sheyne rowley

Hi Heaven,

I completely agree that the need for company is a genuine emotional need. That's why I think it's important to help guide your child toward feeling safe, happy and comfortable in their own space (when it's time for the transition, obviously). As long as they feel comfortable and safe, they won't feel that need for company through the night.

I'm not applying my ideas to anyone else here- just saying that this is what we experienced with Sophie. Before, when we tried to put her in her cot, she didn't understand why she had to be there when previously she'd been able to go to sleep snuggled up to mum. She woke up multiple times through the night needing company because that was the only way she knew how to go to sleep.

Our whole strategy (which took parts not only from the Dream Baby Guide but also from the No-Cry Sleep Solution and Dr. Sears) was to get her playing happily in her cot during the day and in the evening in the hope that she would start to see it as a safe and happy place. We respond to her as soon as she cried at night in the aim of helping her see that we're still right there when she needs us, even if she can't see us. And we still sit with her and rub her back every sleep time until she drifts off, because we feel it's a nice way to help her fall asleep feeling loved. We don't have any tears at all- she actually asks to be put in her cot now, and when we tell her it's time for bed she literally runs to her room and throws herself on the couch for her story-time. I never imagined she could love bedtime, but she does. And she now no longer wakes up through the night at all because she has indeed learned that she doesn't need company- not because we've deprived her of that company, but because we've given her alternative positive options.

Claire

Prama,

The book describes the types of cries in great detail that actually makes sense- for example, "call out" crying is where they shout out, stop, shout out, stop- it's probably the main one I hear my DD do if she wakes up early in the night. The pause is where she's listening to see if anyone is coming.

The thing is, I tend to go in to her no matter what type of cry she's doing. I guess I'm still teaching her to rely on me in a way, but I personally don't believe in letting her work through it like that all on her own. If she can work through it with me to help her, then apply it herself next time, I think that's better. That's what's been happening for us so far. Occasionally she'll wake at about four am, do the calling out cry for three or four minutes, then go straight back to sleep. She's not even remotely distressed when she's doing it- you can hear how sleepy she is, and she's just checking to see if anyone might be around to help her go back to sleep. But she doesn't need help anymore.

Lordy, I'm becoming a one-woman posting machine <g>.

I just wanted to say, Ali- don't panic about going over your due date. I was always told that more than 50% of babies are born after their due date, so it's not uncommon. What happened to us *is* uncommon, though. If I could go back in time, there are two things I would want to know about:

1. Hiccups. Sophie had long bouts of hiccups, all the time. Hiccups are completely normal for babies in pregnancy, but extended bouts (more than 20 minutes) more than 5 times a day can be an indicator of fetal distress.

2. Fetal movement/ kick counts. My doctor told me not to worry about doing fetal kick counts because DD was so active. But if I had been doing them, I would have known much earlier that there was a problem. We estimate she had stopped moving about 12 hours before she was born- things would have been much different if I'd caught it earlier. It would be really easy to get paranoid about keeping track, so really- I think your best bet is just to go with your mother's intuition. I know mine saved my daughter's life.

Besides, you could go any day now! Best of luck with the birth- I hope it all goes great :)

Claire

:

---

Hi Heaven,

I completely agree that the need for company is a genuine emotional need. That's why I think it's important to help guide your child toward feeling safe, happy and comfortable in their own space (when it's time for the transition, obviously). As long as they feel comfortable and safe, they won't feel that need for company through the night.

I'm not applying my ideas to anyone else here- just saying that this is what we experienced with Sophie. Before, when we tried to put her in her cot, she didn't understand why she had to be there when previously she'd been able to go to sleep snuggled up to mum. She woke up multiple times through the night needing company because that was the only way she knew how to go to sleep.

Our whole strategy (which took parts not only from the Dream Baby Guide but also from the No-Cry Sleep Solution and Dr. Sears) was to get her playing happily in her cot during the day and in the evening in the hope that she would start to see it as a safe and happy place. We respond to her as soon as she cried at night in the aim of helping her see that we're still right there when she needs us, even if she can't see us. And we still sit with her and rub her back every sleep time until she drifts off, because we feel it's a nice way to help her fall asleep feeling loved. We don't have any tears at all- she actually asks to be put in her cot now, and when we tell her it's time for bed she literally runs to her room and throws herself on the couch for her story-time. I never imagined she could love bedtime, but she does. And she now no longer wakes up through the night at all because she has indeed learned that she doesn't need company- not because we've deprived her of that company, but because we've given her alternative positive options.

Claire

---

Thanks Claire, that explains it! It sounded like attend to only distressed cries and ignore everything else which I don't agree with myself. I'm glad you've had success in a way you feel comfortable with.

:

---

Lordy, I'm becoming a one-woman posting machine

---

At least you're getting your post count up! :Lol:

Thanks for the advice and supportive words Claire. My OB will allow the preg to proceed beyond 42 weeks if that's what I want. I already know that induction and the cascade of intervention is NOT what I want - however I thought I should make myself more aware of what can go wrong esp after 42 weeks. I am so delighted that Sophie's doing so amazingly well and I loved reading about your little friend Grace as well. Thanks for your blog.

xo

I've been thinking about this overnight. We finally had a bad night last night- it was 30 degrees C in Sophie's room plus she has molars breaking through the gum, so I guess it's understandable! As a result I spent a couple of hours sitting in Sophie's room trying to settle her down, before I gave up and brought her out to sleep in my room under the air conditioner.

Anyway, I thought it was worth clarifying that the Dream Baby Guide DOES recommend (after you work through a good couple of weeks of communication, role play and teaching your child to trust their bed) that you leave them alone in their cot and manage their crying. The aim is that they'll understand just what you're asking them to do, and that the crying will be short-lived and cranky only as a result, but still- it DOES ask you to leave them to cry in one form.

I just felt like I should clarify this lest anyone think I'm misrepresenting what it says in the book. I'm not, but at the same time I've chosen to take what works for me, and substitute what doesn't with my own approach- I'm still not comfortable leaving Sophie to cry, so I don't. I sit next to her and pat her back until she goes to sleep, though I do all the other steps, and they all work.

I still need to implement some of the other parts of the DBG, and after I do that I'm planning on taking a No-Cry/ Dr. Sears approach to gradually removing myself from the sleep equation by saying my verbal cues from beside the cot, then from the doorway, etc until she's happy enough without me there.

:

---

Anyway, I thought it was worth clarifying that the Dream Baby Guide DOES recommend (after you work through a good couple of weeks of communication, role play and teaching your child to trust their bed) that you leave them alone in their cot and manage their crying. The aim is that they'll understand just what you're asking them to do, and that the crying will be short-lived and cranky only as a result, but still- it DOES ask you to leave them to cry in one form.

---

I haven't got to this part of the book. Though a lot of her approach makes good sense to me, I'm not a fan of that part of it. Leaving them while talking, and even mild whinging I think is ok, but I'm not comfortable with leaving a baby to cry.

:

---

I just felt like I should clarify this lest anyone think I'm misrepresenting what it says in the book. I'm not, but at the same time I've chosen to take what works for me, and substitute what doesn't with my own approach

---

I think this is the key with any approach or method. Pick out the parts that click with your own philosophy and work for you and your baby. I think I'll be trying something similar to you when bubs is old enough.

I hope you don't feel judged or like you need to justify yourself because of this thread :hug:

Hi Skeeta,

I do feel a bit like I need to justify myself- it came as something of a surprise to hear it suggested up-thread that my motivation for posting might be something other than plain desire to help others.

I've been through the wringer and back with Sophie's sleep, and the best advice I've received has been through reading what worked for others, rather than being told what to do. Just thought I could contribute my own experience.

Just a bit of Newbie Neurosis- I'm all good now :)

Claire

Why are people feeling so defensive?! No-one has been attacked, only questions asked. If anyone does attack, moderators deal with it, members can also report it via the report function... why is it that people 'expect' to be attacked or judged, when its NOT happened and the idea of it has only been perpetuated from those who use this method. Instead they attack and judge us by expecting us to do it when we work our arses off trying to avoid it happening in the first place. You might hear some pretty passionate views, but I am sorry, you create the feeling of guilt/being judged etc yourself - no-one else can control that.

ETA: Claire, when you run a large website with a large audience, you get alot of people wanting to promote their own products, services or money making schemes for free in this way. A prime example is a new member who comes in, promotes/raves something (or even heavily bags one thing), posts a link and doesnt do an intro or post in any other forums. Unfortunately your post fit that, so we keep an eye on it. We've also had major problems in the past (as have other sites who contacted us) about a well known baby trainer who trolls and posts all over websites, and we all were very quick to spot it.

Hi Kelly,

I think the defensiveness is just the other side of the newbie thing, honestly. I just wandered in here after a hit on my blog thinking I could help out, and was surprised by the reaction. It's a sensitive topic, obviously.

BUT I've seen my own reaction before- I'm a moderator on a well-known writers forum and I see the same thing happen there all the time. We get stacks of people intentionally posting to promote books/ services/ products, and it's just not permitted- and at the same time, we get people wandering in and inadvertently doing the same thing without intending to, then wondering what they've done wrong.

What I'm saying is, I really do understand where you're coming from, and I hope you can see now that I'm not spruiking anything- I'm happy to become a properly introduced forum member (I already posted in that section) and I hope I can provide some support and advice to others (and get some in return- I have a stack of things I need answers for, like how the heck to wean my breast-obsessed daughter!)

Claire

Thanks Claire. Some of the stuff you have said from the book (I haven't read it) does make sense and I can see how it can be useful, but I'm with you, I don't agree with the leaving them to cry bit. Studies have shown that this is bad for baby, and it just doesn't sit right with me at all. Seems like she has some good suggestions in there about some other things though. Especially how to get baby to know what you want from them.

:

---

Hi Skeeta,

I do feel a bit like I need to justify myself- it came as something of a surprise to hear it suggested up-thread that my motivation for posting might be something other than plain desire to help others.

---

I was skeptical of yours and another persons first posts (no offence intended) because you had no posting history on Bellybelly. As you can imagine, it's easy for someone who wants to promote their book to join up a website/forum like this and rave about how their book was so wonderful and helped their baby sleep through the night for the first time, etc, in order to promote sales of their book.

But it sounds like you're a genuine person. Thanks for posting your experiences with your daughter. BB is a great community to share and learn from other mums & dads about what works for them, so I hope you enjoy your time here.

ETA: oops it took a while to finish writing this post in-between feeding baby & playing with toddler. Didn't realise I was repeating what others have already said.

Yup happens everywhere, but this section we're very wary of, because not only the trouble we've had with baby trainers in the past, but of course, it's about health, babies and also BB's philosophy to offer gentle solutions. It was started out with a gentle parenting tangent, and thats why I made the decision to contribute initially given that someone mentioned something about 90% of a baby's cries wasn't an emotional need but a protest... so politely asked to clarify, but somehow, it stirred the notion of being judged. No matter how careful you can post sometimes, it still touches people's wounds.

Ooh I also wanted to ask something else about the author... I haven't read the book so I don't know but does it say what her qualifications are?? Where's she getting all this stuff from, etc? Is there any research to back it up?? I mean like in the book 'what every parent needs to know' they back up things they say with research, e.g. being left to cry is bad for babies health.

So I was wondering if it says anything in the front of her book about how she's come up with these ideas, long-term outcomes of kids, etc. I know someone said she's not a mother herself so I guess it's not from experience with her own kids.

Thanks!

HERE's a prime example of an onslaught of new users ;)

Oh wow!! Just read that whole thread, what a can of worms!!
Did we ever find out if she is a childhaving non nanny now????

Kelly.. what ended happening with the 'lawsuit"?
i know you have had a few threats but is it just that threats and nothing comes from it?

Well there is a child now, I heard it was born prem (I think in NICU), and the nurses there were instructed to wake the baby up at certain intervals/hours for feeds or something... but don't quote (or sue ;)) me on that.... no lawsuit no. She changed her mind what she was going to sue me on. It was gonna be that I publicly questioned her qualifications but changed to the fact we stated that she advocated cc or something. Ah well. All about money, how can you trust someone when they and their minions scout forums for places to post/promote then threaten to sue those who dare question. If what you do is good and works, then it will speak for itself. All that happened really is unprofessional.

Hi Heaven,

Apparently she has worked in daycare for more than 20 years and that's where she's developed her theories.

Claire

LOL Kelly!

Holy moses. It's a bit of a shame when people can't differentiate between a legitimate differing opinion and libel or slander.

A good friend of mine was due a couple of months before me in 2008, and she gave me Save Our Sleep before my bub arrived, telling me she'd read it cover to cover and thought it was the best thing ever. Well, not having had a baby before, it sounded like it made some sense to me. But by the time her baby arrived, she'd done a 180 degree reversal and told me to put it in the bin, which I duly did.

It would never have worked for us- after a month in the NICU, being tube fed and taking complementary bottle feeds, my bub needed to feed hourly to build up my breastmilk supply. After 8 weeks of doing that, we succeeded in ditching the comp feeds and at 14 months she's still fully breastfed (plus solids now, of course). I couldn't agree more that you need to follow your mothering instinct when it comes to matters like that.

It strikes me that the SOS method probably would work for older babies, but I can't imagine applying it my own newborn.

Anyway! That's a matter for another thread, I guess :)

Hi All,

I always recommend Dream Baby Guide. I have a 9 month old son who has had many sleep issues. Sheyne recommends positive routine management (RPM) in order to create peace at night time. She also highlights the strong need for communication. All of the mother in my mum group have had much success from this book with bub sleep 12 hours at night. I personally didnt need to allow my son to cry because the routine and communication helped so much that i didnt need to.

Some people may say that babies don't need routine. But they need to be empowered. They need to know what is going to happen during the day in order to feel less anxious. Dream Baby Guide touches all aspects not just sleep time. I paid $40 and i am so glad i did. I am constantly refering back to it.

Everyone i know personally that has brought it is glad they did.... it just makes sense.

I just read the thread completely, and just wanted to thank everyone. I agree, you learn a lot from these forums. Is great because you are not been told what to do but just reading the experiences of others and reflecting on your own situation really helps!!

I might actually buy that book now. I am always a bit unsure about buying books and look for loads of advice before hand. I think I might actually like this one. If not.. I will let you know!

yes.. I am a new user. But I have been reading from this forum from a while ago.. it is just that I am a lazzy writer. I have a 9 month old .. Before she was sleeping ok at night (she was waking twice but I didnt mind that) but now... like 7 or more times. it is horrible. and I can't keep up. I am also doing a pHD so... need some sleep!

I will let you know how I go. Not planning to go "by the book", I think I will just takes what suits.

will report back...

:) :dance:

Hey Aggwarrior - welcome to BellyBelly :)

Hi Aggwarrior and all,

I first commented back up-thread in message 24, way back in January. At the time my DD was 13 months old and had been sleeping beautifully for a couple of weeks after previously being in our bed and waking 8 times a night.

I just wanted to add a couple of comments now that I'm three months down the line, and DD is a very busy almost-17-month-old.

She's still sleeping in her cot every night from 8:30pm to 7:30am, though three or four nights a week she'll wake up once around 1am wanting some breastmilk (no surprise, since her first sentence, spoken last week, was "more boobs!"). When she's at her best (not sick, teething or any of the other complications we've had in recent months), she'll actually grizzle (not cry) for perhaps five minutes, then put herself back to sleep without the boobs. At the moment she has canine teeth coming through, so she needs some help to get back to sleep.

We still use the routine we developed using the Dream Baby Guide- pyjamas, two books, lights out, milk and cuddles, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, then some "shh, shh" verbal cues. Then we put her down and leave a hand on her back while she nods off. These days it's very rare for her to do anything other than go straight to sleep without a peep, and I'm usually out of her room within a minute of putting her in the cot. No tears, ever.

The perspective I wanted to add was on some of the actions the Dream Baby Guide asks you to do with regard to eating, nappy changes, and bedtime- in particular that you hold your baby down to define what you're asking when you say "lie down", or "sit still". Re eating, the guide also gets you to pin their arms and stuff food into their mouths even as they're yelling at you if they're trying to take control of eating time.

Well, all of these actions worked wonders for us when we first applied them. It wasn't like we had to do them all the time, either- after literally one session on the changing mat and in the high chair, our DD stopped her squirming and fighting and became a perfectly reasonable little person. Holding her down to show her what we meant by "lie down and go to sleep" is one of the reasons she's such a good sleeper these days.

BUT- I've found recently that we've lost a bit of consistency in how we get her to eat (just as an example). She's now big enough that she likes to sit at her little table, or even on a couple of big cushions at the big people's table. She's getting better and better at using a spoon and a fork, and though she doesn't get much in her mouth, she concentrates very hard indeed on getting it right, and hates to be rushed. To me, this is a really critical part of her learning to feed herself- practicing the use of utensils before she's perfect at it, and sitting with the family like a big girl. And I've found that the Rowley technique of pinning her arms and jamming food in her mouth is getting less and less effective- and it's actually causing all of us massive amounts of stress, not least her.

The need to physically battle her at every mealtime was getting so frustrating that I started to do some further research (on top of everything I'd looked at before getting the Dream Baby Guide), and I've since found a whole lot of sites that comment on the fact that toddlers won't voluntarily starve themselves. If they don't want to eat, the likelihood is they're not hungry. Their food intake is a lot lower than it was at various points in toddlerhood. And on top of all that, stuffing food into them when they've clearly indicated they don't want more is a potential pathway to compulsive overeating in the future (they learn that even if you feel full, you keep eating).

So, my approach has changed. I'm now focussed on making mealtime more fun for her, and as soon as she tells me she's finished (she brushes her hands together in an "all done" motion), I take the food away. Within a few days of that, I could see that she had come to trust me to listen to her again, and she started eating a lot better. She's not very interested at all in me feeding her with a spoon at the moment, and she's not very good at eating with a spoon herself yet, so I try to give her a lot of finger food (for example, she absolutely loves veggie risotto, so I've started making it into little patties, coating them in breadcrumbs, and dry-frying them for her). Chicken fingers, diced steamed veggies, mini quiches- anything like that she really loves. In the meantime, she eats a stack of fruit (both dried and fresh) for snacks. She's still not eating anywhere near what I'd like her to, but she's still gaining weight, so I'm confident she's getting enough food.

Anyway! I just wanted to add this for those who are finding the thread and reading through the lot. The principles of the Dream Baby Guide have completely changed our lives- but we've adapted them fairly significantly to suit our needs. At 17 months we have a child who's been sleeping beautifully for four months, but who's still a little fussy when it comes to eating. But at the same time, she's happy, she's healthy, and we're doing much better without the added stress of trying to force her to eat.

Oh, and I'm reading my next parenting book- The Happiest Toddler on the Block, by Dr. Harvey Karp. His Happiest Baby DVD saved our sanity when DD was 8 weeks old- I haven't finished reading yet, but I'll be sure to post about it when I'm done, assuming it makes a difference!

Claire

I cannot recommend Sheyne more highly. Her methods are very sound, and she has an amazing understanding of kids. She came to my home for my then 2 1/2 year old (who never slept!) and she sorted out my 6 month old via email and a detailed routine. I was skeptical I'll admit - but I had a baby that slept 12 hours that night and I never looked back. The toddler got sorted out as well. I have complete faith in her methods, and she saved my sanity, I was doing it very tough. I had tried Tizzie Hall along with control crying - neither of these worked for my kids - but I have found Sheyne spot on - give it a go, you've got nothing to lose.

I have also bought her book - not for myself so much, but for one day when my children have their own kids.

:

---

The perspective I wanted to add was on some of the actions the Dream Baby Guide asks you to do with regard to eating, nappy changes, and bedtime- in particular that you hold your baby down to define what you're asking when you say "lie down", or "sit still". Re eating, the guide also gets you to pin their arms and stuff food into their mouths even as they're yelling at you if they're trying to take control of eating time.

And I've found that the Rowley technique of pinning her arms and jamming food in her mouth is getting less and less effective- and it's actually causing all of us massive amounts of stress, not least her.

---

I find those 'techniques' terribly disturbing, I am gobsmacked that anyone would advocate something like that.
I am so pleased you found better information - it shouldn't be so stressful.
I've got 3 kids, ranging between 'eat everything' to terribly picky - none of them starved.

I will also say I was hassled to eat when I was a child and it's resulted in an awful relationship with food that took me until about 25 to start to try and resolve and it continues until this day.

Goodluck with your peaceful mealtimes xoxoxo

Thanks Lulu :)

I'm probably making those techniques sound a lot worse than they are- the primary focus, first and foremost, is on communicating with your child and helping them to developing an understanding of what you're asking them to do (through role playing with a doll and the like) so that you don't actually have to get to that point. The pinning them down to define what you're asking is not supposed to be a solution for every mealtime, and it really did work instantaneously for us at first.

That being said, while I was frustrated enough to try it in the first place, I'm uncomfortable continuing with it for more than a couple of instances for some of the same reasons you mention- primarily because I have my own awful relationship with food that comes from a power struggle with my parents when I was a kid. I've also seen my sister-in-law hospitalised with anorexia from a whole raft of different food issues, and there's no way I want to make mealtimes anything but fun for my daughter.

These kinds of ideas seem to come from the school of thought that toddlers should really behave just like little adults, when that's completely silly. They're toddlers! I know I'll have hugely different perspectives on just about everything when we eventually add some siblings to our family for DD :)

Absolutely!
Although I think toddlers are alot smarter than those books credit them for ;)
They understand sitting at the table to eat with the family is dinner/lunch time - if they have that example set for them.

Best techniques I used. Child won't eat - I start picking food off their plate - oh some of them hate that! And finish their meal.
The good old "just try it". If they don't - no big deal.
No dessert - I don't know any child who doesn't go for that. You can always get one or two spoonfuls in that way. Again if they don't eat, I never make a big deal, they just don't get dessert.

I involved mine in the entire preparation process, even from the high chair. Peeling potatoes, putting them in the pot, explaining what I'm doing. Letting them have a go at mashing etc. Asking if they think it needs a splash of milk yadda yadda.

Also growing something edible in your garden, with the little ones watering it then picking the produce and preparing it in the kitchen is a great way to establish a good relationship with food. It needn't be confined to the high chair or dinner table!

Yeah, I agree with Lulu, dessert is only ever on offer here if you're still hungy, ie you've finished your dinner. Some nights DD will make a real effort to finish her dinner because she r-e-a-l-l-y wants dessert, only to decide after an extra couple of spoonfuls, "I'm full, Mum, I'll have dessert tomorrow night instead." To be able to self-moderate her food makes me feel good about her relationship with eating.

I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone tried to force me to eat. :o

The happiest baby DVD seemed to be somewhat less intrusive to me, so I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the happiest toddler book.