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Absolutely right - you make your own decisions as a parent and often other people don't agree.:
And you make a good point Arte - I don't even think I compared pain stop with phenergan and yet I'll use one but dismiss the other. Perhaps I should revisit my usage!
I remember reading an article on the wall of the paed chiro where we took our kids. I said that there had been a few deaths in the states, usually kids under 2 who had taken it. They recommended not to give it to children under 2. My brother and his family have just been to the states, visiting her family. He's returned earlier and my SIL has to fly home with an 18 month old and 4.5 year old on her own. Apparently, the 18 month old didn't sleep the entire way there and she was asking my brother to send over some, as it's now banned in the states (not sure how they thought they'd get it through the post, given it's a banned drug there now?).
So my brother went to the chemist, who said no way for an 18 month old.
I remember when our 2 yr old broke his wrist last year and the dr said to give him Painstop, but the day strength one, not the night one which has phenergan in it.
I'm just amazed that it's banned in the states and still available here (?) I wouldn't be giving it willy nilly to my children just for convenience.
And let's not forget the OP was talking about using it as "convenience", which I see as something different to breaking a sleep pattern.
Yes seriously!:
I gave it to DS1 once (for allergies) and it had the opposite effect - that boy was hyper for hours. It was the first and last time I'll ever touch the stuff. I heard from a friend that she couldn't give it to her boys for the same reason.
In the deepest darkest place of my sleep deprived mind I thought about it for my DS1. He was a shocker, not sleeping more than 1-1.5 hours at a time for months leading up to his first birthday. He would wake screaming. I often tried to work out ways to get it, from ordering it on the internet to fibbing to my doctor about allergies. I googled threads on chat forums where people said they gave it to help sleep and it worked great.
But in the end I didn't give it to him. I don't really remember why, sleep deprivation I'm guessing. I have a fair bit of family support including grandparents that were happy to have my non-sleeping child for 'sleepovers' so I could get a rest.
I guess like Artechim I don't see this as the same as giving it to a child so they can watch the footy. It's to help break an unhealthy sleep pattern.
I do not believe in giving medication to children other then for medical purposes. Full stop.
It does horrify me that people think it is ok to drug their child to sleep for non medical reasons.
If that makes me a horrible judgemental person, I can live with that.
I think it depends on how you define medical reason.
I give my DD (10yrs) a 10mg tablet the night before her horseriding lesson because horseriding/horses are her reason for living at the moment yet she is allergic to something there. She also has to take claratyne, etc the morning of the lesson.
The only other time I gave it to her was when she was three for four or five nights when she was suffering some PTSD after witnessing some very distressing things and could not sleep. I dont regret it at all and would do the same again. It was just what she needed to relearn that surrendering to sleep was okay and that she was safe.
I totally agree that children should not be drugged for convenience. But I also wonder if medicines like phenergan/pain stop have actually saved the lives of some children whose parents had reached the end of their tether :dunno:
We had to use pain stop with ds as he can't have nurofen and when he got all 4 molars at once he was hysterical and in a lot of pain and panadol didn't work. He was 14 months but it was under the guidance of our gp. I don't like using it and it does make him hyper but it stops his pain. I would never use it to just go and party or knock my kids out as per the original post.
I have never considered to give phenergan to my DD, which is more b/c I have heard it is a 'bad' drug. I never knew it was given to people for severe allergies - just goes to show how uneducated I am on the drug and that the 'scare' tactics was what I have based my decision not consider using the drug. (not that I have needed to consider it). For me personally, I would not use it as a sedative unless absolutely necessary (ie: DD going to hospital for a proceedure and she is freaking out about it) and I would only administer it under medical supervision. If it is to adjust a sleep pattern I personally would try other avenues first.
I remember my boss did use it on his two kids when they were about 3 & 5 (I think) yo when flying over to the states to help them sleep & it made them hyper, not sedate them.
The first situation you describe is definitely a medical situation. It is an allergy, and it is an allergy medication.:
The second situation is a bit more of a grey area, but I still believe it falls under the category of medical situation and I would trust that as her parent you were medicating for her mental health.
Definitely for her mental health Misty.
I cant remember the last time I went out partying!!! It was years before DD was born!
Sorry, I wasnt clear but the first line of my post was sort of separate to the rest. It was commenting on some of the previous posts. I'm on my ipad and sometimes take shortcuts with my writing while on here!
I have used it for allergies and I have used it for sanity...having 2 non sleepers and working fulltime, I need a sleep myself :hide: convenience no, sanity yes.
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I have been thinking this too while reading some responses. After the slippery slope I found myself on when sleep deprived for an extended period (much like you described Artechim and Fabfiona) I was in a really bad way and got pretty scared at the way I was responding to my children and the things I was doing to survive that I would never have considered acceptable parenting in a more sane time. Suffice to say, I can see how easily things can get dangerous when looking after small children without adequate sleep or support. Thankfully, I did manage to get help before things got completely out of control, but things could have.:
I never thought of using a drug to help the kids sleep patterns, mostly because I was too delirious to come up with any solutions. In hindsight, something like phenergan might have been big help a lot earlier and may have saved my family from a lot of crappy stuff around those dark days. :dunno: I don't think I could judge another person in their choices even if I don't agree in principle.
I do NOT think that is a validarguement for its use. Otherwise it is also an arguement for some forms of classic abuse or neglect - such as locking up or restraining children, for short and extended periods of time.:
That may be the case but these things should be assessed/judged on a case by case basis. Nothing is black and white.:
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I dont know whether it's a valid argument for its use either?? But I suspect it has saved some children from serious harm or even death....:
I would rather a child be drugged than seriously hurt.
And not even just intentional hurting of children. What about thing like car accidents and fires that could happen when a parent is chronically sleep deprived.
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Throughout the thread it seems people classify sleep as a "convenience". Come on guys... don't you remember those looooong nights of broken sleep that went on month after month after month? And you still have to function, SAFELY, during the day? Drive a car, make decision, care for a child?!?! Sleep, when it is broken to that extreme (and a lot of us have been there) is NOT a convenience. It is a necessity. If you have reached the end of your rope and you did what you had to do in order to get a few precious seconds, then well done for being a great mum. If you weren't at the end of your rope and you did it because you were too lazy to put the hard work in, that's a different story, but I doubt any of the mums here are in that category. Sometimes operating on no sleep is more dangerous than the risks we take to have sleep.
My mum admitted she gave something like this to me when I was little, because I was a nocturnal baby lol. I know its not what the OP posted but I thought it was funny at the time - they used to do it way back then too ;) I couldn't bring myself to do it for sanity let alone convenience and actually didn't even think of it - and I had a VERY clingy, minimalist sleeping babe who would do her sleep cycle during the day and that was it, very unsettled. A pretty absent father and on my own for pretty much most of it, ended up in a M&B unit for two weeks, lost lots of weight because I barely ate. But never once gave her anything to 'make' her sleep. I considered it with my second when he had a horrible time overnight with teething, he'd cry and arch his back for hours on end, but he never took ANY medicine - was the best zip lock baby you've seen lol.
i find it uncomfortbale just thinking about giving a child medicine to make them sleep so that you can sleep. it just doesnt sit right with me.
also, if we are saying that it is ok to do this if you are otherwise a great mother who has done everything well and proper and is at the end of her rope due to lack of sleep then isnt it doesnt really make sense seeing as though you cant give phenergan to a child under 2 and usually by the time they are 2 they usually sleep alot more than they did as newborns or within the first year.
i dont know, i dont mean to be judgemental.. i am really not a judgemental person generally but there is something in this that makes me uncomfortable. sorry.
I don't think that makes you judgmental. I feel uncomfortable with the idea too. We all have to make our own decisions and choices as parents, and we're responsible for those, thats what we should focus on. But personally for me, I would feel like I am doing the wrong thing by my baby. And thats not saying others are, because its just how I feel, the belief I have for myself. I've also heard parents talk about how they leave their babies to sleep in their beds while they pick up their children from kinder. They are fine with that. I am not. But they are good people and I would never make judgmental comments to them.
Of course we remember what it's like! I have four kids and a husband that travels away.:
I make a decision some days to NOT drive as I deem that unsafe. I make the decision to NOT drug my kids because that's unsafe!!
It's prioritising.
See my point?
I don't think this is true - some children certainly sleep more at 2 than as babies, but I wouldn't think it's the majority.:
Everyone makes the best decision for them and their family, and what is seen as a "convenience" by some may be seen as more important than that by others. I don't think it's fair to judge people whom we know nothing about. Sometimes children need something to calm or sedate them and I think it's good that there are medicines available for this (with instructions for safe doses).
Personally I only use medication as a last resort for anything. I offered phenergan to DD when we flew to the US but she wouldn't have a bar of it, so I didn't force the issue. She's never had it, but I still have the bottle in case we ever need it for anything.
whilst I don't like the idea of giving a child a medicine for no reason other than to sedate them, I think that using a sedative medicine should not be discounted as lazy parenting all the time. For example a child anxious of flying, phenergan might make all the difference in allowing them to cope on the flight. Or for my eldest son who recently broke his arm. When it came to choosing a pain reliever in the middle of the night I always went straight to the codeine which has a sedative effect as well as a pain relief effect, rather than ibuprofen or panadol which would merely reduce the pain. Medicines aren't always used for the sole reason they were invented. Sedatives are frequently used for anxiety, asthma drugs to calm an irritible uterus, and yes, phenergan is used sometimes for it's sedative effect when it is not needed for any other reason. If a child hasn't slept in days due to illness or teething and has gotten themselves into an cycle of being too tired to sleep it's not that much of a leap to say that phenergan might be the thing that helps break that cycle.
Giving it because you are going to the movies, however, is ridiculous no matter how a parent justifies it to themselves.
Really?? No-one told my children that.....:
and but I think it is how the medication is used that makes it unsafe not the actual use of it.
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Phenergan doesnt work on my kids, none of the 'may cause drowsiness' meds do so to use it for sleep purposes would be pointless for us. But I do know people who do it.
As for using it to break a no-sleep cycle. In theory I guess its a valid point. In real life I dont neccesarily think it is; if you are sleep deprived to the point of considering medicating your child to sleep, you may not be in any state to control the use of said medication or to remember if/when you administered it. To yourself or anyone else. If it even works on your kids.
And thats a personal opinion coming from a mother of 3 under 2.5 who has only just now, 6 years after having my first baby, experienced what a night of 3 or more hours of sleep is. It never entered my mind to medicate them to sleep, if it had Im not sure if I wouldnt have atleast seriously considered it, but in the end Im confident I wouldnt have done it as I dont even like to give them pain relief unless its absolutely neccesary (especially nurofen). I was probably one of the most sleep deprived people on the planet in the last 6 years, looking back I wonder how I even managed to care for 3 kids (alone majority of the time) and function enough to drive, cook etc. Its a miracle I didnt kill any or all of us. The difference between the 'me' then and the 'me' now that Im getting on average 6 or more hours of straight sleep a night is absolutely amazing! But thats a whole other thread topic I think.
They use it so they can go out and get drunk????? wow.... :o :o do they not have a conscious???? Why bother having kids.....
We used it for our 22mth old (at the time) on a long plane trip overseas but it just made her really sick and vomited :( which made me feel terrible (DH's idea) and even though she slept most of the way (it was night time) we will never use it again.
Definitely! Some people's scale of priority (based I guess on the severity of what they are going through) means using the drug has greater priority than the consequence and I absolutely cannot judge them for the (nor would I judge you for choosing differently).:
Yes exactly:
Lol this is funny. Ds1 had it once as a sedative and it did the opposite, he was far from calm and quiet.
Occasional here we get a begger with a sleeping child in their arms. I lost it a 1 once, yelled at her. Was stupid and pointless but those kids are mediated to sleep for days and probably stolen in the 1st place. Breaks my heart
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I have had so many people tell me to use pernergen on my kids. After 18 years of being a parent, I only found out earlier this year what it is and what it does.
I would never consider it to help my kids sleep but the thought of using it has crossed my mind for a dental procedure one of my kids will be having soon. I will obviously ask my GP for alternatives though.
From my iPhone.
My Mum used to give us 'pink' - I don't even know what was in it, it came in a glass bottle from the chemist. We'd even ask for it sometimes, before bed, and she never said no, LOL!
Keike - Was it Panquil?
I remember mums using that when DS1 was a bub. It got taken off as an over the counter medicine due to parents using it to sedate their kids. From memory, Panquil was pink and it was like panadol but with a sedative to help bubs sleep.
From my iPhone.
Was it phenergen that will smith had to take in "hitch"?
The one he went drunk like on?
I really don't like when it's abused, I think it horrible. My ex bil used to give it to my nephew when my sister was working so that he would nap.
I think that that it is ok in certain circumstances to use it as a sedative though. I've used it on dd for bites in the past but it doesn't make her drowsy, just really irritable. That is the only reason we haven't used it for her sleep issues. I'm not talking your everyday baby sleep problem either, this is a three year old who sleeps less than five hours a whole night sometimes, who wakes multiple times and doesn't just go back to sleep with a cuddle. Our whole family often suffers because of this, her most of all as some days she's so tired that she doesn't even want to play. If it worked on her I'd use it in a heartbeat. And not just because I'd like some sleep, it's not as simple as that. And I hardly doubt it is for other parents who find themselves going down the sedative path.
If I could use it, it would be for the benefit of my dd .
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I can honestly say, in a completely non-loaded and non-judgemental way, that even in the absolute depths of my sleep deprivation (we're talking no DH, no IRL support, DD feeding every hour around the clock, waking every hour and not napping during the day, for months on end) it never crossed my mind to give her drugs to sleep. FF her, yes (although I'm glad I never did). Yell at her, yes. Smack her, yes :( I thought about all of those things with varying degrees of fleetingness, but no, it never even crossed my mind to try medication.
I totally understand why a sleep deprived mum may give her child s nights dose so that they may all have a good sleep. We do what we need to for our children.
my mother had friends who would tie their baby to the bed and go out for the night. there will always be selfish immature people as parents and some awesome people and most of us work it out as we go.
no medicine is meant to be given lightly and i haven't met any on here that would just give their children Phen so they can drink and that makes me happy and proud
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Ignore my previous post...it was benedryl.
I agree PZ. Although I must admit my head messes with me now from lack of sleep. Never gotten to the point of sedating her yet. Sedating ME on the other hand.... :)
I couldnt do it for 'convinance'
I have no doubt down the track I will need,to use drugs to settle djs sleep. His pead has,said it too due to djs issues we may have no choice for the sake of our family.
I find it abhorant people would use it cus they want to get drunk or alike
I've used it & still use it when needed. I first bought phenergan just under a year ago for DS's severe car sickness. I've had it on hand ever since.
I've used it for allergic reactions. DD1 is allergic to bees & nothing else works nearly as good. DD3 had her hand puff up out of the blue a few months ago & I gave her a small dose to calm it til I could see a doctor (an hour away).
I used it 3 days ago for DD1. She was up all night coughing & her ears are so blocked (glue ear) that she can't hear a thing. I gave her one pill. Don't know if it was that, or sheer exhaustion, but she crashed out for 3 hours. I won't feel bad, because she needed that sleep!
I've had nights with DS where I've considered it for sedation. Nights where he is awake til 1am & I have 3 other kids to get up to alone & I'm not getting sleep, which, in turn, is putting all our lives at risk if I need to drive anywhere. I have had those nights alot. I've maybe gone through with it 2 or 3 times. Believe me, I'd laid in bed for hours on end, weeks on end, trying to get him to sleep earlier, but I would aways fall asleep first & wake to him out in other parts of the house... which scares me.
I honestly don't think I know anyone else who has it in their cupboard, & I am glad for that. Because not many people do know the risks that go with using it. I'm glad I do & when I use it (over claratyne/panadol) I do it knowing exactly what I'm doing.
FWIW the amount on the bottle is much less for motion sickness/nausea than it is for sedation. I think for DS it was 5ml for motion sickness, 8 or so mls for sedation. I've always given him less than the recommended amount & had it work the way it should.
PZ, add 3 other children to your situation, then consider how you'd get by. Great if you could survive getting to the nearest shops (70kms away) on no sleep, but some risks just aren't worth it. I'd risk a dose of phenergan under my supervision over me falling asleep at 110kph.