Why do LTTTCers seem to prefer a c/s?

Sushee, I think part of the problem is that many of us have had years to learn all there is to learn about how to get pregnant and stay pregnant. But we don't look into what comes next at all because that's putting the cart before the horse and is way too scary.

The research on how to actually deal with pregnancy and birth happens once you are there, and if you have endured losses, probably not until much later! For me, it wasn't until I was feeling Munchkin move regularly at around 22 weeks that I came out of denial and actually admitted that a birth was going to happen at the end of this. This gives me a matter of weeks to become as familiar with birth as I was with IVF. Of course, being the perfectionist and compulsive researcher that I am, I feel I need to know as much about one as the other... But at a few days off 28 weeks I'm still not yet completely out of denial and the research still isn't happening. To me, it's no wonder that women in this situation are content to sit back and trust their OB - because it all seems too hard! We have a deadline now that was never there before...

It's also becoming blatantly obvious to me that I'm just not like other pregnant women. There are another 5 pregnant women at work at the moment and all are content and happy to talk about their pregnancies with everyone - including the students. It's not just a peculiarity to my personality and teaching style that as soon as a student wants to question me about my pregnancy that I squash the conversation ASAP and get everyone back to work. The number of times I've heard "but Mrs XXX told us..." I'm the same in baby shops and with strangers - I only seem to want to talk to my close friends about being pregnant and would be so much happier if everyone else could just ignore the bump - not so easy now that it's too big to ignore!

And just last night I was reading an article about how IVF teenagers are more aggressive and more prone to behavioural problems because their parents tend to be more indulgent... but that's a topic for another thread!

BW

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Sushee, I think part of the problem is that many of us have had years to learn all there is to learn about how to get pregnant and stay pregnant. But we don't look into what comes next at all because that's putting the cart before the horse and is way too scary.

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I can certainly relate to that!

Great topic Sushee. You have managed to raise something that doesn't get spoken about because it seems once you fall pg after IVF either you are expected to just get on and have a pg like any other 'natural pg' or alternatively are monitored to the max to ensure the little mite(s) are still there and doing well for our own sanity's sake. Most of my friend's natural pg's don't seem to be monitored half as much as those I know who have fallen pg through IVF. Yet are the risks any higher for an IVF pg than a natural one?

I hope you don't mind me putting my two cents in when I am clearly not pg and I know that I don't always react or respond the way I think I will when faced with the reality. So this may be a moot point.

I have always always thought I will have a VB and minimal intervention (if I can mentally cope with it) throughout a pg. People around me are always amazed that I don't want an OB to monitor my pg and that I am happy for a midwife/GP guided pg, after all this time and effort we have gone through to fall pg. They wonder shouldn't we ensure we have the absolute best ongoing and continual care available?

I think as I am using an egg donor the chance to experience a natural birth and share that experience with our bub is now even more important to me than it was when I was doing IVF myself. I want to have all the connection I can possibly have to my baby. I feel I have failed on the egg front but by golly I want to do what I was born to do - grunt, groan, suffer and birth my baby! A real physical suffering after all these years of mental suffering (and some physical) mostly for naught, would be simply fantastic IMO.

Everything is so medicalised with regards to IVF conception that I would love a medical intervention free pg and birth if it is possible. The fact that VB is a safer option than a C/S is just the icing on the cake for my decision. I think even if it were the other way around I would have to go the VB as long as there was no strong medical reason not to.

I hope that I get to test my belief and feelings out one day! ;)

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IVFers need support not only during trying to conceive, they should have access to support during their pregnancies, and through the early years of motherhood.

I know some women believe that, once pregnant, there is no difference between a woman who conceived naturally and a woman who conceived via AC after many many years of struggling with infertilty. I don't agree. I think you cannot go through such a life-changing event such as LTTTC and not be affected by it. So why do we as a society essentially ignore these same effects simply because the woman is now pregnant?

This is a common theme among pg LTTTCers, and women who become mothers after LTTTC - they feel isolated and think their feelings of guilt, distress and anxiety is something to be ashamed of. They currently don't have the opportunity to work through those issues, mostly they don't even talk about it. They somehow believe that admitting that they aren't 100% ecstatic 100% of the time will mean they aren't 'deserving' of their good fortune of finaly having success.

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Soooooo true!! A lot of you will know that I struggled for a while after bringing DS home, I suffered from shocking anxiety which began the first week home and ended in a series of panic attacks that I needed treatment for in the end. All is GREAT now, but those early weeks weren't much fun at all (and how guilty do I feel even saying that??!!). The birth went fine, he was safe, he was HERE and then everyone just figured I'd get on with it. I do think the lack of sleep contributed but the expectations I'd placed on myself and this poor little baby soon became sooooo overwhelming and I didn't feel like I had any right to express this - I'd fallen prg, I had my beautiful healthy baby, everything was 'fixed' now right?? Wrong.

I had a different TTC journey to most - I have a genetic condition, and wanted to use PGD to not pass it on. The counselling/test development phase was years of waiting. We conceived first try when we eventually got there.
That process was one where trusting the experts to do their jobs well was the only approach that was possible.

We then carried that approach through to my pregnancy - so when my obstetrician said to me that unless my baby had turned head-down by 38 weeks a CS was the safest option that's what we did. I didn't start out wanting a CS - we were wanting to avoid it, since surgery isn't my favourite thing.

I''m just a lurker, so my points are not from someone who is a LTTTCer or using AC. So I'll be extra careful in what I say!

Firstly, the idea that c/s is safer abounds for most pg women (who knows why?). In our antenatal class when we were discussing c/s, etc, we had to nominate points to go against each birthing option (pros and cons), for vb, c/s, drugs, etc, and when I suggested c/s wasn't as safe for mother or baby both the m/w and the class were HORRIFIED that I could bring this up. Which is ironic, because at the time with my placenta praevia it looked like I'd be the one most likely to go down that path... (and did, much to my disappointment). My ob also mentioned that older women and those who'd taken longer to get to pg were the ones most likely to request a c/s. Not something he endorsed.

I also wondered if it might not have something to do with using a specialist? If you've seen a FS and you don't want to be left hanging with no one paying any attention to this hard-won pg, the idea of waiting weeks and weeks to see someone might lead many down the path of an ob? Also seeing the one person probably appeals, given that there have been so many specialists and drs involved and I imagine not all of them good! Plus, you are probably talking about a group of mothers-to-be with private health insurance who are looking into private hospitals. And we all know that obs and private hospitals have higher rates of c/s. Personally, I think one of the reasons this is the case is that these options are more readily available (I read in a recent study for eg that women in private hospitals were more likely to have an epi simply because an anaesthetist was likely to be able to respond more quickly than in a public hospital, not because they were more likely to ask, and then, the intervention cascade thing occurs...).

Just my two cents!

I think that Jennifer, you make such a great observation - most IVFers do end up using an ob. And using an ob usually equals higher rates of intervention. BW, you make an even more pertinent point - I remember too being pregnant and refusing to buy anything for baby until I was well past 20 weeks. For many IVFers, planning for baby, let alone birth earlier than that is almost taboo, isn't it? Which then makes the time to think and plan for birth even shorter.

So what do we try to overcome first? The 'disconnection' women feel from their pregnancy early on? I'd love to know how. I have regular had conversations with pg LTTTCers who are so anxious in the first half of their pgs that they virtually become recluses, refusing to talk about their pgs because it all feels too fragile to discuss freely or feeling stuck between being happy at their good fortune and guilt that the many women they have loved and supported have not been as lucky.

I know when I was newly pg, what I really would have appreciated was someone telling me what I was feeling so damned normal for an LTTTCer. It is such a common thing for LTTTCers to feel! But when I participated in the PGALTTTC threads, everyone talked about anxiety, yes, or scans and ob visits, but no one spoke about how damaged emotionally and psychologically we'd become as a result of the process of being LTTTC (and let me qualify - not all LTTTCers feel this way, but I did and I know many women do).

Since having Charlie this is something I've tried to address. First with the social group, but whle the group has had some amazing conversations, I've still felt that there is this MASSIVE area of support missing - and that's for those post-LTTTC.

What would help PALTTTC and Parenting after LTTTC women grapple with their isolation? And assist them towards doing the research, making the decisions, learning to find control over their bodies again? I don't know if there is an easy answer to hose questions. It's all I've been thinking about for days now. :)

Also wanted to also address a few things:

Firstly while I have focussed the issue of a lack of support for birth choices/BFing for LTTTCers specifically, I personally have appreciated all the comments and posts from those who are not LTTTC but care enough about women in general to wish to help contribute their ideas.

Secondly, I hope this thread speaks not just to LTTTCers who have 'graduated' but assists those still TTCing to recognise and acknowledge these issues long before they 'graduate'. In that respect, I'm thrilled that someone like dusty has posted, which shows she's thinking about these issues now, and it becomes less taboo in the long run.

Thirdly, scooby, I know I seemed to come down hard on words like 'ridicule and 'forcing' but it's because I've seen sooooo many threads started with the best of intentions degenerate to slagging threads about c/s vs VB, or BFing vs FFing. It's gotten so that members become almost too scared to mention any of those things, yet if we don't talk about these things, the information doesn't get out there, and women feel yet more isolated and uninformed.

I understand it's an emotive topic, so emotive in fact that it's getting to be that if you try to talk about VB being safer, or BFing being better for baby (and these are facts supported by evidence, true even if you're not trying to be pro-anything) you're almost gauranteed someone is going post something that will start to skew the topic into yet another us vs them scenario, whether intentionally or not. And yet when I speak about IVFers, I don't see any 'us and them', to me, we're all 'us' and I want the kind of support and services that is best for 'us'.

Before I started this thread, I told myself I wasn't going to let this thread become divided and angry. It's about finding solutions, not persecuting anyone's choices. So I'm nipping it in the bud early. I completely understand Nixon and your posts, they are legitimate opinions, based on experiences here or elsewhere. They are just off-topic for this thread, and I am requesting that everyone stay on topic so that this thread doesn't become a c/s vs VB thread. So it's all good, hun. I'm just being extra fussy about that, is all.

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I also wondered if it might not have something to do with using a specialist? If you've seen a FS and you don't want to be left hanging with no one paying any attention to this hard-won pg, the idea of waiting weeks and weeks to see someone might lead many down the path of an ob? Also seeing the one person probably appeals, given that there have been so many specialists and drs involved and I imagine not all of them good!

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This was the case for me

I remember being so excited when those 2 lines came up on the stick, and when DH hugged me we were both shaking. When we had our first scan around 6 weeks and saw the heartbeat, DH was just so proud, but me, I was like "Oh, ok, there it is" I didn't feel connected at all.

I don't think I bought anything for quite a while too. DH was the one pushing for nappy bags and clothes. We put a change table on layby about 3 and half months before DS was due lol! And that was only because DH picked it up and walked off with it.

I too didn't like chatting to people about my pregnancy. My IL's were shockers, they were forever talking about friends of my BIL who had success with IVF, but how the mum was dissapointed it was 1 baby after they had 2 embryos put back, and how she should have been appreciative. I copped flack from my MIL when I tried to share my feelings on how I was worried about doing the injections, her supportive words were "I don't understand, if you want a baby, you just do it" (the injections)
You know, I was at my happiest with my pregnancy when i was either chatting to DH about DS, or he had his hand on my tummy, and also when i was chatting here on BB.

After DS was born, I posted in the parenting after LTTTC, about how he was so full on with not sleeping, screaming and wanting to be held all the time, how I felt bad after what we went through to have him and I was wishing he would just be quiet.
Willow replied with a beautiful post - as did the other girls :) - that made me cry ( happy tears though) it was nice to know that I was feeling normal, and it was ok. I think we feel like we can't be seen like we are being unappreciative of our IVF babies, afterall, this is what we wanted wasn't it? (Thanks MIL)

Anyway, I think I've babbled on for long enough

Nic

Fantastic post, Nic :clap:

We're just gearing up now for cycle #5... and I'M TERRIFIED.

NOT for the cycle part, not even for the 'will it work, if not, here we go again part'... but for the part that if it DOES work, at what point will I finally accept it?

Since BG & BW both got their long awaited BFP's, I've followed along with support both on here & through sms & phonecalls... but I equally feel their hesitation & fear as to each day and the insecurity of 'when can I finally relax & enjoy this' (I hope you girls don't mind me using you as an example... just that you two are the most current ones ATM ;))

I'm feeling the exact same emotions as they are - but about myself - and I haven't even got the BFP yet :rolleyes:

I completely understand where Dusty is at... and I thank you, too, Sushee for this thread ;) because its allowed me to think about something that I've been 'filing for another day' for a long time now.

Seeing as how we're about to embark on a new cycle, I need to start getting my head around things, too - I could have written Dusty's post myself!

Personally it never crossed my mind that c/s would have been a safer option for the birth of my DD. In the end it turned out that her heart rate dropped and I had to have an emergency c/s but my intention throughout my pg was to have a VB with as little intervention as possible.

This pregnancy was also an AC and once again I'd love a VB but if a healthy baby means another c/s then I'll be happy to do whatever it takes.

When it comes down to it, all we've ever wanted was to have a healthy baby in our arms but we never during pregnancy really considered one birthing option over another as being safer. I really think I would have felt the same way even if I wasnt a LTTTCer.

Holly, I'm on the edge of 28 weeks, I have Munchkin wiggling away and feet in my ribs... and I still don't think I've fully accepted that this is happening and is real!

One thing that I have noticed is that "normal" pregnant women - ones who haven't taken years, used IVF and endured losses are allowed to complain about morning sickness, are allowed to feel disappointment at the gender of their child, are allowed to complain about getting no sleep because the baby has kicked all night and kept them awake, are allowed to grizzle and grumble about rib pain and the fact that they are starting to waddle and not walk...

And then those of us that have endured a tougher journey get comments like "but this is what you wanted", "you worked so hard for this, surely that means something?", "shouldn't you just be thankful that you're having a baby at all?", and I could probably go on, and I'm sure others can add a lot.

People seem to forget that pregnancy is damned uncomfortable and I think it's unusual for someone to enjoy (I mean really ENJOY, not just enjoy the reality of what it means) being pregnant.

I couldn't get people to understand that I loved the fact that I was pregnant, but I hated feeling so sick. I loved my baby no matter what, but there was a stage where I'd have preferred a girl. That I love the reassurance of kicks, but wish Munchkin would be quieter at times or get his feet out of my ribs or stop smashing my bladder, or simply let me simply sit the way I want without carrying on like I've stuffed a mad cat in a hessian sack!

I loved what those things mean... but it doesn't mean I love actually feeling them.

There is the attitude that others can complain, but long-termers, IVFers etc must enjoy every single moment of being pregnant, keep smiling and never ever complain because they went through so much to get here.

If anything, I think the dream of pregnancy has been idealised by us, and it's a huge, hard crash when we start to realise the realities of morning sickness, fatigue, etc, etc.

From what Nic and Willow have said, this doesn't change once the baby is in your arms.

I think I've forgotten where I was going with this! :doh:

I suspect all of that leads to a feeling of needing a specialist, etc - all those things which have been pinpointed as tending to lead towards a c-section. That not only is there a reluctance among long-termers to talk about their pregnancies with people who haven't shared the experience, but there's an attitude amongst others that prevents us from speaking about things honestly and openly.

How can we go into birth as a "normal pregnant woman" when we don't feel like one and aren't treated like one by the world around us?

BW

Brilliant post BW!! I really identify with everything you said.

I have found that I beat myself up for thinking those things, think that I should be so grateful for everything (and I am very grateful to be pg), but you're right - sometimes pregnancy is just hard, and we should be able to have all our feelings acknowledged, even the negative ones.

Really good point too about not having much time to prepare for birth, when you only just start to accept that you might have a baby after you're 20 weeks plus. I am amazed when I see posts about women looking for doulas etc. when they're a few weeks pg, for me I couldn't even contemplate anything other than miscarriage as an end result for at least the first 15 weeks of my pregnancy. I still can't quite believe that it's probably going to work out fine :crossfingers:

I'm quite torn between feeling like a 'normal' pg woman who should be able to have a low-intervention birth, and being utterly terrified that something is going to go wrong - sometimes I feel like I'm just waiting for the axe to fall. I think that's why I'm sticking with my ob and private hospital, but also having a doula and being very clear about my birth preferences if all is going well. I'm trying to balance my optimism and my fear.

BW and Devon...just wanted to say thank you for your wonderful posts. I've been finding it so hard to put into words how I'm feeling and you've both said it...exactly spot on!

just leading back to the original question though, because I've been thinking about this so much lately I'm getting brain drain. :)

What sorts of services, support networks or information, as a pg LTTTCer (or future pg LTTTCers), would you like to see out there for you? How do we make other pg and parent LTTTCers know they're not alone?

How do we get the message out to women that they need to take back control of their choices, as far as post-LTTTC matters go, such as making informed decisions about their birth, or the way they feed their baby, or the way they parent? Because being infertile/subfertile and the effects of it doesn't just go away when you get that BFP.

Let's pretend I've got a million dollars and an army of counsellors and any other resources at hand, what support would YOU ask me to provide to help you through this? To just be able to speak and have someone listen to what you're saying? To not feel isolated anymore? To have someone work through those deep, dark issues that everyone seems to scared to talk about?

So that you CAN make choices about birth, feeding and parenting that isn't completely influenced by your fear and your anxiety?

A real-life we-had-to-wait-for-ages-and-now-we-are-pregnant group (like a Mum's group but to start while still pregnant) would have been helpful.

What do we need?
I guess I've created my own support network since the BFP. I'm lucky to be living in a smallish town which has a great hospital so I can drop in and see the midwives and I have a great GP who also delivers bubs at the hospital. Then I have my private ob in the next BIG town and they have a midwife there too. So having the shared care and understanding of a team of people has been great. My GP has let me drop in whenver I've felt anxious to check bubs heartbeat with the doppler and just to have a chat. I would have gone mad without that. The biggest help has been having someone on the end of the phone (midwives) who don't make me wait...it's just 'come in...how soon can you be here?' All this support has greatly increased my confidence in both myself and this pregnancy. And I'm having some great conversations wbout my birth choices. I've been shown through the birthing suites at both hospitals with no judgement of expectation. I feel really lucky to have people that have genuinely acknowledge the effect this journey has had on me and providing me with a different level of support to counteract the 'fear' that comes with it. The biggest bonus is that I haven't been forced into making any decisions this early on. I have been given time and space to explore this new world of pregnancy and childbirth.

Sushee, I'd love to see an end to damaging information being disseminated by the media.

There are two floating around that are making me seriously angry at the moment - the one about "IVF children" being more aggressive, and this one.

So now the media is making us out to be incompetent and stressed out parents whose children will turn out to be aggressive bullies! How does this help?

Probably a little too angry to be coherent at the moment, but I'm loving Kmn's idea - networking, supporting each other - good start!

BW

I'd like to see more follow up from the clinics (or someone!) for new IVF mums. I wasn't a new mum, but I was carrying a lot of emotional baggage by the time DS arrived.

I remember when DS was a few months old and I got the obligatory call from our clinic to see how the birth went, get all our stats etc for their records. The nurse on the phone asked me 'So, did you end up relaxing and enjoying it in the end?' She remembered how anxious I'd been during my prg. This call came at the height of my anxiety/panic attacks and that call made me feel sooooooo awful. I wanted to cry and tell them that I still wasn't OK, that I was a mess and I was screwing everything up, but I knew no one wanted to hear that. They wanted the happy ending. So I gave it to them. :(

**ETA: BW - just read that second article and have to say that a LOT of those thoughts ring true for me. Don't have time to do a lengthy post about it, but I actually think there might be some truth to it, whether we like it or not.

I agree about the follow-up services for IVFers, I think that's an area that is distinctly lacking. Not necessarily through the clinic, but even if they referred their patients through to some sort of support group.

Or even have a specialised doula service or something similar to the ABA hotline that 'supports' you either by phone or in person through your anxieties.

ETA - about the reports you mentioned BW, the first is just laughable, but the second has some aspects that actually align with some of the things I've said here in this thread. Though as a media/news piece, it doesn't go in depth enough and instead probably ends up depicting IVF women as incapable, neurotic and unrealistic to the public, instead of exploring their real and complex issues with sensitivity.

Sushee, I've seen/read enough to know that there is actually something behind the second article... and enough to make me wonder whether the woman they interviewed really was coping as well as she made out. The frustration came from the fact that they just seemed to want to tell everyone about it, but offer no solutions, no answers, no suggestions. That's where the anger came from. Continue to portray us as "different" and we'll never get anywhere! Offer solutions to make us less different to women who are able to conceive naturally and progress is made. I just have no idea at this stage what those solutions may be. Probably because I really have no idea of what life at that stage will be like.

BW

I like kmn's idea - if fertility clinics could arrange get-togethers of their patients who had recently fallen pg, that would be great.

Or like you said, Sushee - if the clinic could refer you to a support group, that could be really helpful. Especially if it was facilitated by some kind of support worker. I think I would have been interested in that.

I like the doula service idea too, a doula who had some experience of LTTTC or loss herself would be great to talk to.

Same as Willow, i got a call from the clinic just recently (babies are now 6 months), to see if i had a baby... It seems that once they "get you pregnant" they dont want much more to do with you. Its a bit disappointing with the amt of time you spend with them, through blood tests, scans, and heart break. You just get rolled into another number, and they drop you and send you on your way after that first HB check.
I think it would be great to have a support/parent group or even just a pg group, for those who have used IVF/fertility treatment. An IVF pg, i feel, is a very diff journey than a pregnancy that is achieved naturally. I always felt different than my pg friends, i didnt want to but i did. Even though i knew i was so lucky, i did always feel jealous of those around me who fell pregnant at the drop of a hat, even though by this time i was pregnant myself.
Sushee, i would love to think that millions of dollars would help us all, but it still doesnt change attitudes of those around us. How many times i have been asked, are they ivf?? I just wish people could have more of an understanding, and for it to not be so "not normal."
And it would be nice to have a group where we could just chat, discuss aspects of birth choices, feelings and anxieties.

Do you know,. the more i read, the more i feel that the experience of the LTTTC woman is that of the "normally conceiving" woman but MANY TIMES MAGNIFIED.

I had wanted a baby for a long time, but was not ttc because XP didn't want to. When i fell it was a complete accident, but i still felt INCREDIBLY guilty for hating morning sickness. I felt under constant duress to "love and welcome" the baby because she was an accident. When she was born and XP and i split i lost EVERYTHING. And i mean EVERYTHING. My job, my home, most of my friends, my social life, my health (having her sent my thyroid down the toilet for good) EVERYTHING. At some point i remember looking at her as i BF her and thinking "this is all i have now" and feeling desolate and simultaneously that i had WANTED this, LONGED for it, and feeling incredibly guilty for that reason.

Motherhood is so difficult in our society. It is a task we must be impeccably good at and are simultaneously utterly dismissed for.

Bx

Bec, it is so good to hear that women who conceive the natural way also tend to feel the same sorts of pressures. You have just reduced the "I am an infertile freak" feeling by many, many times.

Could it be something so simple as ALL women need to be more honest about how pregnancy, birth and parenting effects them so that LTers get a better idea that what they are feeling is NORMAL, even though it may be magnified somewhat?

BW

I definitely think honesty is something women need, but equally it needs to be balanced honesty (if i'd believed the "honest" horror birth tales i was told when i said i was having a homebirth were a true representation of how my birth would be i'd have had an epidural when the 2 lines appeared, a GA at 6months PG and not let them wake me up until DD was at LEAST 23!!!). I think places like BB have such value because women are talking and nothing is more valuable than knowledge.

I really DO think this society (UK, but also US and AUS) could learn so much from some of the rest of Europe and much of the rest of the world about how to treat mothers. Somehow parenting, rather than being the normal task of a woman or couple (and i DON'T believe infertility should mean this isn't a normal task, though i respect how abnormal the journey must feel), has become this extra-curricular activity which it's ok to do so long as it doesn't interefere with your personality, job, friendships, relationships or moods. It's ridiculous. I envy those Indonesian girls, looking forward to, embracing and celebrating what motherhood means, rather than longing for a false reality, facing a terrible crash and PRETENDING TO BE OK as we do so.

I have a friend in Germany, and last year she was at a wedding. The buffet was supposed to open at something like 3pm, but because of a million bits of the day (big traditional Old-German-Pagan(sort of) wedding) ran on it got to 6ish and my now starving breastfeeding friend ended up going and taking some food before the buffet was opened. A man commented nearby to those near him that it was nice some people were managing to wait for the buffet to open officially and my friend commented loudly back, to the general air around her, that a breastfeeding mother had to think beyond her manners AND her stomach. That man immediately apologised and was embarrassed. Can you imagine in our towns that our proclaimation of hunger due to breastfeeding would meet with such reverence!? In my city most wedding venues would have me BFing in a TOILET! Also in Germany the government provides home helps to pregnant women who need them - my friend had pre-term contractions which were painful but not (luckily) doing too much to her cervix. Her midwife ordered 2 hours rest every day and the government provided a weekly homehelp (who she found herself and gave their details to the local office to have them paid) to allow her to have it. I know another German woman who became incredibly stressed when her baby was injured, and after the baby's recovery was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. She went to stay in a home SPECIFICALLY for "stressed mothers" to have a break before she had a total breakdown. In the UK no such services exist. It's only in the last 5 years women with peurpural psychosis in this city can actually have their babies with them in hospital! Once upon a time women were kept out of sight at home, taking care of families. Then they were welcomed into the public sphere, but who is at home? Don't talk about it. You got the equality you wanted, you DEAL with it. I know, off on a feminist rant, but it makes me angry. In my estimation it takes about 3 years for opportunity to become expectation. Our societies are so verbal about choices, but where are our choices? Birth choices we're not told about, work choices which aren't real (do you want to put your kids in childcare and work, or do you want to be a SAHM in a rented shoebox and live on spam?), lifestyle choices for which there is ALWAYS a price...

Everything in our society is about appearances. Biological functions? Ride a bike, run 10k, swim 3 miles, get pregnant, give birth, breastfeed and MAKE IT LOOK EASY. Careers? Get a degree, get a job, make it a career, balance your family with it and MAKE IT LOOK EASY. Inner peace? Be fit, be thin, look good, look successful, look in control and make it look easy... We don't live behind a facade, we ARE a facade!

I think perhaps only a new revolution of feminism, new feminism, feminism that demands TRUE choices for all women and TRUE support for those decisions. Feminism that unites. Because the media only divides us, relentlessly and imaginatively it injects contention into our every decision and thus we are controlled i suppose. I guess when there are no choices women are united by similarity. With a true range of choice for women to be able to do what they really want to with their lives, we need to be united in honesty, mutual respect and compassion.

Bx

A quote from a WA public policy on substantive equality starts with the phrase, ' If you want to treat me equally, you may have to be prepared to treat me differently'.

I am always reminded of that (excellent, IMO) quote when we talk about feminism (and yes I'm aware I'm going off topic here too) but wanted to comment that I agree with it completely. Equality will only be achieved when circumstance is taken into account, and differences between sexes, races and economic levels are tackled fairly. It isn't about painting everyone with the same brush, and expecting everyone to behave in exactly the same way irregardless of circumstance.

Okay back onto the topic: I have been toying with the idea of speaking to the lady who runs the main doula service here in Perth to see if she knows of any doulas who have experienced LTTTC or m/c, or even wishes to learn more about the unique needs of the women who have.

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Bec, it is so good to hear that women who conceive the natural way also tend to feel the same sorts of pressures. You have just reduced the "I am an infertile freak" feeling by many, many times.

Could it be something so simple as ALL women need to be more honest about how pregnancy, birth and parenting effects them so that LTers get a better idea that what they are feeling is NORMAL, even though it may be magnified somewhat?

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Oh boy, BW, you don't need to feel 'different', like Bec our DD was a complete accident and because I 'chose' to have her, my DP wouldn't hear a word of complaint then (and still to some extent now) because it was my 'choice' to be a mother. Like he was somehow just carried along in this tidal wave of parenthood with no say!

Can I just say, despite having suffered depression in the past, despite an emotionally very difficult unplanned pg (altho not physically), the birth I did not want, a relationship that's still troubled, etc, etc (I'm sure you can insert your own difficulties into a list like this!) it did not make me an inadequate mother who couldn't cope. Everyone has difficulty coping sometimes for their own reasons. I didn't have trouble coping because I've had depression in the past, I had trouble coping because it's damned hard work (largely unappreciated and not supported enough!). I didn't resent being called upon by my baby when I really just wanted to sleep (and I had no right to complain apparently, since mostly she slept well) because we didn't bond immediately after birth. I resented being woken up because I quite like my sleep and I'm kinda used to it! Plus, I don't operate well when I'm tired.

It IS the same for everyone, but for LTTTCers I would imagine there's that extra layer of guilt (internal and external) that the reality of your dream should always be perfect, and if it's not, is it you?

But it'd be kinda like saying you waited 25 years to meet your husband and you have no right to complain when he annoys the ***** out of you for behaving in what might be a completely normal way for him/a man, but annoying nonetheless!

The clinic we went through was QFG, and they have a committee called "Friends of QFG" you get quarterly newsletters, with notices of meet ups for various outings (last newsletter I still have is from FEB, and it has on the front, dates for...a cuppa and a chat, play and a chat, a guys get together for men only, a yet to succeed breakfast for ladies only.
They request that babies and children are not taken along to the activites unless it is the play and chat outing.
They have email addressess in the newsletter, so you can contact other people, and a country contact section for us 'country girls' as well.

Is this something unique to QFG or do other clinics have something similiar operating?
Unfornately because we live so far from the clinic, I was unable to go to any of the events, but had I lived closer, I would have certainly taken advantage of them.

Nic

Nic, I think it's pretty unique to QFG, I've not heard of anything similar anywhere, which is a real shame. It sounds absolutely fantastic and something that is needed in many other places.

BW

monash have similar for their ivf girls but the newsletter is all about cycling. meet ups are few and far between. my paid membership expires next month so i wont renew

I have stayed in contact with the lovely clinic staff - had lunch with them a week before bub was born, and he has been back to meet those who made him. We'll keep on visiting every so often - they like to see "their" babies!

Hi
I think all those suggestions are great, i would also love some kind of education program for family and friends as there is that "well now your pregnant, get on with it attitude" My mum who has been pretty good through the whole thing really surprised me yesterday as i was saying how it was going to be such a shock to the system again getting up and down all night for feeds and she was almost annoyed with me saying something that equated to just be happy your pregnant! I think they truly need to have a firm understanding how we feel, why sometimes we want to talk other times its please can we talk about something else,, the trials of many different things e.g. family events, secondary infertility etc.

Hi all

I just stumbled on this thread, and have managed to read all of it although my eyes are now feeling like this :o !

DH and I are hoping and trying to prepare as much as we can for a VB. I'm also trying to keep an open mind, as I don't want to feel like a failure if I don't get the birth I want... But we have bought the Pink Kit and are working through that, and DH heard about this thing called Epi-No which we bought (it kind of makes me laugh, but I'll try anything). We've discussed with our Ob that we really really want a natural birth.

But the fact that we have chosen to go with an Ob in the first place already has medicalised our pregancny and birth more than going with regular midwife or birth centre care (I guess?). I actually would really prefer to be birthing in a birth centre, or even a part water birth. But being an IVFer and also being on Clexane for Factor V Leiden, I felt like I needed more continuity of care. I wanted to see the same person every visit and also someone very knowledgable. I wasn't sure I would get this as I heard with a birth centre you will see whoever is on the day you visit for a checkup.

Its true you leave your IVF clinic in such a fragile and scared state - is this baby going to stick around? am I going to miscarry? You want someone to 'hold your hand' so to speak. But I agree that this is where some kind of support group or service would be invaluable. Somewhere where we can also find out what our options are. I had been advised by my FS to go with an Ob, and I didn't even know how to find out if I was eligable for a Birth Centre model. Its also so hard to book in with an Ob of choice even at 7 weeks when you are still grappling with the idea of being pregnant, you feel slightly ridiculous booking an Ob and choosing where you will give birth!

I feel like I do trust my body to be able to birth and breastfeed, but I have no natural innocence around pregnancy and birth having been through miscarriage and IVF. Hence, I want this precious little bub watched closely, just in case.

The challenge will be to balance staying true to our wishes of a natural birth with trusting the Ob to do her job. I guess its our responsibility to educate ourselves as much as possible. And then, just hope and trust - it got us this far didn't it!