Help me understand.

Hi Everyone.

I just need some help - well more compare and comparison (as much as I hate it) but I need some perspective.

I have just done my first IVF cycle. The embryologist told me it was poor.

This is what happened.

I am 28yrs old. I was graded a "D" (for normal follicles)

I did puregon and orgalutran before pick up

They got 9 eggs
8 fertilized
only 2 survived and one was transfered and the other frozen at day 3. With a score 2.4 out of 4.

NOW.. this is where it gets tricky. I am being told that I am "so young" - I don't need anything else - because I am asking about luveris (LH). I was even told by the nurse that because of my age my eggs should be fine compared to a 40yr old woman. :wall:

NOW last time I checked I am a human being - and sometimes we don't fit into a box. But I keep being shoved into this "im so young - your only 28" box. I am about to blow a fuse. Considering I only got 22% of my egg survived, only to day 3 I would consider that pretty poor.

What I want to know is how everyone elses stats look?

Am I wrong to be asking for more help or more hormones - considering I am paying for it? its my body? Are doctors too cautious sometimes?

Krikkit, I don't think that it is unreasonable for you to want more investigation done into your egg quality at all. We are paying a hell of a lot of money for these services and it is these Dr's jobs to get it right (really, it is) and if they can't get it right, get to the bottom of WHY they can't.

I ALWAYS go with my gut feeling on things because 99.99999% of the time, I am right. And you will be too.

I am keeping everything crossed for this cycle for you! I really hope that you don't have to take anything further.

Big hugs
Sue xxxx

Oh hunny... first of all big :hug: for you xxx

This ride is horrid sometimes, and there are so many questions & different angles to go with everything, its just so hard to know what to do :(

Good on you for being active though.. a lot of people don't ask enough questions in regards to treatment & meds - you should be proud of yourself that you're on top of things ;)

I know its hard to hear it, and I'm sure you've heard it before me... but unfortunately that first cycle is so much of an experimental one... so much trial & error & is just not encouraging if it doesn't turn out as well as expected.
It certainly doesn't help when you get the 'you're young, nothing to worry about' attitude - I got that a lot (still do) & its FRUSTRATING....

I think between puregon & orgalutran you're on a brilliant mix... but like you said, we're all humans & we don't fit into a box.
Is your FS planning on changing anything?

From experience, i know they're all not so quick to give you the luveris... I'm about to start my 6th stim & am now only having it for the first time.

Have you tried other things to help embryo quality etc?

Acupuncture is briliant & has made a HUGE difference in my numbers & quality... chinese herbs are great as well... and I've been reading & hearing fantastic stuff about 'royal jelly' from other girls too....

It is a trial & error in many ways.. especially after your first cycle, & I know it doesn't feel very proactive to accept that ;)

I can't offer any other advice except to try the natural ways to compliment your cycle.... and just to put your faith in your FS for cycle #2 xxx

Most definately ask question after question & make sure you're happy with the answers (as much as you can be for now ;))

Big big hugs & strength xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi Krikkit - I'm sorry your first cycle was such a disappointment - but as the others have said, the first cycle is rarely successful. However, I think you are absolutely right about not being treated as a statistic. It doesn't matter what happens or works for anyone else, your ivf cycles are about YOU. And if your FS doesn't seem to grasp this, I suggest finding a new one. I have felt in the past that they have this tree of protocols they put people through depending on age/fertility issue/etc. and that they don't stop and think about what has been going on with YOU in particular. We all deserve (and are paying for) better than this.

All that being said, you are indeed young - which I think gives you the advantage of having the time to make these discoveries. I wish that they didn't have to be learned, but I think more often than not, while going through this journey you learn things that had you known at Day 1, you would have done things differently. Those with more time to spare age-wise (unlike myself) at least can employ the learnings before age is also working against you.

So, I think you should ask a lot of questions about the treatments you have researched and make them provide answers based on YOUR results.

Good Luck - I hope Cycle #2 is your lucky one.

Sue - I think I am right but I don't wanna get myself in a tizzy (esp on hormones) and lose the plot! I am going to voice my concerns on Tuesday with the FS and tell'em to back off with the "your so young" remarks. It makes me feel like they consider me a cash cow - I have plenty of time, therefore you can be on this road for years before we *really* have to start to worry!

Hollybolly - yes they are changing things up this cycle I will be on gonal -f cause on puregon I was on the maximum dose of 300 and with gonal -f you can go much higher. They are also changing me to lucerin - as orgalutran is quite strong (FS words) and is usually used for women who score and A or B on there natural follicle count, but I scored D - he couldnt understand why they gave it to me on my first round apart from the fact - wait for it- "I am so young!" grrr:wall: I am keen to try fresh Royal Jelly and I can't afford to do accupuncture - its just too expensive for me as well as paying for all the drs appointments and treatement.

buliej - thank you! It doesnt surprise me that they do shove people into catagory, but I figured at some point you will be treated like a human! I have to say my clinic is like a well oiled machine - in - out - done - next... sorta routine. I am surprised I don't have number.

I am grateful I have the age thing on my side, but it doesn't surpass the fact that I am infertile - and I think sometimes doctors/nurses forget that.

Krikkit, just because things went badly doesn't mean it's impossible to get anywhere.

My first cycle we had 26 eggs collected 15 fertilised and 4 grew to blast...
Second cycle we had 32 eggs, 20 fertilised and 7 grew to blast...

All of those were used with frozen transfers as I had bad OHSS both times. Only 4 of the lot ever defrosted, I got pregnant with three of them, but lost all three.

When we got to my third cycle we managed to keep it down to 20 eggs, but only 12 were mature and of those only three fertilised. We were devestated and were making plans of how to save up for another cycle before we even got to transfer. We transferred on day three and I've got Sam in the next room and two frozen embryos to show for it.

I know you're sick of hearing about the age thing, but I do want to point out that even though a cycle looks like crap, it doesn't mean it can't work. I'd be asking questions about the maturity of the eggs that were collected and whether you should stim for a shorter/longer period of time or try a completely different cycle. There's a lot that can be done before you start throwing expensive drugs at a problem that may or may not be there.

BW

Hi Kritkit,

It is a very hard journey and it doesnt make it any easier when your feel like your FS doesnt understand. You are lucky enough to have age on your side even though you have fertility problems. For us girls "over 35" it only gets harder!

I unfortunately lost my left ovary last year due to severe endo so my cycles went as follows:

No. 1 - 5 eggs collected, 3 fertilised, one embie
No. 2 - 1 egg collected, no embie
No. 3 - 4 eggs collected, one embie

I was lucky enough to get pg with during my last cycle so Im living proof that it only takes ONE!

Good luck and I hope your able to get your BFP soon :D

Take care,

Tania

Hi Krikkit

I hate it when we all get put into boxes of what is so called "normal" and what isn't. You are the best one to make the decision about how you want to be treated and you should make sure you voice your concerns.

I'm now 36 and was 35 when I had my first stim cycle. I was sure that "based on my age" we would have low EPU numbers as I was in that over 35 age group, however I achieved:

30 eggs at EPU - 18 fertilised (3 using ICSI and remaining via natural slection)
15 embryo's matured and 10 frozen at day 3 and 5 at day 5.

So this just goes to show that we cannot be put into a box of what is suppose to happen. Hopefully the new protocol will work for you to get more good quality eggs, but make sure you speak up of you are not happy, after all you are paying a lot of money for your treatment.

Kelly

I think the problem with first cycle is it is basically an experiment to test the drugs and dosage, because at best they can only guesstimate what dose and what drugs you need based on your clinical history of infertility and your "age", which works fine in theory for the average woman. But who is the average woman? Some people are extremely lucky to get it all right in the first round, and others not, and as you and the IVF team go along, improve the regime to tailor it to suit.

I had exactly the same dosage in my second stim cycle as the first but different labs. I'm 37 now, 36 at the first cycle. Both stim cycle 10 eggs at EPU at 300U gonal F with ogulatran trigger. We had 3 ICSI blasts first round, 2 frozen. The fresh blast was grade A but BFN. At the FET, one snowbaby didn't survive the thaw, and Frosty had a bit of frost damage, but I got a surprise BFP, then misc at 6 weeks. Second stim cycle, 10 eggs at EPU, only 1 made it to blast at day5 for transfer, a grade A, the current bub, one more survived till day6 which has been frozen, I didn't dare to ask the quality. My gut feeling is the second lab might not be as good as the first. My FS changed labs and I decided to follow him.

Anyway, do your research and ask questions. If you think it doesn't suit, voice your opinion. Good luck for the next round.

hi Krikkit,

i thought i would say hi and tell you my little story. i too have endo. i had a lap in feb of 2004 and fell naturally 3 months later. i had polyps and severe endo removed. then after 6 months of trying we went to see a FS in jan 2007. i have done 9 months of ovulation drugs, had another lap for a ovarina cycst, 6x iui's, 1x ivf and have just had my second FET.

my ivf resulted in 12 eggs,
6 fertilised. 2 transfered as 6,8 cells with o fragmentation.
the 4 were frozen and all survived the thaw. they were also classed as O fragmentation and ranged from 4-8 celled.
not sure what the grades are?


i too have a short cycle. usually between 22-26 days. last month however it was only 17days. this has never happened before. after a blood test i started ethinyl-oestradiol, progesterone 3 days before transfer and both until the bT. i did no drugs in my last FET and i feel like i wasted my 2 embies as AF came only 1 week after the ET.
it seems that my FS is like yours. he's very cautious and dosen't want to step outside the box! i only have one FS to choose from in town, so i am relaly hoping we have it right this time.
i would recommend to start acupuncture if you haven't already. i have an IVF acupuncturist and she knows what she is talking about especially with the endo!
anyway, goodluck and keep trying. it comes down to a numbers game. just like the lotto!!! LOL.
michelle

Hi Krikit and everyone

Krikit - Im kind of in the same boat as you now.
Im 29 and even though I really like my FS and the nurses and everything I fear too that they look at my age and so do things a bit differently.

Just at the end of my first IVF cycle now, BT tomorrow but AF is certainly here so BFN.
We had 6 eggs collected, 5 fertilised and were good at day 3 but only 1 made it to an extended blastie (I think she called it) and the rest weren't good enough to be frozen.
Now Im certainly at a loss - because I thought that we would be pg for sure. Given that I have been given the all clear for endo etc and we did ICSI which is supposed to bypass all male factor issues. So now Im left wondering could it be something with me that was never found, is it the sperm count still or what?

So im going to be very interested to hear what my FS says to try next. And after reading all these comments, i'll be making sure to say that i don't want any differences to others that are older because even though im not as old as others im certainly not getting younger.

So i completely know how you feel and understand
I hope we can both get things happening - lets stay strong together.
All the very best on your next attempt Krikit.

Any advice from anyone would be appreciated. And by the way what is "Royal Jelly"
Much love
xo

Hi Loops ;)

So sorry to hear about your first cycle as well :(
I think the same advice everyone has given Krikkit is perfect for you as well... its the first one, and they are always so hard - especially when the results aren't as great as you'd hoped :(

Please remember its very much an experimental cycle - and if you had a not so good cycle first time round doesn't mean you can't have a brilliant one the next ;)

There's a thread about Royal Jelly here http://forums.bellybelly.com.au/foru...yal-jelly.html HTH xxx

HI there

I know how hard it is, I have been there 3 times. I had good numbers of eggs, reasonable to good fertilisation and 3 failed ivfs.

I ended up after 5yrs conceiving naturally andnow have miracle baby boy.

After going through it, and seeing a lot of my friends go through the treatment roller coaster I would say do lots of research, ask lots of questions and make sure you are fully informed. that way you can be more insistent when you want a particular treatment, and you can get the most out of your dr meetings.

We have found that sometimes it feels like the dr can lose focus and forget about what we have to go through physically and emotionally, maybe they are all consumed with getting through the numbers of clients and the $$ - not sure??

Anyway, don't give up and keep trying.

Good luck.
robyn

Thank you Hollybolly and Robyn for your kind words of support and encouragement.
All the best to you both and your families.

Lou xo

Oh hun, how absolutely frustrating for you. But you're definately right, you are paying for these services and your concerns should not be dismissed just because of your age. I had a very similar story for 3 years and was just given "drugs" to fix my infertility, it wasn't until I had to demand them do a Lap and Dye test which they finally agreed to that I found out I have blocked tubeS. I am furious. I should have kept seeking more opinions years ago. If you're not satisfied with what you're being told seek more opinions....Best of luck.

xoxo