What's the etiquette with other people's children?

Is there some kind of unsaid etiquette in how you should broach the behaviour of other children when it directly affects yours? (i've purposely avoided the word negative, discipline etc because i know everyone's perceptions vary so much).

I've been affected by this twice recently. First at a park which also has a path where small children ride bikes/ride ons etc. DS1 got off his bike but parked it next to the play equipment he went on. Me, dh and DS2 all nearby. I didn't even notice until i heard DS1 screeching and noticed another little boy similar age (3ish) had taken off with it, had already ridden it about 20 metres away. I went to console DS1, saying that he's probably just taken it for a ride but that its really rude to not ask for a turn first. I paused scanning the park for his mother.... assuming she would get him off and return it. About 5 mins past as my DS watched this kid enjoying his bike! If looks could kill! DS is not very verbal and very shy socially so would never approach anyone. But as nothing was happening i said, 'okay i think thats enough, lets go and ask him for it back'. We walked down about 20m where he was and i said 'we need the bike back now thank you love'.... he said 'ive been riding' (i was thinking um we realised that - don't you have any manners??? my DS would never touch anyone elses property without asking. Even my stuff! He will ask if he can borrow something from my room etc, taught him from a young age).

Then i realised only 2 metres away, the mother and family were on a blanket having a good old relax, fully in visual sight of her son... she just smiled and kind of mimed what i think was "sorry" but cant be sure because her smile looked more like a smirk. How could she just sit there and what her child take someone elses bike and not intervene? He ran off to some other play equipment and she just continued sitting there, not saying anything.... if she said something later i dont know, but it would have been pointless because a 3 year old can't really understand consequences if you don't address it while its happening.

I wanted to say to the boy, "you really should have asked before you took our bike" but wasn't sure if it was my place to do so.... is it??? We took the bike and i explained to DS1 that what the boy had done wasn't right and that you must always ask someone if you can have a turn or borrow something instead of just taking it, because the person can get upset. I think it was a good lesson for him though because now he knows how it feels.

We don't go to busy parks much so i'm not sure if this is a common thing and i'm over reacting? But i'd hate to think that if i was on my own what would have happened, because i couldn't have left ds2 by himself to walk all the way down to get the bike, luckily my dh was with him.

The other thing is going to a fun station, those indoor playgrounds. The one we go to has a sign on the gate "5 years and under only". Yet there's always older kids going in there. This really bothers me because we are trying to build DS1's confidence up by showing him that social crowded situations are okay and fun. Yet when he's on the bouncy castle and a huge clearly older child jumps on he freaks out and gets off. Today there was a dad with a toddler and 3 boys who were somewhere between 8 and 12. Its not a huge area, they were running around with the toddler, the dad was taking pictures... and well DS1 just didn't feel comfortable. I could tell as he kept stopping what he was doing and sort of standing back. Why do people ignore the rules? Do i have a right to say anything?? Also 2 of them weren't wearing socks, another rule. They often remind people over the loud speaker about the socks thing, but obviously they ignored it.

Just annoying and i'm wondering what the etiquette is?

I know if my boys were doing something wrong, i would definately step in, stop them doing it, explain why and offer an apology... and after explain to them that the right thing to do is apologise if you do something wrong to someone. (i don't believe in forcing children to apologise or shaming). But i'm definately pretty vigilant in making sure they're not doing anything that affects anyone else negatively.

What do you do when other parents aren't?

First on the park issue, the other parent sounds like something I would do if I had had a stressful day adn was trying to relax for 5. If I noticed DS was riding someone elses bike and could see the owner was standing by watching I would not intervene as I would assume that the owner was happy for DS to have a turn, after all I ave shared DS bike at the park before. She probably didnt realise that your DS was so upset about him using the bike and maybe because this mum's child is outgoing, she doesnt understand about shy more sensitive kids and how they work. I doubt she was being uncaring or not disciplining her child properly, it may be just a case of her not placing as much importance on THAT sort of discipline in particular? Im not one to rush in and make a big deal out of something in public if it isnt a huge issue and my child wasnt being malicious, as I dont think that the embarrassment caused is worth it.

If I were in your shoes and a child took DS bike without asking and rode off with it, I would keep an eye on it and tell DS that it is great to share and that we would get the bike back in 5 minutes. If the child was still riding after 5 minutes I would explain that its DS turn to ride now and maybe the other child can have another turn in 5 minutes.

As for the indoor play structure, I agree it angers me when parents let their odler kids play in the little kids playground and I am often kicking older rough kids out of there if DS is in there and feeling nervous/intimidated. I just say "Big kids, OUT, this is for small kids and babies, your playground is over there, off you go", they always happily move on. As for the socks rule, they rarely enforce that at our play cafe but i still try and enforce it with DS, however I dont stress about it. Same with the "no climbing up slides" rule, if there arent many kids there I will just let DS do whatever, but if there is a safety issue I enforce it.

I am interested to read other parents points of view on rules and discipline, we are all so different with such different expectations and values.

Personally I think you are within your rights to remind another child of your or someone else's rights. So not to tell them what they have done is wrong, or tell them off... but let them know how they effected someone else.

In the case of the bike I would go up to the child and say "This is DS1's bike. We like people to ask before they borrow our bike. We would like it back now, thank you". I don't think your son needs to learning about "sharing" in that case as it's not sharing, it's stealing. I don't blame the Mum for not intervening- for all she knows you lent it to her son.

In the case of the play centre I would (and have) reminded older children that this play area is for children under 5. Then point them to the older play section. With the parent so close it makes things harder as they know the rules so they obviously don't care they are breaking them. Tricky.

I certainly would have said something to the child. Mainly for his own safety. If someone took off with my DS's bike he would go postal, and a scene from Terminator 2 would quickly follow.
However, it's terribly rude for the mother to just let that unfold. You don't just grab someone elses anything and take off with it. You ask.
By saying something kindly but firmly you are also showing your ds how to handle those sort of situations gracefully.

Playcentres suck for those reasons. I only take my kids in the mornings when it's quiet, but if that situation bothered me I would speak to management rather than take on a clearly oblivious parent. I usually say something to the older kids running amok in the little kids area. With a smile though.

i have been saying to DS alot lately that we have rules in our family and other families may not have the same rules, so in our family we need to ask first before taking something, others dont have that rule but it is really important you remember OUR rules.

in the case of the play house i would say to the parent, do you mind asking the boys to stay out of this area as it is scaring DS and this is a designated area for under 5.
the socks.. pfft.. my kids often wear shoes with out them so i dont pay attention to that rule. :)

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In the case of the play centre I would (and have) reminded older children that this play area is for children under 5. Then point them to the older play section. With the parent so close it makes things harder as they know the rules so they obviously don't care they are breaking them. Tricky.

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I have been a total cow with this, and said stuff like "It's a shame that some people choose not to follow the rules, isn't it?" to the kids I'm with, or, once, in the case of a woman and child feeding ducks half a metre from a "don't feed the ducks" sign, a four year old asked me why. I said "Well, it seems they're not clever enough to be able to read. Why don't we go and read through the sign?"

I think it's really important to say things in a nice way as Lulu says, mostly because you are not only helping your child, you are showing your child that rules apply to all and also you are teaching them problem solving techniques as well as social etiquette and how to deal with confrontation.

The worst is when you see other parents turn into banshees, that does nothing but teach children how to be bullies themselves.

See I dunno about that Audax, I think it teaches our children passive aggression and judgement iykwim?

Unfortunatly we cant control others kids or how parents behave or lack of. Would be nice at times if we could do though!! I think!

I just do my own thing. I unfortunalty dont think there is any etiquette anymore at all... I don't worry about others, keep toys at park close to us. And to be honest don't expect anything from others, in regards to manners to my kids to myself.. etc..

Its a shame that things are like that now. I guess things change in society.....

Good luck.

I agree that I would say something. The first situation is IMO very rude. Because if the child is resistant to getting off you have little choice but to hunt down the parent (you can't pull the kid off) or just hold the bike till they get off. I feel that in small familiar groups (e.g. mothers groups) then if you bring a toy then be prepared to share but in the park then leave alone toys from people you don't know.
In the play centre situation we always say something directly (nice but firm) to the kids. They are usually apologetic and leave the area. If they didn't I would say something to management because it is a safety issue not an etiquette issue. But we have had the difficult situation where an older boy was babysitting his younger brother with his parents nowhere in sight (they weren't even in the centre) and they were really too rough for the young section but too young for the older section. Ultimately it is up to the parents to supervise especially in the bigger playcentres where you can't see them well from the tables and I get really annoyed at kids asking me to open gates to get them in or out of sections when I don't know whether I am going to get abused by the parents for letting them in or not letting them out (I have had both).

I think you're well within your rights to say something in a polite manner in both situations. Personally, in the bike situation I'd say "DS would like his bike back now please" and in the play centre situation I'd either ask the parent to move their kids to the older equipment, say something to the kids themselves, or say something to management.

personally i wouldnt mind some other kid playing with one of my kids toys...its an opportunity to learn that sharing is good and that they dont have to be territorial

I agree that the other mother could have used the opportunity to teach her son a lesson about 'asking permission' first rather then taking something that doesnt belong to him. Perhaps she didnt realise there was a problem? You could have approached her and let her know that your son was upset and then she may have acted.

I think parents forget that these instances are not necessarily bad but opportunities to teach their children good behavior. Both the kids could have learnt a very valuable lesson that would have added to their awareness of common courtesy and social ettiquette.

The other thing is that some parents take offence to another parent criticising their child. I had the incident where two boys (4yr) were playing and one of them hit my daughter who was only 3yrs. I immediately went over and asked the boys who hit her and they each pointed to each other. Then the mother of one of them came over and wanted to know what was going on and i told her that i was asking them which one hit her and neither of them are admitting to it....she didnt do much but did seem to be annoyed at me for asking them. I probably should have gone over to her but in a room full of kids and parents it not going to be possible to know who their parents are....anyway, lesson learnt, some parents just dont like anyone rousing on their kids...being angels and all iykwm lol.

With the park situation, I would be so shocked that a child the age that you mentioned isn't so closely monitored that they are able to approach a stranger and get the bike in the 1st place.. Then after that shock wore off, I would then ask for the bike back as DS (or in my case DD) wasn't asked if you could use it. (If I was asked, I would most likely say yes if DD was otherwise occupied)..

For the playcentre, I tend to shield DD if there are rough kids on there that shouldn't be. And explain to her that they shouldn't be there, but she will get her go soon. I also don't expect older kids to make allowances for her if she is on their age group things. But while at a local shopping centre, my mum has asked bigger kids to leave the equipment. Wasn't only a safety issue for the younger kids wanting to use it, but they are designed for certain age/weight ranges, and these ones were definately not close to the age group specified.

Well the bike situation has happened to me but my ds took it but I jumped up and went to get him off but the parents said he was ok to play with it as it hasn't been used, I once had two kids picking on him at the park and I saw one push him so I marched up there and said in a firm voice don not push my son and they left him alone after that, if the parent had issues with that I would tell them if they were parenting them I wouldn't have to.

My kids rarely wear socks at the play centre because they always take them off, and we go with my little sister and my kids so often have the big kids 10-5 in the toddler room though they don't play rough

The bike issue is a interesting one. Often the notion of possession is strongly influenced by culture. I try to explain that to my children. Personally i prefer that people ask for permission to use things in my possession: A) incase we are planning to leave soon B) incase there is something they need to know about the item eg the breaks are dodgy C) incase i myself am borrowing it therefore not mine to lend. My DH's SIL is of indigenous decent and they, for example, have a very relaxed culture of possession.... so relaxed that nobody quite knows who owns what half the time... it's all about sharing resources. And that's ok... if you are in the loop. However DH has leant items to them and never seen them again which is VERY hard to deal with gracefully LOL yes things are "only stuff" but then again what do you do if you need the item and it's vanished? Just go get a new one? We don't have the resources to keep doing that. Like I said, tricky, and we don't generally lend items to my SIL and BIL unless we are happy never to see the item again.

I'm going on a tangent... in a nutshell i believe it's better to ask to use another persons equipment... at what age do you teach this to a child so they don't get accused of stealing?

The socks issue: is it for hygiene or safety or both? My kids don't generally go in those places... mainly because I don't feel they are safe. Having worked in childcare safety has been drilled into me and i just can't look at all the kids pushing the boundaries of safety and the parents in total oblivion. The signage always says to supervise your child but people so rarely do. Too many times i have seen kids trying to get ontop/outside of the structure where they shouldn't be for example and I don't want to cop the wrath of a parent hearing me pulling their child into line. I often do speak to other people's children... but i do it politely in a similar manner to how i would have at work... but people still get antsy. I don't get that... my children aren't always angels and if they are pushing the boundaries i LOVE it when a stranger asks them to do the right thing... saves me having to say it 10 times!!!

Just to clarify the bike issue.... we were about 30 metres sloped upwards to the back of the park. Ds1 was riding about 10m from us in circles as we were helping DS2 on a slide. Ds1 sort of parked the bike closer to us, but still about 5ish metres away, so not in the sand, but not on the path. He came to go on the slide. Our picnic mat was about 20 metres away. I didn't see the boy until he was well on his way down the path and road PAST his family towards the front of the park. I watched him from up where we were assuming he would just turn round and ride it right back you know?? I wasn't letting him have a "turn" and didn't say this to DS1 as it wasn't a turn - in my mind if you take something that isn't yours its stealing. I didn't say that to ds1 as i didn't want him to over react as he was already upset. Plus introducing new words like that would be confusing. By the time i walked with ds1 down the slope, it had been about 5 mins. His family had their backs to where we would have been, but by the time we were down there we were about 5 metres to the side of them and she clearly saw me ask for the bike back - hence mouthing words to me, which i'm sure was sorry. (which i took as sorry i was too lazy to get up). Perhaps i'm being a cow, but who cares if she was tired and having a relax... i have major PND, am on a variety of meds which limit my mobility AND have a chronic neck/back condition. But i struggle through it so my boys can enjoy life, smile and ignore the pain. SO i don't accept that as an excuse. Then i wanted to be clear with DS1 that he should have ASKED for a turn, because he wasn't having a turn if he hadn't asked, you don't just take others property. Plus i wonder if i would be liable if he had an accident on it????? It's not entirely stable as the training wheels aren't aligned perfectly (DS just about to get a new one).

Thanks for the feedback on this issue, it's given me something to think about.

With the fun station, i don't really like these places as they're overpriced and the equipment hygeiene concerns me. But we're trying to make sure we do a variety of activities for our boys and they love the under 5s area. The socks thing is a hygiene issue and they always mention they sell socks there.

Next time i will tell management because the other annoying thing is the older kids leave the gate open and DS2 runs out of there which is really annoying because then he has a tantrum when i take him back in.

It's kind of hard to find something different to do each weekend, as we have no family or friends. SO we generally go park one sunday, beach next sunday, fun station third sunday and somewhere like the foreshore on the fourth sunday.

Anyway thanks again for the advice :)