Why do LTTTCers seem to prefer a c/s?

That's a great post from a different prespective, Bx.

I agree it may not be something we can ultimately over-ride, but honestly, I don't think that anyone's tried, at least no one I've come across. I mean, I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice that there is very little accessible support for women who 'graduate' from being LTTTC to being pregnant, and then to being mothers. It's something I've personally noticed, and something I've become quite passionate about - IVFers need support not only during trying to conceive, they should have access to support during their pregnancies, and through the early years of motherhood.

I know some women believe that, once pregnant, there is no difference between a woman who conceived naturally and a woman who conceived via AC after many many years of struggling with infertilty. I don't agree. I think you cannot go through such a life-changing event such as LTTTC and not be affected by it. So why do we as a society essentially ignore these same effects simply because the woman is now pregnant?

Now I'm not saying that there should be support for IVFers to the exclusion of other pg women. I think all women should have as much accessible support as they require. But I do think LTTTCers have unique needs that aren't being met.

This is a common theme among pg LTTTCers, and women who become mothers after LTTTC - they feel isolated and think their feelings of guilt, distress and anxiety is something to be ashamed of. They currently don't have the opportunity to work through those issues, mostly they don't even talk about it. They somehow believe that admitting that they aren't 100% ecstatic 100% of the time will mean they aren't 'deserving' of their good fortune of finaly having success.

And yes, I don't know if support programs, or even starting to discuss the topic in this way, where everyone contributes ideas, will make a difference to the way a woman feels in the long run - certainly whether it will make any difference in the relatively short period between conception and birth. But I want to try. I want to start talking about it. I want to bring it out of the shadows.

Just here on BB I feel like we're starting to talk honestly about how LTTTC affects the way we make choices in pregnancy, and influences the way we parent. So I hope, if nothing else, if allows LTers to continue talking about these sorts of issues.

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So why do we as a society essentially ignore these same effects simply because the woman is now pregnant?

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I think that's just an extension of the GENERAL view in our society of childbearing. We should do it, yes, but we shouldn't talk about it. We shouldn't let it "change" us or our lives, we should be back at work ASAP and showing no outward signs of anything having changed. The attitude i felt i was faced with was "Have a baby, but for goodness sake, shut up about it!" If this is the attitude to a normal woman, who had little out of the ordinary she needed to talk about, what would be the experience of an LTTTC woman, who went through SO SO much to get pregnant?

Bx

Oh I agree completely with you there Bx! I sometimes feel like it's this mountain almost impossible to climb. If an average, fertile woman finds it hard to get support or information about birth choices or BFing or just the emotional aspect of being pg or a new mum, what chance do LTTTCers have?

But I figure we can start small, with an idea, and work from there. Call me an optimist. :)

Sushee i definately wasnt implying anyone on here had done that, i love BB for that very reason and trust me it is the complete opposite for most forums. I did want to support Nixon though as i have tried to find support elsewhere and been pummeled for even suggesting that i might want a CS rather than risk incontinence issues and it is linked with LTTTC. I feel like i have been a complete failure not being able to concieve naturally only to be hammered and made to feel guilty for considering a cs, which i know is a completely different topic and maybe belongs in another thread but i was really happy to see CS discussed in terms of AC as it does shine a whole new light on the subject. I am very aware that these are my own issues to deal with and i find the whole CS thing a very touchy subject with many issues that i only have about 12 weeks to work through:doh: even though (as Hoobley will atest too :lol:)i have been trying to work out for a really long time. Apologies for the thread hi jack

Sushee, I think part of the problem is that many of us have had years to learn all there is to learn about how to get pregnant and stay pregnant. But we don't look into what comes next at all because that's putting the cart before the horse and is way too scary.

The research on how to actually deal with pregnancy and birth happens once you are there, and if you have endured losses, probably not until much later! For me, it wasn't until I was feeling Munchkin move regularly at around 22 weeks that I came out of denial and actually admitted that a birth was going to happen at the end of this. This gives me a matter of weeks to become as familiar with birth as I was with IVF. Of course, being the perfectionist and compulsive researcher that I am, I feel I need to know as much about one as the other... But at a few days off 28 weeks I'm still not yet completely out of denial and the research still isn't happening. To me, it's no wonder that women in this situation are content to sit back and trust their OB - because it all seems too hard! We have a deadline now that was never there before...

It's also becoming blatantly obvious to me that I'm just not like other pregnant women. There are another 5 pregnant women at work at the moment and all are content and happy to talk about their pregnancies with everyone - including the students. It's not just a peculiarity to my personality and teaching style that as soon as a student wants to question me about my pregnancy that I squash the conversation ASAP and get everyone back to work. The number of times I've heard "but Mrs XXX told us..." I'm the same in baby shops and with strangers - I only seem to want to talk to my close friends about being pregnant and would be so much happier if everyone else could just ignore the bump - not so easy now that it's too big to ignore!

And just last night I was reading an article about how IVF teenagers are more aggressive and more prone to behavioural problems because their parents tend to be more indulgent... but that's a topic for another thread!

BW

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Sushee, I think part of the problem is that many of us have had years to learn all there is to learn about how to get pregnant and stay pregnant. But we don't look into what comes next at all because that's putting the cart before the horse and is way too scary.

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I can certainly relate to that!

Great topic Sushee. You have managed to raise something that doesn't get spoken about because it seems once you fall pg after IVF either you are expected to just get on and have a pg like any other 'natural pg' or alternatively are monitored to the max to ensure the little mite(s) are still there and doing well for our own sanity's sake. Most of my friend's natural pg's don't seem to be monitored half as much as those I know who have fallen pg through IVF. Yet are the risks any higher for an IVF pg than a natural one?

I hope you don't mind me putting my two cents in when I am clearly not pg and I know that I don't always react or respond the way I think I will when faced with the reality. So this may be a moot point.

I have always always thought I will have a VB and minimal intervention (if I can mentally cope with it) throughout a pg. People around me are always amazed that I don't want an OB to monitor my pg and that I am happy for a midwife/GP guided pg, after all this time and effort we have gone through to fall pg. They wonder shouldn't we ensure we have the absolute best ongoing and continual care available?

I think as I am using an egg donor the chance to experience a natural birth and share that experience with our bub is now even more important to me than it was when I was doing IVF myself. I want to have all the connection I can possibly have to my baby. I feel I have failed on the egg front but by golly I want to do what I was born to do - grunt, groan, suffer and birth my baby! A real physical suffering after all these years of mental suffering (and some physical) mostly for naught, would be simply fantastic IMO.

Everything is so medicalised with regards to IVF conception that I would love a medical intervention free pg and birth if it is possible. The fact that VB is a safer option than a C/S is just the icing on the cake for my decision. I think even if it were the other way around I would have to go the VB as long as there was no strong medical reason not to.

I hope that I get to test my belief and feelings out one day! ;)

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IVFers need support not only during trying to conceive, they should have access to support during their pregnancies, and through the early years of motherhood.

I know some women believe that, once pregnant, there is no difference between a woman who conceived naturally and a woman who conceived via AC after many many years of struggling with infertilty. I don't agree. I think you cannot go through such a life-changing event such as LTTTC and not be affected by it. So why do we as a society essentially ignore these same effects simply because the woman is now pregnant?

This is a common theme among pg LTTTCers, and women who become mothers after LTTTC - they feel isolated and think their feelings of guilt, distress and anxiety is something to be ashamed of. They currently don't have the opportunity to work through those issues, mostly they don't even talk about it. They somehow believe that admitting that they aren't 100% ecstatic 100% of the time will mean they aren't 'deserving' of their good fortune of finaly having success.

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Soooooo true!! A lot of you will know that I struggled for a while after bringing DS home, I suffered from shocking anxiety which began the first week home and ended in a series of panic attacks that I needed treatment for in the end. All is GREAT now, but those early weeks weren't much fun at all (and how guilty do I feel even saying that??!!). The birth went fine, he was safe, he was HERE and then everyone just figured I'd get on with it. I do think the lack of sleep contributed but the expectations I'd placed on myself and this poor little baby soon became sooooo overwhelming and I didn't feel like I had any right to express this - I'd fallen prg, I had my beautiful healthy baby, everything was 'fixed' now right?? Wrong.

I had a different TTC journey to most - I have a genetic condition, and wanted to use PGD to not pass it on. The counselling/test development phase was years of waiting. We conceived first try when we eventually got there.
That process was one where trusting the experts to do their jobs well was the only approach that was possible.

We then carried that approach through to my pregnancy - so when my obstetrician said to me that unless my baby had turned head-down by 38 weeks a CS was the safest option that's what we did. I didn't start out wanting a CS - we were wanting to avoid it, since surgery isn't my favourite thing.

I''m just a lurker, so my points are not from someone who is a LTTTCer or using AC. So I'll be extra careful in what I say!

Firstly, the idea that c/s is safer abounds for most pg women (who knows why?). In our antenatal class when we were discussing c/s, etc, we had to nominate points to go against each birthing option (pros and cons), for vb, c/s, drugs, etc, and when I suggested c/s wasn't as safe for mother or baby both the m/w and the class were HORRIFIED that I could bring this up. Which is ironic, because at the time with my placenta praevia it looked like I'd be the one most likely to go down that path... (and did, much to my disappointment). My ob also mentioned that older women and those who'd taken longer to get to pg were the ones most likely to request a c/s. Not something he endorsed.

I also wondered if it might not have something to do with using a specialist? If you've seen a FS and you don't want to be left hanging with no one paying any attention to this hard-won pg, the idea of waiting weeks and weeks to see someone might lead many down the path of an ob? Also seeing the one person probably appeals, given that there have been so many specialists and drs involved and I imagine not all of them good! Plus, you are probably talking about a group of mothers-to-be with private health insurance who are looking into private hospitals. And we all know that obs and private hospitals have higher rates of c/s. Personally, I think one of the reasons this is the case is that these options are more readily available (I read in a recent study for eg that women in private hospitals were more likely to have an epi simply because an anaesthetist was likely to be able to respond more quickly than in a public hospital, not because they were more likely to ask, and then, the intervention cascade thing occurs...).

Just my two cents!

I think that Jennifer, you make such a great observation - most IVFers do end up using an ob. And using an ob usually equals higher rates of intervention. BW, you make an even more pertinent point - I remember too being pregnant and refusing to buy anything for baby until I was well past 20 weeks. For many IVFers, planning for baby, let alone birth earlier than that is almost taboo, isn't it? Which then makes the time to think and plan for birth even shorter.

So what do we try to overcome first? The 'disconnection' women feel from their pregnancy early on? I'd love to know how. I have regular had conversations with pg LTTTCers who are so anxious in the first half of their pgs that they virtually become recluses, refusing to talk about their pgs because it all feels too fragile to discuss freely or feeling stuck between being happy at their good fortune and guilt that the many women they have loved and supported have not been as lucky.

I know when I was newly pg, what I really would have appreciated was someone telling me what I was feeling so damned normal for an LTTTCer. It is such a common thing for LTTTCers to feel! But when I participated in the PGALTTTC threads, everyone talked about anxiety, yes, or scans and ob visits, but no one spoke about how damaged emotionally and psychologically we'd become as a result of the process of being LTTTC (and let me qualify - not all LTTTCers feel this way, but I did and I know many women do).

Since having Charlie this is something I've tried to address. First with the social group, but whle the group has had some amazing conversations, I've still felt that there is this MASSIVE area of support missing - and that's for those post-LTTTC.

What would help PALTTTC and Parenting after LTTTC women grapple with their isolation? And assist them towards doing the research, making the decisions, learning to find control over their bodies again? I don't know if there is an easy answer to hose questions. It's all I've been thinking about for days now. :)

Also wanted to also address a few things:

Firstly while I have focussed the issue of a lack of support for birth choices/BFing for LTTTCers specifically, I personally have appreciated all the comments and posts from those who are not LTTTC but care enough about women in general to wish to help contribute their ideas.

Secondly, I hope this thread speaks not just to LTTTCers who have 'graduated' but assists those still TTCing to recognise and acknowledge these issues long before they 'graduate'. In that respect, I'm thrilled that someone like dusty has posted, which shows she's thinking about these issues now, and it becomes less taboo in the long run.

Thirdly, scooby, I know I seemed to come down hard on words like 'ridicule and 'forcing' but it's because I've seen sooooo many threads started with the best of intentions degenerate to slagging threads about c/s vs VB, or BFing vs FFing. It's gotten so that members become almost too scared to mention any of those things, yet if we don't talk about these things, the information doesn't get out there, and women feel yet more isolated and uninformed.

I understand it's an emotive topic, so emotive in fact that it's getting to be that if you try to talk about VB being safer, or BFing being better for baby (and these are facts supported by evidence, true even if you're not trying to be pro-anything) you're almost gauranteed someone is going post something that will start to skew the topic into yet another us vs them scenario, whether intentionally or not. And yet when I speak about IVFers, I don't see any 'us and them', to me, we're all 'us' and I want the kind of support and services that is best for 'us'.

Before I started this thread, I told myself I wasn't going to let this thread become divided and angry. It's about finding solutions, not persecuting anyone's choices. So I'm nipping it in the bud early. I completely understand Nixon and your posts, they are legitimate opinions, based on experiences here or elsewhere. They are just off-topic for this thread, and I am requesting that everyone stay on topic so that this thread doesn't become a c/s vs VB thread. So it's all good, hun. I'm just being extra fussy about that, is all.

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I also wondered if it might not have something to do with using a specialist? If you've seen a FS and you don't want to be left hanging with no one paying any attention to this hard-won pg, the idea of waiting weeks and weeks to see someone might lead many down the path of an ob? Also seeing the one person probably appeals, given that there have been so many specialists and drs involved and I imagine not all of them good!

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This was the case for me

I remember being so excited when those 2 lines came up on the stick, and when DH hugged me we were both shaking. When we had our first scan around 6 weeks and saw the heartbeat, DH was just so proud, but me, I was like "Oh, ok, there it is" I didn't feel connected at all.

I don't think I bought anything for quite a while too. DH was the one pushing for nappy bags and clothes. We put a change table on layby about 3 and half months before DS was due lol! And that was only because DH picked it up and walked off with it.

I too didn't like chatting to people about my pregnancy. My IL's were shockers, they were forever talking about friends of my BIL who had success with IVF, but how the mum was dissapointed it was 1 baby after they had 2 embryos put back, and how she should have been appreciative. I copped flack from my MIL when I tried to share my feelings on how I was worried about doing the injections, her supportive words were "I don't understand, if you want a baby, you just do it" (the injections)
You know, I was at my happiest with my pregnancy when i was either chatting to DH about DS, or he had his hand on my tummy, and also when i was chatting here on BB.

After DS was born, I posted in the parenting after LTTTC, about how he was so full on with not sleeping, screaming and wanting to be held all the time, how I felt bad after what we went through to have him and I was wishing he would just be quiet.
Willow replied with a beautiful post - as did the other girls :) - that made me cry ( happy tears though) it was nice to know that I was feeling normal, and it was ok. I think we feel like we can't be seen like we are being unappreciative of our IVF babies, afterall, this is what we wanted wasn't it? (Thanks MIL)

Anyway, I think I've babbled on for long enough

Nic

Fantastic post, Nic :clap:

We're just gearing up now for cycle #5... and I'M TERRIFIED.

NOT for the cycle part, not even for the 'will it work, if not, here we go again part'... but for the part that if it DOES work, at what point will I finally accept it?

Since BG & BW both got their long awaited BFP's, I've followed along with support both on here & through sms & phonecalls... but I equally feel their hesitation & fear as to each day and the insecurity of 'when can I finally relax & enjoy this' (I hope you girls don't mind me using you as an example... just that you two are the most current ones ATM ;))

I'm feeling the exact same emotions as they are - but about myself - and I haven't even got the BFP yet :rolleyes:

I completely understand where Dusty is at... and I thank you, too, Sushee for this thread ;) because its allowed me to think about something that I've been 'filing for another day' for a long time now.

Seeing as how we're about to embark on a new cycle, I need to start getting my head around things, too - I could have written Dusty's post myself!

Personally it never crossed my mind that c/s would have been a safer option for the birth of my DD. In the end it turned out that her heart rate dropped and I had to have an emergency c/s but my intention throughout my pg was to have a VB with as little intervention as possible.

This pregnancy was also an AC and once again I'd love a VB but if a healthy baby means another c/s then I'll be happy to do whatever it takes.

When it comes down to it, all we've ever wanted was to have a healthy baby in our arms but we never during pregnancy really considered one birthing option over another as being safer. I really think I would have felt the same way even if I wasnt a LTTTCer.

Holly, I'm on the edge of 28 weeks, I have Munchkin wiggling away and feet in my ribs... and I still don't think I've fully accepted that this is happening and is real!

One thing that I have noticed is that "normal" pregnant women - ones who haven't taken years, used IVF and endured losses are allowed to complain about morning sickness, are allowed to feel disappointment at the gender of their child, are allowed to complain about getting no sleep because the baby has kicked all night and kept them awake, are allowed to grizzle and grumble about rib pain and the fact that they are starting to waddle and not walk...

And then those of us that have endured a tougher journey get comments like "but this is what you wanted", "you worked so hard for this, surely that means something?", "shouldn't you just be thankful that you're having a baby at all?", and I could probably go on, and I'm sure others can add a lot.

People seem to forget that pregnancy is damned uncomfortable and I think it's unusual for someone to enjoy (I mean really ENJOY, not just enjoy the reality of what it means) being pregnant.

I couldn't get people to understand that I loved the fact that I was pregnant, but I hated feeling so sick. I loved my baby no matter what, but there was a stage where I'd have preferred a girl. That I love the reassurance of kicks, but wish Munchkin would be quieter at times or get his feet out of my ribs or stop smashing my bladder, or simply let me simply sit the way I want without carrying on like I've stuffed a mad cat in a hessian sack!

I loved what those things mean... but it doesn't mean I love actually feeling them.

There is the attitude that others can complain, but long-termers, IVFers etc must enjoy every single moment of being pregnant, keep smiling and never ever complain because they went through so much to get here.

If anything, I think the dream of pregnancy has been idealised by us, and it's a huge, hard crash when we start to realise the realities of morning sickness, fatigue, etc, etc.

From what Nic and Willow have said, this doesn't change once the baby is in your arms.

I think I've forgotten where I was going with this! :doh:

I suspect all of that leads to a feeling of needing a specialist, etc - all those things which have been pinpointed as tending to lead towards a c-section. That not only is there a reluctance among long-termers to talk about their pregnancies with people who haven't shared the experience, but there's an attitude amongst others that prevents us from speaking about things honestly and openly.

How can we go into birth as a "normal pregnant woman" when we don't feel like one and aren't treated like one by the world around us?

BW

Brilliant post BW!! I really identify with everything you said.

I have found that I beat myself up for thinking those things, think that I should be so grateful for everything (and I am very grateful to be pg), but you're right - sometimes pregnancy is just hard, and we should be able to have all our feelings acknowledged, even the negative ones.

Really good point too about not having much time to prepare for birth, when you only just start to accept that you might have a baby after you're 20 weeks plus. I am amazed when I see posts about women looking for doulas etc. when they're a few weeks pg, for me I couldn't even contemplate anything other than miscarriage as an end result for at least the first 15 weeks of my pregnancy. I still can't quite believe that it's probably going to work out fine :crossfingers:

I'm quite torn between feeling like a 'normal' pg woman who should be able to have a low-intervention birth, and being utterly terrified that something is going to go wrong - sometimes I feel like I'm just waiting for the axe to fall. I think that's why I'm sticking with my ob and private hospital, but also having a doula and being very clear about my birth preferences if all is going well. I'm trying to balance my optimism and my fear.

BW and Devon...just wanted to say thank you for your wonderful posts. I've been finding it so hard to put into words how I'm feeling and you've both said it...exactly spot on!

just leading back to the original question though, because I've been thinking about this so much lately I'm getting brain drain. :)

What sorts of services, support networks or information, as a pg LTTTCer (or future pg LTTTCers), would you like to see out there for you? How do we make other pg and parent LTTTCers know they're not alone?

How do we get the message out to women that they need to take back control of their choices, as far as post-LTTTC matters go, such as making informed decisions about their birth, or the way they feed their baby, or the way they parent? Because being infertile/subfertile and the effects of it doesn't just go away when you get that BFP.

Let's pretend I've got a million dollars and an army of counsellors and any other resources at hand, what support would YOU ask me to provide to help you through this? To just be able to speak and have someone listen to what you're saying? To not feel isolated anymore? To have someone work through those deep, dark issues that everyone seems to scared to talk about?

So that you CAN make choices about birth, feeding and parenting that isn't completely influenced by your fear and your anxiety?