Ultrasound. Are women so out of touch?

Wow, your hospital's awesome! I mean, the bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired, but I think it's great that they are using the technology they have to help mothers if they choose to take advantage of it - my local hospital will only give two scans, and they would rather only do the 20-week scan but to know when an expectant mum is at 20 weeks they need to have already done a dating scan - they'd skip that first one entirely if they could get away with it. I had to ring the hospital no less than FOUR times to get a dating scan with DD2, and I was outright refused the opportunity to have an NT scan ('you're too young, it's a waste of resources' they told me repeatedly), and a good friend of mine told me the other day that the new managing director of the hospital has disallowed u/s techs from revealing the baby's gender to parents at the 20-week scan - apparently s/he is afraid parents will try to terminate if it's not the gender they want?! Umm, yeah, because a TOP at 20-odd weeks is SO easy to access, especially for such a frivolous reason, what a douche.

But yeah, even when I had threatened miscarriages, bleeding, pain, lack of movement towards the end of pg etc etc, I was denied ultrasounds every time, told it was a waste of resources, if I was losing my baby an ultrasound wasn't going to fix it so why bother? I wasn't trying to abuse the system (although I jump at any chance I'm given to look at my baby and make sure everything's okay in there), I just wanted to be able to use the equipment my tax dollars are paying for, when I had good reason to use it!

Yes, your doctor was a bit of a twat in the way he spoke to you about not wanting more scans than you deem necessary, I don't agree with his manner at all. But I think it is great that you are at least offered the chance to have more scans than my local hospital deems 'necessary'.

I had all three, but that's because I have erratic AF (For eg. I had a month where I had AF twice! Then it disappeared and didn't come back for I think it was 52 days :()
But they have no right to have a go at you - it's your choice and I think they should respect that :hug:

when i went to book in my NT scan i was told i *had* to have a dating scan too. i was so taken aback that i booked it in...only to call back later and cancel :rofl: i used FF and knew when i O'd so it seemed completely irrelevant.

last time i was pg with DD 3 years ago, dating scans werent given as par for the course at the private hossy i went to. i wonder if that has changed now?

Perhaps it is because so many women DON'T know their bodies, DON'T know their cycles, and have no idea when they ovulate - and believe theat everyone has 28 day cycles.
So yeah, your LMP date can be out by quite aways.

I'm not sure I am seeing your issue - you know when you are due and you didn't have a dating scan which is the 'norm' and is generally considered to be the most accurate scan in terms of deterining age.

Also, as mentioned above, most women have it to ensure a viable prenancy and to see their babies - and there is nothing worng with that.
If you know your dates, why does it matter what someone who is trained to deal with the lowest common denominator think? ;) Smile, nod, answer his questions and be on your way, knowing you are one of a select froup of women who have an understanding of their own bodies.

I don't think that it is that women are so out of touch, but it's a perpetuating cycle. Some women *need* that reassurance of a scan, maybe due to a previous loss, or that she is unsure of her dates etc. Some will just take every opportunity they can to see their baby on the screen and I think some Drs will play on that. My Gyno is an ob and he has a very flash u's machine in his rooms and he will give every single pg woman a scan at every single appointment. I think that the majority of women just don't realise the damage too many scans can do to a baby. I told SIL recently (who sees my gyno for her pg) that having a u/s is to a baby what tapping on a fish tank is to a fish, and she was shocked! She had no idea. Her sister is of the opinion that we have the technology so we may as well use it. She is a nurse btw. My other SIL (DH's sister) is 17wks and has not had a single scan. She just didn't realise you had to. She has only seen a Dr once during her pg to get the 9wk bloods done and that was it.

I think that women have inadvertently created this situation where it is now routine to have many scans during a pg and we still have the mentality where we just don't question what Dr's say to us or feel that we have a right to even challenge it in the first place. So I think that only we can stop it kwim? We can ask 'do we really need that scan and why do we need it?'

ETA - just wanted to add that I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but something that has just happened kwim?

But I'm sorry that you were spoken too like that Tanya :hug: it wasn't necessary.

I personally hate the early scans - for me it just caused more stress than it was worth.

My GP wanted me to have the early scan not for dating purposes but to make sure that my pregnancy was not eptopic (he said seeing as though it took us nearly 3 years to conceive he wanted to be sure). I went when I thought I was 6 weeks and the scan showed a 5 week sac with a yolk (but apparently everything looks great for that gestation and my Dr is not concerned). Now because it was not a dating scan Im not having a follow up scan and my GP does not want me to have another scan until 18 weeks - this would be great except now in the back of my mind I am freaking out about measuring a week behind - so have decided to have ask for the 12 week scan to see if everything is alright.

Had I not had that early scan I would not be as stressed out as I am and I would only be having the 18 weeks scan.

If I am ever blessed to have another pregnancy I will have no early scan just the 18 week as for me it is not worth it.

But that's the point - Tan's asking if women are so out of touch with their bodies that a sonographer is more of an expert on when they're due than the actual woman in question - and it seems that the answer is - sometimes they are that out of touch!

With both I've had the NT and morphology scan. With my first, I had no idea that cycle lengths could mean that ovulation happened at different times and so on - I'd always been textbook 28 days so I never thought much about it...before pregnancy I knew nothing about my body, so it doesn't surprise me that women aren't familiar with their bodies, cycles, symptoms. I had no clue. I only got into the Family Birthing Centre for a waterbirth because all the OBs were booked out! And I thought that was bad luck! :rofl: Someone sure was looking out for me...

I imagine Tan, that your being confident about your dates and informed, might have been less usual than we'd hope. I'd love to see a little more education in high schools during their student development days - or was I just not paying attention (feasible option)?

Not all women have scans for fun. I had a 6 week scan to check if it was a "viable pregnancy" as I had previous miscarriages. Then I had bleeding and they scanned again. Then I had the NT scan, because that was my choice. And then the 20 week scan which is standard. I think it's unfair to suggest that women don't know their bodies. Some women need them for piece of mind as Trillian said. I have a friend who delivered her baby at 20 something weeks because the bubbas brain had grown on the outside of his head, had she had the NT scan whilst it still would have been distressing it wouldn't have been as much. When she went in at 20 weeks she thought everything is fine, and to some people that extra 6 weeks would have made a difference. I also have a friend who nearly lost her life and her childs because she wasn't monitored closely enough. I see your point but there are plenty of cases that are the opposite too.

With the dates thing though Nelle, there have been women on here for example who know their dates and their cycles, but still don't quite know how they managed to fall pg that cycle because maybe their body threw them a curveball and they ovulated early, or late or even twice or their DH's swimmers have super powers LOL, or they may have breakthrough bleeding that makes them think they aren't pg only to find out later they are etc. And the sonographer is no expert by any stretch of the imagination! If they didn't have that little machine to calculate size and averages, then they would have no idea either. I don't think this issue is even really about sonograhers, but about the trend maternal heathcare has taken now, where it is accepted that a woman has at least 3 scans for her pg, maybe more if something happens to create enough concern to justify more scans later on. It's not one single thing, but many things which have created it.

Aside from pregnancies with known risk factors, a LOT of women who are expected to have normal pregnancies and births are just plain talked out of trusting themselves and inculcated into this culture of "I'm pregnant, these are all the scans I have to have cos that's what you do" without questioning lots of things - the validity of the results, the variability of interpretation, the unproven safety of so many US during pg, then the skill of knowing what to do with results and how helpful they are to wellbeing during pregnancy anyway!
When I saw GP's during pg (when I had a bad cold or non-pg need) it was generally very confronting for them a) that I had no US information to give them and b) that I was planning a homebirth. They tried so hard (EVERY TIME!) to cast doubt on my instincts and to insist they knew what was happening with me more than I did.
For my first pg I went for 2 US with the same person and she was lovely - none of this 'great, you've come to seek the services of a higher power than yourself' crap.

I personally do think that there are too many ultrasounds i did not have this many with my first!!! I have had the NT scan with the rest of mine cause with my first they found a marker on his heart which can be one sign of down syndrome, i was stressed for the rest of my pregnancy and felt that the NT scan was necessary with the other!!! Then with DD they found the same thing but since i had had the NT scan there was not concern as my results were really good!!!
Tanya sorry tohear that they made you feel bad for this only being your first!!! But woo hoo that all was well!!! Mine is tomorrow!! Can't wait!!!

Just reflecting - I don't think Tanya's saying 'people who have scans are out of touch with their bodies' or 'scans are unnecessary' or 'no-one is in touch with their body these days'.

Absolutely some scans are necessary, helpful, reassuring, life saving. One or all of those things!

I just took it as she was mourning the fact that some people don't take notice of their bodies anymore because as times change we are relying on other people to tell us about our own bodies. Which not everyone will see as a negative thing anyway.

Obviously there are people who know their bodies well AND have scans! But I do wonder - as a huge umbrella generalisation - do we know our bodies less well or more well than our grandmas, who knew their cycles and didn't have scans? I don't mean know ABOUT our bodies, but I mean sort of being 'in tune' knowing symptoms and things...:think:

That's why it is a catch22 Maya. We have women who would probably be fine, but as soon as someone sows seeds of doubt - and it doesn't have to be a Dr either - then the damage is done in most cases and then the Dr's keep that cycle going by offering it as part of normal maternal care anyway and they don't even have to make women doubt themselves. I don't disrespect women who do want to have these scans because they obviously have their reasons and though I may not understand it when women do just want to see their baby for no other reason than to see their baby or if they think the technology should be used just because it is there it isn't up to me to question that. I will tell them what it is like for a baby to have repeated scans but I wont convince them not to do it, they have to do that themselves.

ETA - *snap* Nelle. Hmmm yeah, I get what you are saying, but I just dont' know. There are too many different senarios which will make you think about it differently when it comes to this one thing kwim? I think that maybe when you read so many stories, or know of people who have had losses, late, early or otherwise that it may make it harder to trust your own body so you need to have that trust reaffirmed by someone else?

I was hoping to only have the NT and Morphology scans this pregnancy, but due to a raft of complications, large bright red bleeds, discovery that I was losing a twin, concerns with my cervix length..... I had 5 scans by the time I was ten weeks :redface: not what I wanted, but it is how it ended up going.

What upset me more was the second scan I had at the WCH, the Sonographer was rude as he didn't believe me that there was a second sac, that had ruptured (it had ruptured the night before, and he was doing an external US, and it was clearly visibly on the internal scans I had prior to after and about a week further on it was visible more on the external and the partial sac was still present just over 1 week ago. It is horrible when they question your knowledge, it is your body and you know what you have been going through. He had to get his boss to be present for the internal scan and, she had a quick look, said I wouldn't make it to full term and walked out the door again... she didn't fill me with any form of confidence at all :(

Unfortunately I will be having quite a few more scans, to monitor my cerivix length, growth scans on bub as we have had a reduciton in growth and checking all the bleeds and clotting that is left, although it was breaking down and hopefully it will be reabsorbed. This isn't what I would prefer, but my OB is keeping a close eye on everything to try to prolong the pregnancy as long as possible. And for that reason alone for me and for this pregnancy I am happy to do what we have to do....

With our first pregnancy we did chose to get a 3D scan done at 29 weeks, but we aren't planning to do it this time.

It was very rude how you were treated and it was your decision to chose what scans you wanted, not for them to dictate, I lvoe how your dates were almost identical to the scan, a bit of a nah nah nah nah nah :nahnah:

Exactly, Trill - even when you think you're in tune with yourself, ther's someone with a framed certificate saying you couldn't possibly be. My MW changed the EDD when I 'went over' because I told her when implantation occurred. Had I told a GP how I knew they would have insisted I go by something more 'reliable' like LMP (which was proving UNreliable!) or a scan. It was very reassuring to have this discussion with my MW and to then have my baby about 2 days after the 'new' EDD :)
We HAVE, in general, lost how to intuit our bodies because of the prevailing culture of consultation, specialists and scanning. So, my answer to the OP question is 'yes, women are out of touch with themselves a lot of the time, for various reasons and now we just take it for granted that this is the case and distrust women who are taking it back'. Medicare rebates for health professionals are the sweeter for it, too.
ETA: My comments are separate from the women who are curious to see their babies again. I know women who just wouldn't have a clue about their cycles, and absolutely clueless about what's going on with their bodies - it's not so much an indictment on them, personally, but on our culture.

There comes a point where we have to accept that all our decisions will not find approval with every other human being. It doesn't feel nice when we bear the brunt of this disapproval but we need to be strong in our decision and know that what we are doing is right. In the end, it really is the mother's choice as to whether they have numerous scans or not. For whatever reasons. Just like it is their choice to be having a baby. Sure there are some people who may not be in tune with their bodies, but so what? I think we are lucky to have the option of a dating scan. I chose to just let my body work and not worry about when I was ovulating etc. I did know when my AF was supposed to be due and I knew that they were pretty regular, but I had no idea if that meant that I would give birth on a particular date. Babies come when they want anyway, regardless of whether your dates are right or not.
I'm sorry you weren't treated nicely by your sonographer. A lot of the time, they haven't received the right training in dealing with patients especially when it comes to the sensitive nature of pregnancy. I had fantastic experiences with most of my scans but that's because I paid a fair bit for private after bad experiences with the public system.
At the end of the day, it's wonderful news that everything was good with your scan. Best of luck for the rest of your pregnancy xx

I guess our views on this too will be clouded by our own beliefs, opinions and experiences and it is hard to shake those off.

Quite apart from whether or why women have scans, I agree that there is very little trust or respect for how much wisdom women have in their own bodies. Throughout IVF treatment I was "told" when I would ovulate, and my FS was always surprised that I could pinpoint ovulation accurately without him needing to do a dildo-cam first.

I was discouraged from questioning the IVF treatment and wanting to be more involved in decisions about my treatment.

And since falling pregnant I've had to argue with sonographers and medical practitioners about my EDD. I KNOW when I had a FET, I KNOW when I ovulated, and I KNOW what my EDD is. Yet everyone wants to know my LMP so that THEY can work out my EDD for me. My LMP is unhelpful because my cycles were wacky. But nobody trusts me when I tell them about my knowledge of my body.

I told a MW yesterday that Baby is bum-down at the moment, but she didn't believe that I could tell so proceeded to mould my belly until she had established it for herself.

The lack of trust in women's wisdom is pervasive. It's societal and I think the result of many decades, centuries even, of women being told what is best for them, and not having the voice to question the patriarchy. Informed choice = argumentative, naughty, difficult patients.

Viva la revolucion!