Advise about CIO

We have decided to try DS 8 months on Ferber style self settling.
Some sleeps (during day usually) he will have a cry or grizzle but fall asleep within 5 - 10 mins.
At bed time (evening) and during night wake ups its a different story.
DS cries if I leave the room, but calms if I stay in there with him - but dosent go to sleep. He will just lay there not going to sleep, and then gets very upset when I leave the room. This went on last night (middle of night) for near 2 hours till I took him into bed and fed him. I dont think he was real hungry (though probably by then with all his complaining :rolleyes: ). But he had a feed and then lay there awake till I fed him some more and then transfered him sleepy back to his bed.
This evening he has been crying and angry, but dosent seem hungry. I dont want to offer him milk anyway, because he had a big dinner and good BF. I am trying to break his habit of waking regular throughout evening for feeds.

Anyway, how long is it ok to keep this going on? Is there a point (of time) that if your LO is still not fallen asleep you should try something else?
I dont want us and him to go through an hour of comforted crying only to then pick him up and feed him ( as thats giving him mixed signals - and is just horrible for all of us ).

When you're in the room with him (with his eyes open!), what are you doing?

I used to sit in the room but not look at her - read a book or something. Can you sit next to the cot then move your chair further away each night or something?

I'm just wondering if you've looked at another style of comforting and settling at all?
Elizabeth Pantley's methods are tried and sworn by from lots of people - the 'No Cry' method.
Personally not a fan of Ferber as it takes a lot of your instinct out of mothering and individuality from your child - like you say, it's not 'working' and you're all upset; that's a signal to you, babe ;)
I know you're trying to 'break a habit', and it's possible that he needs this 'habit' to keep up his nutritional needs. Some babies do and some don't. I know my DS did, as he was not into solids until at least his 10th month. Even after solids, I knew that feeds during the night were fuelling his energy use during the day - I've got a real fireball, so I could see the purpose his nightly feeds served. It made it infinitely easier to have him sleeping in my bed - he'd feed without really waking either of us and DP wouldn't have to be woken, either. It's often easier, and not 'wrong' in any way, to make it easier on yourself and your LO by doing what comes naturally and not following 'one size fits all' rules - it's the mammals' way, too :)

I agree with mayaness!! My son is nearly 18mths old and I am sill feeding him once a night some nights. Sometimes he'll go back to sleep without a bottle but if he doesn't I know that he wants one and that works for us. Everyone gets the sleep they need without the crying and upset to the night.
He is a fullon kid. Sooooo much energy so that justifys the night feed to me.
I think you should do what you feel you need to do to make it better and more comfortable for you all. I found that with reading alot of material I confused myself with information overload. I feel that the topic of Babies and Children is sooooo general that no one can possibly tell you the right thing to do. Every child is different. What works for some babies won't work for others. When I trusted in my instinct and listend to my son, it all just seemed to fall into place.

I hope that you sort something out to benifit you both.

I agree with Mayaness too. CIO isn't a very nice way to go about sleep issues at all.

Babies under 1 year (and often beyond) NEED those night feeds for nutrition and development. Have you checked out the ABA website?

Thanks for your comments.
I am not trying to stop all his night feeds, but cut them down a bit. Waking every 2 -3 hrs (on a good night) for a feed during the night has me exhausted.
But its the habit of the waking every half hour after going to bed for the night is the habit I was refering to. He dosent really need to wake so soon after having a big feed.
We have co- slept up till about a week and half ago. We have decided we need more sleep than co - sleeping was giving us.
I have had awful sleep issues with this baby for 8 months and we have the Pantley book. We feel that ds is ready now for self settling, and based on what we know of him, i think he needs a bit of tough love... but obviously tough love done with tenderness, hence me asking for some advise.

Lulu, what age was your DD when you helped her settle by staying in the room?

Hi Salsa, I know you've had a rough trot with sleep, so big hugs for trying to make a change!

As for the waking every half hour, if you have been co-sleeping, I would guess it is because you are not there. Babies don't know the difference between say 8pm and 2am, so he would be waking thinking its time to go to bed with you iykwim?

I think I would try and gradually let him get the idea that his bed is for sleeping now, not yours. So can you 'camp' on the floor of his room for a week or so, until he gets the picture his room and cot is where he sleeps? Then once he gets the hang of it, you could try leaving the room when he's awake, so he knows you've left and doesn't look for you.

What are day sleeps like? Will he resettle himself at all?

Salsa - I'm really sorry to say it never worked...although I do agree with staying in there until they are reassured enough to drop off to sleep. With both my kids any sort of eye contact was an invitation to play. I spent hours upon hours sitting next to the cot or at the door.

We have had sleeping issues up until...um NOW actually and she is 3!

I think for us it was a very individual thing, she was a pretty good (go to) sleeper but her blasted brother used to make all sorts of noise just as I was putting her in the cot and I'm thinking that it's why she learnt to wake when a mouse farted. It was bloody horrible :wall:

It all seemed to go downhill from there. At the end of the day she just wanted me close and I couldn't argue with that :doh:. I was desperate for sleep, I really know how you feel.
It took for me to keep her silly bloody father out of the way (he could NOT stick to a routine) and a LOT of patience. Now she goes to sleep happily and early.

It shouldn't take as long as it did for me though - I had ten tons of other crap happening at the same time.

Salsa, it would appear that your DS's internal systems would beg to differ about how soon after 'going down' he should be waking ;) My DS did the same for a lot longer. I factored it into the night-time equation. He even did this till he was about 18 months old.
Some kids just need more from their parents than others - even those born to the same mummies :) They don't know that they're not conforming to our modern ideas of bed time and when the pressure is on you to 'get it right' (self-imposed or from a partner) it's harder to put yourself in the child's position to get that compassionate perspective.
Anyway, if you feel you need to get 'tougher' to make it work, I'm not sure there's any more advise other than to 'switch off' from the crying and stay in the room being physically present. That seems to be the key from the books and advice on CIO that I've read.
Good luck in your journey :hug:

Yes it's exhausting, I know. I've been soloing since I was pregnant with Ash. He was a 2 hour feeder 24/7 on a good day, 1 hourly on a bad one. Doing that with 3 kids was very very exhausting. BUT I didn't think it was something to change. I doubt it's a habit. More like he is unsettled. He's just been moved from your bed and his place of security, into his own room, own cot, where he has NO security. And to top it off mum is taking away his booby.

Try and see it from his POV. At 8 months they are still sooooo little and rely on mumma sooooo much.

Salsa, I don't want to give you advice about CIO or any other sleep techniques out there, but thought it might be useful to ask some other questions about why your DS may be crying and waking, so that you can rule out everything possible and know and be really sure of why your DS is crying and/or waking and what his need is.

What is he eating during the day and for dinner? There could be certain foods that are affecting him in a number of ways - giving him a stomach ache, causing wind (and wind pain), reacting to chemicals/additives/natural things like salicylates, or an intolerance to a certain food that he may have.

Is he teething? He would certainly be seeking comfort during the night if his gums are hurting, and lying down can make teething pain worse (it can often then be referred to the ears).

How much noise is there in your house in the evening? He could be waking with noise and being aware of things happening away from him that he wants to be a part of, which is common for babies at his age. They are very in tune and alert to even the smallest noises in the house, even in their sleep - I know my DD is!

Is he overtired? When my DD is overtired she can be very unsettled in the first hour after going to bed, often waking up after only 20 minutes. Could you try making his bedtime earlier, especially if he is not sleeping well during the day?

I know you mentioned that you've had sleep problems with him long term - it could be one different thing after another that has caused him to be unsettled, or it could be one thing overall - could there be something you are eating that is affecting him via your BM? Could you try cutting out certain foods that you know he doesn't have in his diet that are in your diet (there are a number of them that can cause problems in BF babies) to see what affect this has?

One thing I am always trying to remember with my DD so I can be cluedo and figure out what is going for her is that babies wake because they need something that they unable to deal with/fulfill themselves. If you can rule out everything that may be affecting him externally, then it may come back to him simply needing comfort or that feed. It's hard if that's all there is left, especially if you're very sleep deprived and you're required by your DS 24/7 and finding it so draining, but then it will allow you to come back to your decision if and how to sleep train and be comfortable with it 100%.

I know this doesn't answer your question for advice about CIO, but I thought it might be a different perspective that may be helpful in your and your DS's situation. Hopefully it is helpful and not a bunch of stuff you've already thought about.

Miss C :)