons

Well done Arielle. Like there was any doubt ;)

Rols, I think thats a lot of the problem, we know stuff all about morphology and so on. It is interesting and encouraging to note it can change over time. Our son was conceived with clomid and thats it. Talk about breezy. This time round we did that and persisted at it for long er than needed because I was determined it would work again, it had last time! Then we went onto IUI and after 2 BFN's, decided we were done in. In 6 years, only our sons pregnancy and first 5 months were infertility and AC free. We've just had a 2 year break and now feel ready to go again. Its been a loooong road, but so much of that has been wasted time and poor decisions by professionals and so on with our treatment. That you have a proactive FS who says yes you can wait... but you don't HAVE to, is brilliant. I wish we had had that, rather than one who said "you SHOULD wait... and try x y and z first.." But whats done is done.


Carla, we returned to treatment almost unplanned after a 2 year break that we thought was for good. Had we been sensible we could have saved in that time! We work like Rols, pay as much from savings and such as we can/want, the rest on credit and plan to pay it off before the next stim cycle (if needed!)


Arielle - Congratulations!! How exciting! :D

Huge congrats to Arielle!!!!!

Arielle Happy Dance :happyforyou:

arielle that is truly excellent news! Congrats!

Everyone else, here's a new thread for you chatterboxes!