Private schools used for cultural quarantine

I think its quite possible hell has frozen over..........

I have to agree with N2L.

Our eldest (and the other two eventually) are attending a catholic school up here. Catholic schools and private schools are two different things for me. We chose the school for a few reasons.
1. It was alot smaller than the zoned public school for our area (400 vs 3000).
2. I felt that the school upheld values, morals and a sense of community that is a little less evident in the public schools up here.
3. They were more accomodating in our interest in the school for our special needs child. The public school didnt even ask on their application if your child has special needs. Our school has already set in motion the preparations for our autistic son to attend prep next year and its only Term 1 (and our eldest has only just started prep!)


The catch 22 for our school is quite ironic. It is a little-known catholic school in a very low socio-economic part of our town. Alot of people dont even realise its there. And those that do, some refuse to use it based on postcode. Even though its 'selective' of the students that attend, as are all religious and private education avenues. They have a large mix of students; all from different backgrounds and cultures. Not all are from middle or upper class families. I personally love that about our school. They teach a very tolerant and giving attitude to the kids.

Interesting article though. I would have thought that the opposite would be true and the children from multicultural backgrounds would be more likely to attend private school.

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I think there is such a thing as socio-economic cultural quarantining to protect your kids from bogans.

Nothing to do with race whatsoever.

It is likely my DD will go to a private school because most of the public secondary schools in this area are full of ferals.

Am I quarantining her from their influence? Absolutely.

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we were thinking along these lines - very seriously - but then i got to spending some time with a few of the parents of kids at the school - and they are simply rich bogans instead of poor. horrible, judgmental pieces of work and i seriously don't want DD around that kind of attitude - so i'm at a loss again!!

our local primary school has a very bad reputation. we live in a great area, but feed into the school that services the Bronx - the lowest socio economic group in town. as much as i'd like to say it doesn't enter my thoughts, it does. so we thought about private school. and then got exposure to the "rich bogans" (as coined by another friend with a kidlet the same age) - so we're back in limbo!!

it's not racially motivated (i honestly couldn't tell you the racial breakdown through the schools here) - it's motivated by trying to have DD in the best educational environment possible

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I have my reasons & I do what I feel is best for MY kids

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That was my point - everyone has their reasons and do what they feel best for their children, of course, that's natural (or it should be). Just as those mentioned in the study deemed as racist for choosing the type of schooling to 'avoid' other cultures....I was trying to make the observation that we all make choices based on specific reasons - how those choices are judged by others can label us a certain way. Whether that label is fair or truthful is another matter.

Clover, I'm not dissing your choices :) I'm just saying that the irony of the situation is that sometimes people think they are getting something better just because they are paying for it or it's private/exclusive etc, but the reality is that it may be no different at all except they have a higher disposable income.

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I think its quite possible hell has frozen over..........

I have to agree with N2L.

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Not only that, but you made me laugh :lol:

(ps. I'm not all bad ;) )

Sorry ausgirl - your post did make me feel like you thought I was a moron. I feel like I didn't succeed in highschool because of the crowd I hung around. I dropped out, fell pregnant... & here I am.

There's probably a 99% chance my kids will go the same way I did, but I'm going to do everything I can to avoid that. I'm trying to get them to understand that education is important. I'm doing everything I can to help them do better than I did.

I don't know if I'm doing it right or not, but I'm doing my best :)

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Actually lots of schools with higher migrant density are high performing schools. It is the case in WA, where 2 of the top 5 state schools are situated in high immigrant populations. Migrants don't automatically translate to lower performance in school, nor do they always equate to lower socio-economic areas. So to say that parents don't send their kids to a high migrant density school because of lower performance doesn't actually stack up.

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this is true in Melbourne too. my mum and sister work in two of the best performing public schools in the state. about 2/3 of students in these schools are immigrants.

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my reasons for wanting a private education for my kids have nothing to do with race/immigrants, in fact i think its good for kids to learn about other cultures.

I agree with freya, catholic/religious and private schools are very different things to me too.

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Actually lots of schools with higher migrant density are high performing schools. It is the case in WA, where 2 of the top 5 state schools are situated in high immigrant populations. Migrants don't automatically translate to lower performance in school, nor do they always equate to lower socio-economic areas. So to say that parents don't send their kids to a high migrant density school because of lower performance doesn't actually stack up.

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My point is that this study does not take account of NAPLAN scores. That, to me, makes it a pointless study because it is not even considering the possibility that people are choosing private schools because their local schools have lower NAPLAN scores. That's not for you or I to decide, that's for the study to find out. Of course, a migrant school population does not AUTOMATICALLY mean a lower performing school, I don't believe I said that.

By the by, our local fancy schmancy private school has crap NAPLAN scores compared to our old public school in Melbourne. Our local private school would be 99% white, our old public school in Melbourne was much more racially diverse. I prefer the lifestyle and upbringing I can give my girls here, I prefer the secondary schooling I could have given them in their high-achieving, racially diverse inner Melbourne school. Them's the breaks.

I'm sick of people talking about the NAPLAN tests like they ****ing mean something!!! The NAPLAN tests are done on 2 days of the child's life every TWO YEARS!! They are a snapshot of what is going on for those kids on THOSE TWO DAYS!! And only in Numeracy, Literacy, spelling and writing. They do not take other KLA areas into account, they do not take into account that some schools make the kids sit practice exam after practice exam so they get a good mark on the day, they do not allow for other typs of intelligence that kids may have. If people had half a clue they would realise that the NAPLAN tests are practically meaningless except to tell you how your child and your child only is performing across those 4 areas. Anyone who chooses a school even remotely influenced by the NAPLAN results of that school is foolish.

It's the only thing we have though. How else can we compare the academic achievements of schools?

OMG that is so ignorant! It SHOULD NEVER be used as a method of comparision between two schools!! That is NOT what the tests were designed for - that's the Government that decided that against the advice of every educator in the country. The tests were a diagnostic tool to be used in conjunction with all other assessments of the child throughout the year. Some schools are also able to withdraw children from the test with special needs/disbilities if they think that they will bring the school average down. What do you think people used to do before they had the NAPLAN to compare schools? The NAPLAN has not been around forever and only recently has it been used as a standardised test. Take the town I live in for example. The public school where my kids go has just under 300 students. The local catholic school has only 80 students. The catholic school always slightly outperforms the public school but they have an average of 10 students per year grade compared to 50 at the public school. They also have no ESL students (english as second language), no Indigenous students, have a higher socio economic status, and no special needs kids, whereas the public school has ESL kids, Indigenous kids, low income kids and special needs kids. BUT, to a person from out of town who is looking to move to the area and wants to check out the schools is going to get a totally wrong comparision of those two schools.

Here's a novel idea - actually go and visit the schools, talk to the principal, ask what programs they use for maths and literacy and how do they help children achieve their full potential and help those who need extra help, ask how the kids perform over the course of the year, read the annual school report, find out how much funding they direct towards buying resources for the school. Don't just sit in front of a computer looking at the bloody myschool website!

My kids are not in school yet so forgive my so-called ignorance. However, my understanding is that the Myschool website allows you to compare like with like, taking into account the socioeconomic background and other factors such as special needs kids.

The NAPLAN scores obviously don't take that into account but the Myschool website does and allows you to see how a school rates per se then how it rates against similar schools.

I have no idea what people used to do to compare schools before NAPLAN and the Myschool website. Perhaps you would care to fill me in, unless that was meant to be a rhetorical question. Wasn't that why Julia Gillard pushed so hard to introduce it - so that parents could compare. Obviously any test is flawed, but it does allow you to have a bit of a clue.

And for the record, I happen to think that numeracy, literacy, spelling and writing (note I have removed some of your capitalisation) are actually quite important, especially in primary years.

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It's the only thing we have though. How else can we compare the academic achievements of schools?

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In short, you can't. Not a satisfactory answer I'm afraid :( There are soooo many variables that affect a schools (or more specifically students within that schools) academic performance. No one test can ever measure or represent those. Academic performance is also (in my opinion) only a part of what is important when choosing a school. Some schools also skew their results by leaving out many lower ability students (they are exempted or don't attend on the day) My school has fairly average NAPLAN results but an amazing rep for sport, performing arts, public speaking, as well as pastoral care of students, retention of at risk kids etc. I hate the fact that a single test doesn't take any of that into account. We also take all comers from a fairly low socio economic area with low education levels in our parent community. Even grouping us with "like" schools doesn't truly represent our cohort. We have students who do amazingly well academically, those who show amazing growth and improvement and others who...don't. Not always due to their school/class/teachers...

Sorry, I'm really only responding to the last few posts, not the overall thread :hide:

The Govt pushed for it to happen against advice. It is as useless as the grocerywatch website. It wasn't meant as a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely interested to know what you think parents used to use to compare schools. You cannot compare two schools using NAPLAN results and it is ridiculous to think that you can.

Read Marilyn Parkers blog and you'll find out why the NAPLAN should not be used in this way.

ETA - well of course those areas are important and possibly the most important areas of learning, but they are not the ONLY areas, and that is what people are misguidingly basing decisions on. I totally agree with Amaunet on this one. The school that we are intending to send DS to for high school is an agricultural high school because that is where his interests lie - we are not concerned as much about their records for literacy and numeracy as we are their development of agriculture and the NAPLAN doesn't take that into account, so it would be a total waste of time to even look at their NAPLAN results.

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My kids are not in school yet so forgive my so-called ignorance. However, my understanding is that the Myschool website allows you to compare like with like, taking into account the socioeconomic background and other factors such as special needs kids.

The NAPLAN scores obviously don't take that into account but the Myschool website does and allows you to see how a school rates per se then how it rates against similar schools.

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But this really only works if the schools, you, the website viewer, are comparing are similar iykwim. Otherwise its meaningless! Comparing a private school who can select their student and a public school who takes everyone (as this is often the comparison made) is going to be blatantly unfair...

That's OK. I'm not saying that I would look solely at the NAPLAN results, that would be nuts. But it would be a factor in my overall decision.

As for Trillian's point about talking to teachers about their approach .... yeah, great, I'll do all that. But I know that what sounds great, often ain't great. Friends whose boys both have speech development issues were given great reassurances by our childcare centre about what plan they would put in place for their boys. Sounded fabulous. Didn't happen. So I see Myschool as another tool in helping decide. Not the be all and end all, just another tool.

But if their needs weren't being met as they promised they would be, why weren't they in there getting something done about it. You cannot be passive when it comes to things like this, especially with kids who have higher needs. The way you say that about it not always working out when you talk to them, that's when you have to hold them to account for it and make them do the right thing by your kids. And a childcare centre is completely and without a doubt completely different and uncomparable to a school - it's a daycare centre, not a preschool!

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Sorry ausgirl - your post did make me feel like you thought I was a moron. I feel like I didn't succeed in highschool because of the crowd I hung around. I dropped out, fell pregnant... & here I am.

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Sorry if that's how it came across, that wasn't my intention at all and I certainly don't think you're a moron!

I imagine before Myschool came in that parents used to rely a lot on the opinions of their fellow parents. Which is fair enough.

Personally, I like John Fleming's approach and will probably be questioning DD1's proposed school on the points that he raises regarding a phonics approach to reading, teacher-led learning and expectation-raising. But I'll also be looking at their NAPLAN results. So shoot me.

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But if their needs weren't being met as they promised they would be, why weren't they in there getting something done about it. You cannot be passive when it comes to things like this, especially with kids who have higher needs. The way you say that about it not always working out when you talk to them, that's when you have to hold them to account for it and make them do the right thing by your kids. And a childcare centre is completely and without a doubt completely different and uncomparable to a school - it's a daycare centre, not a preschool!

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You've completely missed my point. You mentioned that a good way of gauging how good a school is would be to talk to the teachers. I'm saying that talking to someone is not the be all and end all. Talk is cheap. They could make it sound like their style of teaching is the most wonderful in the universe. It doesn't mean that it is. And yes, I'm aware that a childcare centre is completely different to a school. Again, my point was about the difference between what someone says and the reality.

I'm not going to shoot you, but my point is that far too much credit is given towards the NAPLAN results when talking about choosing schools, and it's not directed at you personally Fiona :) I think you will find that a lot of schools are moving towards using THRASS instead of Jolly Phonics and I think you will find that most schools err towards child-led learning and children actively participate in their educations instead of sitting there passively rote learning.

Never heard of THRASS but will have a read. Yes, most schools go towards child-led learning. John Fleming thinks that's a bit nuts and his results are pretty amazing.

I would think on the teacher versus child-led thing that a mix of both would be sensible.

In terms of phonics vs whole word thing, I learnt the phonics way, I'll need to be convinced that the whole word way works better.

I'm not taking your points personally Trillian though I do think that calling someone's viewpoint "ignorant' is a bit OTT and devalues the points that you are raising.

One of the collegues at work wrote a scathing article against the my schools webpage... it's basically crap and not worth the paper it's written on.

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though I do think that calling someone's viewpoint "ignorant' is a bit OTT and devalues the points that you are raising.

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That's a matter of opinion :) I don't think it is OTT at all. I do think it is ignorant when too much emphasis is placed on these tests by people who don't have kids in school and who don't really know what the NAPLAN is all about - again not pointed at you directly at all, but generally speaking far too much media is given to the importance of these tests and *we've* all come to think that they are the be all and end all when it comes to how good a school is.

Back when I was at school we did the same test, only it was called the "Basic Skills Test' and it covered the same areas, but it was never ever used as a comparison tool. Then they brought out the standardised NAPLAN test and the Govt thought it would be a great idea to earn brownie points by using it as a school comparison tool.

Just because someone factors the NAPLAN tests into their thinking doesn't mean they think they're the be all and end all.

Anyhow, I think we can agree to disagree :)

I think we can :) I missed your post about the childcare centre. Talk may seem cheap, but this is why it is important to keep yourself in the loop when you have kids in school. If they tell you that yes, we can cater for these kids, make sure that they do. Ultimately there is no sure fire 100% perfect way of finding out how great a school is. Some may look great on paper and tick all the boxes, but their school ethos could be crap. I would not send my kids to half of the private schools in this country because of the way they reek of white privilege and nurture the patriarchy and misogynistic views on life, but on paper they are fantastic schools. So that's why you have to be an involved parent nd make sure that once your kids are there that it is still the right school for them.

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But this really only works if the schools, you, the website viewer, are comparing are similar iykwim. Otherwise its meaningless! Comparing a private school who can select their student and a public school who takes everyone (as this is often the comparison made) is going to be blatantly unfair...

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Sorry to harp on, but people aren't really that stupid that they would fail to understand the unfairness of a comparison between a private and public school, are they?

The very first thing I would look at would be the socioeconomic breakdown for the parents of a particular school on the site, especially if I wanted to compare the results of two dissimilar schools. I find it fascinating, for instance, that out our local public school, according to the My School website, has parents from a higher socioeconomic demographic than our local private school. Our local public school ranks very highly compared to other SIMILAR schools. I've been to the school, I've met some of the teachers, I've met some of the pupils. I've talked to other parents who all say it's great. But I love it that I'm able to get some hard-nosed data via the website. School revolves around tests. That's life.

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One of the collegues at work wrote a scathing article against the my schools webpage... it's basically crap and not worth the paper it's written on.

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Link? Unless it's your friend's article that's not worth the paper it's written on :p

The comparisons on the MySchools website are crap. The school my boys go to is pretty much a one of a kind. There are other bi-lingual schools in the ACT but they use different methodology and bi-lingual schools in other states that use the same methodology have a different socio-econimic profile and have English streams as well. Because they are being educated in 2 languages there is an expectation that until about year 3 they will be behind mono-lingually educated children in some areas. This is reflected in their NAPLN scores but there is nowhere on the MySchools website that explains that under the teaching methodology this is an expected outcome. Most of the schools they are compared to are mono-lingual schools with a similar demographic profile and totally different learning methods.

MySchool makes no mention of bullybusting programs, sustainability, chooks, vege gardens, arts programs, sporting opportunities and all the other things that count.

Maybe that's because in this world, it's exam results that count and not if you went to a sustainable school? Just a thought.

My son currently attends a multiculti, low sociodemograph area school. We are moving him to another school next week. The new one is more local - but doesn't have a 5yo bully tormenting other children while the teachers do nothing about it (unless the vicar's son is the local bully, but he got on well enough with Liebling when they played together). Nothing to do with immigrant cultures (the child in question is caucasian), in fact I'm happy DS is exposed to other cultures, I think it's good for him.

As for senior school - I would like him to go private. They generally get better results, the local ones have lower rates of bullying and the old boys associations are a force to be reckoned with. I'm happy for him to go to a multiculti school, but I want the best for my child and that means, right now, a private education. Cos that means good exam results, building self-esteem, better chance at a "good" Uni and therefore a helping hand on the job market. Priviledge? Gosh yes. But it's there, so why not take advantage if you can?

In my world being a responsible member of society who is kind to others and gives back to their community is more important than exam results. Most happiness studies seem to demonstrate that happy people are people who are connected with their community and that more joy is derived from kindness to others and experiences than from possessions.

I don't give a fig what exam results a school gets if it can't demonstrate that it is interested in helping students to grow into decent human beings and ensuring that they are happy at school.

Not to mention that children learn more about the life cycle of plants and nutrition by growing and eating veges than by sitting a science exam.

See I don't think the fact that you can't compare a one-of-a-kind school makes the My School website crap. If there's not another apple, then you can't compare apples. It just means that if you see a school's NAPLAN results you can raise it with them and give them the opportunity for an explanation. I'd much rather address that before enrolling my child than finding out later.

If you gave me a choice between a school that produced a well-rounded, contributor to society compared to a school with great exam results that produced selfish individuals of course I'd go for the former but I don't think it's so black and white in most instances. I think most of us are looking for a balance. If two schools produce similar exam results but one has values that align better with my own, then I'd choose that one.

My own schools, I think, produced great, kind, salt-of-the-earth kids. Who had crap exam results. Really crap. How much better for those kids if they'd had better exam results and could have gone out into the world and being more of a positive influence on their society? Maybe, they would have ultimately decided to have done exactly what they're doing now, we'll never know and they weren't given a fair go to reach their potential. From my perspective, I'd like to make it as easy as possible for my kids to reach their potential. If that's being a nurse, that's great - if it means being the Secretary General of the UN, that's great too. I couldn't really care less what they end up doing or what exam results they get as long as they've been given a decent go.

Onyx, as a person, I agree with you. How much better that a school teachs children to be human and humane.

But as someone who wants her child employable, exams count a lot. I wouldn't put my son in a school with whose ethos I disagreed, but I would want academically the best for my son. And exam results at 16 basically choose your life for you. Want to be a doctor? Not without top grades at 16 you don't. Your exam grades choose the subjects you can study further up, or even if you can, which restricts your options even further. Your not getting a good language grade at 16 may mean at 36 you're overlooked for promotion because they "need" someone who can speak another language: which you can do, but don't have the piece of paper to prove you could do it 20 years ago. Crazy. So I'd like a good school for my son with a decent ethos over one that I adored and was sustainable and holistic but didn't give him the life choices.