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Thread: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

  1. #109

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
    Oh and btw, I'm still waiting for answer to my wii question. People keep dismissing it because they simply cannot answer it.
    Who is everybody? People have answered. You mean JF because she is the only one that said she is an unschooler? She's most probably busy being awesome with her kids.

  2. #110

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Heaven View Post
    Who is everybody? People have answered. You mean JF because she is the only one that said she is an unschooler? She's most probably busy being awesome with her kids.
    No one has answered it properly. My kids are out at their school friend's house riding their dirt bikes. Something your kids will never have, ie. school friends.

  3. #111

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
    No one has answered it properly. My kids are out at their school friend's house riding their dirt bikes. Something your kids will never have, ie. school friends.
    Umm.. ok. That's obviously not an issue for us. But you go ahead and worry about your own kids. Mine are great. Thanks for such a mature and educated discussion :/

  4. #112

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    They won't be great in a few years time. Maybe we should meet back in this thread in 5 years time and see if you're so smug then?

  5. #113

    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by nothing2lose View Post
    I'm going to be upfront and say what I think you already know I'm not a fan on homeschooling or unschooling at all. However, what you do with regards to your children's education is your business. I respect your choices, even if I don't agree with them.

    I do have a couple of genuine questions though. I'm not wanting a debate. I'm just honestly curious. So here goes...

    One of the issues I have is that in many homeschool environments I see (particularly those which are religion based) children are 'kept from' those who are different. Even when it's not a conscious choice on the parents' part, they naturally spend the vast majority of their time with people who have the same attitudes/backgrounds as them (ie. their friends and family). Socialisation involves mixing with people who are your polar opposite, people you don't like and who don't like you, people who will antagonize you and make your life difficult and learning how to thrive in that environment. School, like life, is a huge melting pot of personalities, beliefs, values, backgrounds, attitudes, behaviours, ect. When you go there, you learn how to negotiate, and thrive in that every day. When I hear homeschoolers say, "little Joey isn't missing out on socialisation because we play with friends, or go to a homeschool co-op, etc every week", my immediate thought is that little Joey is missing out by not co-existing with people who don't like him, or who don't share his attitudes on life. Joey is being brought up in a protective social bubble. A controlled environment masquerading as educational freedom. How do you allow for this?

    My second question is, what would you do if your child/ren turned around and blamed your educational choices for them for them not being able to pursue a career path they wanted to pursue?? I realise this can happen to any parent, whether they homeschool or not, but some of the homeschooling parents I have come across (albeit mostly in the media) are as dumb as lumps and couldn't teach a dog to sit (NOT REFERRING TO YOU JF ) I imagine their children are going to be woefully unprepared for formal tertiary study.
    This is interesting as just this week I had a similar discussion with a colleague. We have a volunteer student, she is 18, she is an only child of a single parent and she was home schooled for her entire school life. For her course, she does face to face lessons once a week in a class room environment, this is the first time she has participated in a class environment ever. Being exposed to this for the first time in 18 years she is now facing the very thing N2L mentions, people that may not necessarily like her. People that are mean to her and mean to others. People that easily lead her astray with a situation that occurred in the class last week because she had no idea when it came to appropriate social skills. She was horrified when the trainer spoke to her and vowed to never behave in such a way again.
    These situations we all face at some time in our lives, usually well before we have turned 18 and finished school though. I find her very cooperative and teachable, but firm and clear instruction and direction is needed, that could be her homeschooling or it could just be her age. The lack of social interaction with many people is obvious though.

  6. #114

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Heaven View Post
    I don't think you're talking about unschooling Trillian. Even if they called it that. Sounds like laziness to me. Unschooling doesn't mean uninvolved at all. You need to be constantly involved and attentive and one step ahead. I get your point, homeschooling isn't for everyone, that doesn't mean it can't work really well. The same as school, can be good or bad.

    Ugh sorry, trying to type and feed a baby, not working, lol.
    That's in it's ideal form but there is always a risk/potential for a parent to get lazy in this education format isn't there? A teacher in a school gets lazy and unmotivated they go and do professional development courses to make them motivated and ultimately be a better teacher or they just don't get their contract renewed. Unless a parent is particularly motivated to do it right and actually follow the principals of unschooling, then what's preventing them from completely screwing it up? How are they held accountable to make sure that they actually ARE supporting their kids in their learning? So by your statement you are saying that it's impossible for an unschooling parent to become lazy and not do it properly? Because that's what it sounds like. What about homeschooling parents. You wake up feeling a bit under the weather/sick and don't want to get out of bed so do you continue with your program for the day or do you just take it easy and do no formal learning because you don't feel well? At least at school you can get a casual to cover your class for the day. How does the unschooling philosophy deal with lazy parenting if it happens? Technically they are still unschooling because they are letting their kids follow their instincts, but what happens when the parents don't support them properly? What happens to the kids?

  7. #115

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    Default 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    A shame to see this thread starting go off the rails.
    I'm not an unschooler.
    Or a homeschooler.
    But I'm interested in what other people do with their children, thanks girls for the insight to what you do and being generous with your time sharing knowing that thread had the potential to go the way it's going.

  8. #116

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
    That's in it's ideal form but there is always a risk/potential for a parent to get lazy in this education format isn't there? A teacher in a school gets lazy and unmotivated they go and do professional development courses to make them motivated and ultimately be a better teacher or they just don't get their contract renewed. Unless a parent is particularly motivated to do it right and actually follow the principals of unschooling, then what's preventing them from completely screwing it up? How are they held accountable to make sure that they actually ARE supporting their kids in their learning? So by your statement you are saying that it's impossible for an unschooling parent to become lazy and not do it properly? Because that's what it sounds like. What about homeschooling parents. You wake up feeling a bit under the weather/sick and don't want to get out of bed so do you continue with your program for the day or do you just take it easy and do no formal learning because you don't feel well? At least at school you can get a casual to cover your class for the day. How does the unschooling philosophy deal with lazy parenting if it happens? Technically they are still unschooling because they are letting their kids follow their instincts, but what happens when the parents don't support them properly? What happens to the kids?

    You mean if they lose interest and are not as involved for an extended period and still call it unschooling? A sick day here and there, resting when needed, I think that's just life. But losing interest and just leaving your kids to it and not being involved... I'm sure that happens to some people. I was just saying that if that's what people were doing (like the example of the family you gave) then I wouldn't be calling it unschooling. That's not what it is about. That's not something I find acceptable.

    I have no idea what other people do so I couldn't answer that but only from what I would do. If I found myself feeling like that then I would reevaluate my situation. I only want the best for my kids. If I don't want to help them get an education, if I'm not motivated or interested, then I'm not the best person for the job. It's definitely not for everyone. As for being accountable, you still need to register in your state. You have to write a plan at the start of every year and send a report at the end.


    (I homeschool but I wouldn't call myself an unschooler I don't think. Although I agree with a lot of the ideas, I haven't read enough about it to call myself that. I am no expert! So this is all just my opinion.)

  9. #117

    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    I have been away from the BB but I checked in and feel the need to quickly respond. I will answer your question Ginger, I'm sorry to keep you waiting and I hope it has not consumed your Saturday but I won't be able to give it the attention I would like to until later this evening when my children are asleep. I also have some comments regarding other things written since I was last here.

    What I do want to say is that I appreciate people asking questions and raising concerns. I want to think about these things, I want to be aware of them. What I don't appreciate is people sitting around waiting for me to fail, waiting for it to all fall apart and essentially wishing ill upon my children and family as collateral damage. That isn't nice, that isn't constructive, that isn't necessary. Don't waste your time and energy on that negativity. I feel I have taken the time and energy to speak my experiences and address people with their questions and concerns as best I can; keep in mind I never had to do that. I don't claim to be a guru or expert, I don't claim unschooling is infallible, I don't claim unschooling is for everyone. I'm not here to convert the world, I'm just here to let people know this is a valid, legal option and explain how it looks within my family. I also offered books, groups, websites and blogs where people could find more information from a variety of sources; I would never want to be the single voice one based their judgement or decision upon.

    Please enjoy the last small hours of Saturday as I intend to do, remember this will all still be here later.

  10. #118

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    I would like to know about how unschooling benefits kids who have learning disorders or ASD? These kids aren't going to be motivated or self-directed learners. How do you let a non-verbal non-mobile child with cerebral palsy direct their own learning? If you still choose to unschool a child like that, doesn't it become about your own needs and not your child's? You can't unschool kids like that properly because their needs are so great. What about the child with ASD who fixates on a single topic? How is it healthy for that child to follow his own learning path when it excludes everything else? I'm really interested to hear how those of you who unschool would allow for a special needs child.

    I also found this information on the unschoolaustralia website:
    The most important difference between the classroom your children left behind and your wonderful home learning environment is schools don't, and never will, love your children. They can care for them, look after them and teach them, but the essential successful ingredient in home education is love.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again - " Love brings success to every learning situation."
    Honestly this is the most trite piece of bull**** I have ever read. "Love brings success to every learning situation". Lets ponder that for a moment. So my sister and her drug addict boyfriend would be ideal unschoolers because they love their daughter? (who also happens to be the non-verbal non-mobile child with cerebral palsy I mentioned above).

    Are the anti-gov conspiracy theorists ideal unschoolers because they love their kids? What about the racist/homophobic/neonazi types? They must love their kids, so are they ideal unschoolers? Because apparently all you need is love. It's the essential ingredient. That website does absolutely nothing to make people respect unschooling. Hey, you could even assume that you don't love your kids ENOUGH if you send them to a regular school. I am all for alternative forms of education and families choosing the best one for their kids, but that stuff is just crazy. Love isn't always enough.

  11. #119

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    And I should say that my last paragraph isnt' about anyone at all, just the unschooling movement in general based on what I read on that website. It's akin to telling people on welfare that they should have 10 kids because all you need is love.

    I would also like to acknowledge that as a result of this thread I have spent much of the afternoon trawling my Uni databases for scholarly, peer reviewed articles on the subject. While the general consensus is that it does no real harm, they also acknowledge that they can't prove that it has any benefits that would place it higher than standard education either.

  12. #120

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
    I would also like to acknowledge that as a result of this thread I have spent much of the afternoon trawling my Uni databases for scholarly, peer reviewed articles on the subject. While the general consensus is that it does no real harm, they also acknowledge that they can't prove that it has any benefits that would place it higher than standard education either.
    Homeschooling or specifically unschooling?

  13. #121

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    I'm not wishing ill on your children jf. I'm really not. I'm worried for them, but I don't want any harm to come to them.

  14. #122

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Heaven View Post
    Homeschooling or specifically unschooling?
    Unschooling and some of it was comparisons between mainstream, homeschool and unschool. There is surprisingly little peer reviewed information around. I thought there would have been more. Most of it is from bloggers and webpages for unschooling which is hardly scientific


    And in reply to your other post (that was in reply to my post) is that the problem comes down to whether or not parents would be accepting of the fact that they weren't doing their job *properly* if they were getting a bit lazy because how would they know they were getting lazy in the first place? It's a bit arbitrary I suppose in that because unschooling is a complete lifestyle choice, if you had to make the decision to send them to school because you weren't cutting the mustard so to speak, it would essentially be an admission that you chose the wrong *lifestyle*, therefore some families would continue to do what they were doing, whether it was the best thing or not. which again comes back to not doing it for the right reasons in the first place too. But or all intents and purposes they would still call it unschooling because technically that's what it still is, it's just not being done right.


    I've also been wondering too, what happens if the family unit breaks down and the parents separate? If this happens in mainstream education, at least the kids can keep going to school, but what happens in an unschooling, or even a homeschooling environment when that happens? especially if one parent stayed home and the other one worked? Would it still be a feasible option if you had to survive to do it on parenting payment? How does the parent with the kids get adequate support to run a household and continue to home/unschool the kids? What if one parent worked that was not the primary carer? Would they still support the choice to unschool if they had to take time off work to do it during visitation with the kids? How is it fair to the kids that they can't go on trips etc to follow their interests (and for some families this even means overseas trips) anymore when the family is separated? Would the other partner still be supportive of the educational choices made for the kids once their is animosity? Men who were seemingly supportive of home/unschool may not be once the relationship ends. There are so many questions from a feasibility point of view that would surely raise a lot of ethical/social conscience questions as well, like is it even fair on society to pay welfare to two parents if they both decided that once they separated they would go on benefits to keep unschooling their kids?

  15. #123

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Quote Originally Posted by Heaven View Post
    And yet when asked what research you have that supports your beliefs you couldn't answer. And you also said you know no unschooling families. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but when it is an uninformed one I'm not interested. And when it also comes with insults, people generally aren't too motivated to continue answering ridiculous questions.
    When was I asked about research to support my decisions, anyway? What research do you have? Apart from crunchy mumma bloggers, that is. Anyway, I doubt anyone has actually ever done any peer reviewed research on how much unschooling ****s kids up.

  16. #124

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Thanks. I hadn't looked into specifically unschooling research (only homeschooling in general). I suppose it's hard to do a study though, every family is so different.

  17. #125

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    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    That was pretty much what they were saying. You can't give standardised tests to these kids to prove effectiveness across mainstream and unschooling because it just wouldn't work and it just wasn't something that was researched very well. Makes me wonder though if it's something that can't be done because the unschoolers don't want to be proven wrong? Because what would anyone do if they did find out that it actually caused damage (I'm hypothesising here in a big way) and that they had screwed their kids up? No one wants to be told that, so it's probably best to avoid the risk of that ever happening by just not being studied in the first place? Dunno. It does make it hard for the unschooling movement to be authorative on how good it is when there is only anecdotal evidence that it works and it good for kids in the absence of any real studies though.

  18. #126

    Default Re: 60 minutes story on Sunday- unschooling

    Moderator Message ?
    Okay ladies. Enough is enough





    Thankyou to those that made informed posts throughout this thread.

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