P.E.T. article: Don't Children Want Authority and Limits?

Parent Effectiveness Training: The Blog: Don't Children Want Authority and Limits?

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A belief commonly held by both laypeople and professionals is that children actually want authority--they like parents to restrict their behavior by setting limits. When parents use their authority, so the argument goes, children feel more secure. Without limits, they not only will be wild and undisciplined but also insecure. An extension of this belief is that if parents do not use authority to set limits, their children will feel the parents do not care and will feel unloved.

While I suspect this belief is embraced by many because it gives them a neat justification for using power, I do not want to discredit the belief as a mere rationalization. There is some truth in the belief and so it must be examined rather carefully.

Common sense and experience strongly support the idea that children do want limits in their relationship with parents. They need to know how far they can go before their behavior will be unacceptable. Only then can they choose not to engage in such behaviors. This applies to all human relationships.

For example, I am much more secure when I know which of my behaviors are unacceptable to my wife. One that comes to mind is playing golf or going to my office to work on a day when we entertain guests. By knowing ahead of time that my absence will be unacceptable because my wife needs my help, I can choose not to play golf or go to the office and avoid her displeasure or anger and probably a conflict.

However, it is one thing for a child to want to know the "limits of her parents' acceptance" and an entirely different thing to say that she wants her parent to set those limits on her behavior. To return to the example involving my wife and me: I am helped when I know her feelings about my playing golf or going to the office on days we entertain. But I certainly will bristle and be resentful if she tries to set a limit on my behavior by some such statement as, "I cannot permit you to play golf or go to the office on days we are having guests. That's a limit. You are not to do those things."

I would not appreciate this power approach at all. It is ridiculous to suppose that my wife would even try to control and direct my behavior this way. Children respond no differently to limit setting on the part of the parent. Equally strong is their bristling and resentment when a parent unilaterally tries to set a limit on their behavior. I have never known a child who wants a parent to set a limit on her behavior like this:

"You must be in by midnight--that's my limit."
"I cannot permit you to take the car."
"You cannot play with your truck in the living room."
"We must demand that you not smoke pot."
"We have to restrict you from going with those two boys."

The reader will recognize all these communications as our familiar "sending the solution" (also, all are You-Messages).

A much sounder principle than "children want their parents to use their authority and set limits" is the following:

Children want and need information from their parents that will tell them the parent's feelings about their behavior. so that they themselves can modify behavior that might be unacceptable to the parents. However, children do not want the parent to try to limit or modify their behavior by using or threatening to use their authority. In short, children want to limit their behavior themselves if it becomes apparent to them that their behavior must be limited or modified. Children, like adults, prefer to be their own authority over their behavior.

One further point: children actually would prefer that all their behavior were acceptable to their parents, so that it would be unnecessary to limit or modify any of their behavior. I, too, would prefer that my wife would find all my behavior unconditionally acceptable. That's what I would prefer, but I know it is not only unrealistic, but impossible.

So parents should not expect, nor will their children expect of them, that they will be accepting of all behavior. What children have a right to expect, however, is that they always be told when their parents are not feeling accepting of a certain behavior (I don't like to be tugged and pulled when I'm talking to a friend"). This is quite different from wanting parents to use authority to set limits on their behavior.*

*An excerpt from Dr. Thomas Gordon's P.E.T., Parent Effectiveness Training book

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Taking the example for a young child: "you cannot play with your truck in the living room", how would you phrase it, or communicate that thing, in a way that would be less likely to "offend" the child (offend really isn't the right word here, I can't think how to explain better what I mean).

I guess you can, in some cases, phrase it as a positive, eg "please play with your truck in the garden". Is that better? it seems to me to be as much dictating to the child what they should do as the original.

You can express it as a personal feeling "I don't like it when you play with your truck in the living room". Is that better?

You can give a reason "when you play with your truck in the living room you are noisy and it wakes the baby up". Reasons are good. Are they always necessary?

I'm trying to brainstorm here, because the above article seems to me to be saying "don't do this" without suggesting any particular different ways for a parent to achieve their goals of guiding their childrens' behaviour or of setting sensible household rules for coexistence. I'm sure there are ways to do this, just wondering what people think those ways would be.

Yeah I think you've hit it on the head with 'I would like you to play with the truck outside so the noise doesn't wake the baby (or whatever your reason)'.

I think reasons are good - there's no point having a rule/limit for no good reason, and children are more likely to understand the rule/limit if you explain why it's needed. If someone directs me to do something (eg a doctor), I always want to know why...and if they can't explain why I need to do what they're telling me, I disregard their directions.. I think the same applies for kids too.

The interesting thing about this article is that it assumes that we each can choose the behaviour that is ok for us - that children should be able to listen to your wishes about something & then make up their mind - to be their own authority. This assumes that children have all the information & the maturity to make the appropriate decision. But there are going to be some situations where parents will need to enforce limits for safety (eg. you must walk with an adult on the road, you cannot climb on the roof) - and regardless of whether our children like it, these limits are good for them.

Further, I wonder whether this type of parenting (giving children the authority over their behaviour) is really preparing them for life in wider society? If we constantly just tell kids our wishes, without expecting them to comply, how are they going to be prepared for schooling?? (where teachers will just give instructions & exect them to be obeyed - regardless of whether the child likes it, or thinks it is a reasonable request??) We all have to submit to governing authorities (the police, government, employers, teachers). These authorities do put limits on our behaviour (speed limits, dress codes, noise restrictions, etc), and we are expected to comply.

I dont have much time to explain, have a doctors appt... but it explains an teaches values and needs... needs as in someone 'needs' something like some quiet time to do some work and also values - things that don't affect you but you want e.g. dinner to be eaten a certain way, no playing at the table - whatever. Because we are all different and have different needs and values, so it teaches you to come to a medium with your child on values vs needs. I debated posting this article because you really need to learn the method to understand it. In the last week, I have instantly defused two blowups and I was happy as were they...

I have recently ordered a copy of this book and i'm looking forward to reading it...

Currently i would like to think i am setting some boundries for my child to prepare him for life and the situations he will come across in a very gentle way. It's the only way i know how right now. I am not all about you can't do this and you can't do that, i try to give him space to learn for himself. However when i do need to enforce something and as result get the 'blowups' i struggle to reason with him and get the outcome that i am trying to teach him v's the outcome he is damanding. This is what i find really challenging.

A few months ago i went to a council run info session on dicipline and it was a waist of time, I wanted to know the best way to deal with the challenges our children present on a daily basis in a gentle way as to not scar them for life because i maybe handled things the wrong way. Be it too forcfully or not. I'm not sure if their are answers to my questions but i'll continue to look around and try and inform myself as best as i can.

I partially understand where the article is coming from but as Bellybelly said maybe i need to maybe read the book and it all in context to completey understand.

Thats the thing when they are having a tantrum or a blow up you just cannot reason with them. But you can hear them and understand them so they can express how they feel and 'vent'.

Example of my son's party when I noticed him looking really sad and miserable in the corner after everyone ran off to play after food time:

Me: You look really sad
Him: I don't want to go and play
Me: So you're sad because you dont want to go and play
Him: Yes, I don't want to waste my energy (he was looking reeeeeeally tired since lunch)
Me: So you don't want to play because that will use up all your energy
Him: Yes, I'm really tired
Me: Hmmm you're tired, well how about we have a bit of a cuddle; you don't have to play right now if you don't want to
(had a quick hug on my lap)
(a friend runs in and says hello to my son, then my son jumps off my lap and races off) LOL!!!

An example of my daughter cracking it at bedtime, bearing in mind she rarely talks about her feelings and we'd stopped the bedtime stories because she was acting up interrupting all the time. After we left, she was kept getting out of bed and trying to drag me back, over and over again, she was being very upset and stubborn and then I realised I had to do my PET stuff! Can't remember all of it so will do my best, but its something like this:

Me: You seem really angry
Her: I want you to finish the story
Me: So you're angry because you want me to finish the story
Her: You're so mean, you never give me anything I want
Me: So you're angry because I don't give you anything you want
Her: You don't let us play the computer game with daddy on Wednesday nights anymore (they get one night a week to play an internet game with their dad but due to internet connection probs and other things they had missed out a few weeks)
Me: So you feel upset that you can't play with daddy on Wednesday nights?
Her: Yes (really sad face)
Me: Well how about this, I will send a message to daddy right now and ask him if he can go online tomorrow night (it was Wednesday) and I will tell him its very important for you. Then in the morning I can tell you all about it.
Her: Yes please (puts herself into bed and goes to sleep).

Crisises over. Its as easy and quick as that - you can choose to fight and argue with them for hours and ruin your night/day or you can say a few things and avoid ALL that. They just want to express their emotions as we do and feel validated as we do. Arguing with them when they are upset or tantruming (like with an adult) gets nowhere but more fighting, defensiveness and you don't think straight, you say what you don't mean. But see with my daughter's example, her tantrums were covering up how she really felt, something that was really bothering her... you have to keep on validating: So you're angry because xxx until you work down to the bottom and find the real reason. I don't find it tedious as it sounds but incredible that its often not what you think causing the problem, so you can prevent future episodes.

I love PET. I shout less, I lose it with them MUCH less. I don't use time out. I don't punish. Because I don't need to. And in turn they are learning life skills on problem solving and relating to others about how they feel without yelling back.

BellyBelly I really like the sound of what your saying, I remember some overwhelming feelings of frustration growing up when i felt my parents were just not listening to me, if i can do this differently for my boys i'd love to.

Thank you for your examples they make a lot of sense but i do have a situation in mind that i'm not sure how to handle with the approach you describe. I'm not expecting a one on one debrief here but an idea would be great :)

Just wondering about the tantrums when not getting what they what, for example at the shopping centre. DS1 is getting to the stage where he is refusing to hop in the pram, wanting to walk, doing this i struggle to keep him from not touching what is on the shelves and in the end usually walk out with some kind of lolly or toy so as to not have a tantrum in the shop. I don't want him to expect to receive something each time we are at the shops but how do get out of these situations with out a tantrum?

Thanks so much for your advice i'm looking forward to my book arriving and having a good read.

How old is your son? Pinky's article has some good tips for dealing with toddler tantrums - generally speaking PET is ideal from about 3 and up but never discount the ability for younger children to hear and accept what you are saying. For younger children they make it a little more basic and less steps as such.

Once a toddler is in the tantrum, they are impossible to reason with, giving a reward for that is not a great idea. I know its hard to 'give in' because you want to avoid a situation, but you'll be surprised how quick they get used to it when they get the opposite result - no treat.

The Method III or authoritative style of parenting that PET teaches results in a win-win situation - both sides are genuinely happy with the outcome opposed to win-lose where someone feels bad/doesn't feel satisfied with the outcome. I have no doubt when you give in to him and buy him sweets, you feel like crap. He feels almighty. Not a good power situation to set up....

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/toddle...tears-tantrums

This thread is a great read... thanks Kelly. :D

DS1 is almost 3, i do remember reading that PET is reccommended from 3 years so hopefully by the time i've got the book and read it he'll be ready for me to try and put a few things in place. Thanks so much for your help :)

I'm automatically starting this with DS without reading the book, so I'll support it. DS is not unaceptable ever. "Your ride-on doesn't play on the sofa" or "That's a garden toy" is sometimes used. "We'll play lego once we pack away the train set" is another good one - we BOTH tidy up together. I don't tell him what to do... except to get into bed or on my lap if he wants to hear the story! But it's a choice. Always a choice. He knows that when his behaviour is unacceptable I do a countdown from 5 and he's 80% of the time back by my side before I reach 1. Sometimes we HAVE to do things my way - but sometimes we do as he asks.

BTW, I was the teenager who longed to hear "be in by 12, that's my rules" because it meant my parents cared enough to know I was safe. If you have very, very few rules, you need a bit of firmness. Of course, after years of no rules, it did grate when Dad decided that, at 19, I was to be in by 11 because I was in at 3 the previous morning and that was "too late" - but I had no curfew so how was it late?

I also always ask DS what his tantrum is about and ask him why he feels like that. Don't always get a great response but it calms him down.

Yep, same here Ryn... most of the rules and consistency ended the day my parents separated. From that point on it was "ah do what you like... why don't you go OUT more???" :rolleyes:

Thanks for this Kelly. I find PET so interesting. I ADORE Pinky and love her books but would love the more one on one training of a course but I can't find any in Syd :(

You could try emailing or calling head office? I saw a huge list somewhere, I thought there were none in states other than QLD & VIC, but they are even overseas. Its worth it, the peace is soooo worth it!!!

Great article!!! It is so good to read something that doesn't assume that parents can control their children which is such a common statement that is made but people don't understand how incorrect it is. I raise my kids under the pretense that the only person that I can control is myself ... I cannot control another person including my kids. That doesn't mean that I can't manage them, it just means that I cannot dictate to them how they will behave, it is up to them.

I believe that in raising kids, reasons are necessary. I am trying to teach my kids to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do (internalising the behaviour) rather than just because they are scared of what is going to happen to them if they make the 'wrong' choice (that is externalising the behaviour). I think that you teach kids to internalise their own behaviour by teaching them empathy for other people and helping them to understand how their behaviour impacts the world around them. If kids learn from a young age to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do and not because they are worried about the consequences, I think you lessen the chance of them rebelling later on.

I don't think a lot of what looks like rebelling is actual rebellion though. I think when kids start to realise that no-one is going push a consequence on them for a behaviour, they can struggle to set limits for themselves because they never have before. I think they often just push the limit because all of a sudden the external limitation on their behaviour doesn't exist.

I haven't actually read any Pinky stuff and hadn't heard of PET until last week. I have done my Glasser Reality Therapy training which seems to sit quite well with all this stuff. I am a huge fan of Glasser!

Thanks for posting Kelly. I love reading stuff like this :)