Your temple...when do we stop and draw the line?

Taken from a recent post I did in a related thread

When do we as woman then stop having rights? Do we have no rights to abortions full stop then? No rights to say what we can and cant do with out bodies?

We fight so strongly for our 'rights' to do things that are unnatural or not naturally happening to our bodies eg - botox, plastic surgery, stiches in our wombs to stop m/c, IVF, sterile clips, why can we take away that choice that a woman has. It is HER body and whilst I dont personally agree with what she did its her temple that she is treating. Only she has the right to say what is right for her.

Do we have the right to judge a woman for the choices she makes for herself or her body? Is there a magic line in the sand drawn that says ' dont step here'?

After recent avents in my IRL world Ive taken more of a step back and learnt to listen with my ears and eyes and take things in...not pass judgement and yes offer support even if it is against the grain and distast of others. I find it quiet unnurturing of others to take it to heart that I dance to the same beat...we should learn and feed of each other to grow and support everyone we can.

After all we're all here with the same purpose in life...to breath

Not going to enter the debate with my opinions and thoghts, but I think it gets messy because it stops becoming solely about her body, and it starts involving another. There are some up in arms about the right to abortion, but also protest a man who is not liable for the death of a fetus in the womb. Where is the line? I'm not going to say. Its a sticky sticky sticky topic...

I absolutely agree with you, Maz. I feel that I'm entitled to an *opinion* on a person's actions, but if I believe that opinion may be unnecessarily judgmental, I just keep it quietly to myself and think, 'I would do it differently'. And of course, I expect that others will at least respect my decisions, if they can't agree with them.
Sure, I get worked up in my own mind about certain things, sometimes. This is WRONG, that is WRONG, I really hate that X can do A, B and C. I JUST DON'T AGREE WITH IT AND I THINK IT'S C***. But I feel that I'm allowed to have my own opinion, and if I'm not airing it (or at least not airing it in a hurtful or cruel way) then I'm not really hurting anybody.

I mean, I don't expect all of us to agree with each other 100% of the time, or agree with the actions of another person and be in perfect harmony. God, how BORING. But, I feel I have just as much right as anybody to have complete autonomy over myself and would be loath to see, for example, laws introduced that stop me doing something I should have every right to do, just because some other people don't agree with my decision and would prefer to see nobody do it, kwim?

I want to share my thoughts & views, but while I might read, I think it will be too emotional reguarding the particular subject for me.

We as women & mothers fight for so many rights, & we are judged so harshly for the mistakes & decisions we make. We are the ones who have to live with those actions. Be it tomorrow, or in 10 years time. We have to live with that choice.

Leasha, you just took the words out of my mouth. Without meaning to sound crude, if a person is adult enough to open their legs and allow themselves to become pregnant, she is then making choices not only for herself but for another human being and soul.

If this was a simple question regarding our right to sterilization for eg. no argument.

BUT my view is not that black and white. I believe people have the right to error and as such abortion has a place. But when the unborn fetus is a fully formed feeling child that just needs to basically grow - the line has been crossed and I can't understand how that falls under women's rights.

Not to say the potential life of a 6 week fetus is any less - but at least the feelings of pain and death aren't the same as a late termination

It can be so hard not to judge other people - so often it's my first instinct to think something horrid and judgmental about someone. Luckily as I've got older I think (hope) that I've got better at holding my judgment a bit or considering that there may be circumstances about which I'm totally unaware.
No, I don't think we have a right to judge a woman/a human for the choices she makes about her body no matter how distasteful they may be to us.
I think Ben Harper sums up the kind of philosophy I try and live by

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my choice is what I choose to do
and if I'm causing no harm
it shouldn't bother you
your choice is who you choose to be
and if you're causin' no harm
then you're alright with me
if you don't like my fire
then don't come around

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Of course I don't always succeed ;) but I like to think that I'm getting better.

Is there a line that say's 'don't step here'? Well...... if they're stepping there in white high heels then they've crossed a line and deserve to be severely berated and hated on :p

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Not going to enter the debate with my opinions and thoghts, but I think it gets messy because it stops becoming solely about her body, and it starts involving another. There are some up in arms about the right to abortion, but also protest a man who is not liable for the death of a fetus in the womb. Where is the line? I'm not going to say. Its a sticky sticky sticky topic...

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I see that as 2 enitrely different views hon. Abortion is the woman taking control of her body and life, a person knowing hurting, killing a woman carrying a child is completely different...its not his body and not her choice.

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Leasha, you just took the words out of my mouth. Without meaning to sound crude, if a person is adult enough to open their legs and allow themselves to become pregnant, she is then making choices not only for herself but for another human being and soul.

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no she is still making a choice for herself in enjoying the pleasures of sex. I thought we were out of the woman have no right age and thought that we were permitted to enjoy :whip: a little fun...I agree some level of responsability needs to be taken. You cant tell me everytime you have sex its to procreate.

I dont think its a persons right to judge but its a persons right to have an opinion. Unfortunately abortion has become a hot topic with the increasing rate of unplanned pregnancies.

I think the fact that birth control is either becoming obsolete in being an effective means of avoiding pregnancy/std's or people are just becoming more irresponsible in their choice to not use or not use properly whatever birth control method they choose; doesnt help. The pill has what a 95-99% effectiveness yet every second unplanned baby announcement I hear lately in my personal life is a 'my birth control failed' story. Cant honestly be THAT high a percentage of women who birth control does not work for surely? Funnily enough its rarely ever related to IUDs or implants. Just the pill/depo shot/condoms. Which becomes less effective through user-error. Or I get told about a second unplanned pregnancy due to birth control failure; then find out they used the same birth control that apparently didnt work the first time? I still fail to understand that logic.

Sure my body is my temple and its mine to do what I will with; but when its potentially involving a new life, it becomes more than just a "Its mine and I'll do what I want with it" tanty. Maybe my archaic view of children being an extremely monumental decision/part of a persons life and therefore needs a great amount of thought into the who/what/when/where/why's of it all is just out-dated and soooooooooo uncool. I dont judge a person on it because that would eliminate some very close friends of mine; in the end I dont have to live it, they do. If your having sex, you have to consider the outcome if you end up getting pregnant; if you feel you arent in a good place to have a baby then be responsible. If you are one of the few birth control doesnt work for then thats just super unlucky. If your ok with a happy surprise then go for your life.

I used to be very anti abortion. Until I grew up a bit, had kids of my own, read a few educating threads and viewpoints on BB. Now I am pro-choice to a point. Whilst I wouldnt have an abortion and I dont believe in the misuse of abortion; I do believe that sometimes its the best outcome for both the woman and the baby. There are too many struggling parents and children already without forcing people to add to them. Its not fair and equally as irresponsible.

I just cannot fathom repeated mistakes and passing the buck of responsibility.

I think that similar to my stance on csections, abortion should be there for a small amount of cases NOT as a 'norm' to eshew having the forethought to avoid possible consequences iykiwm? These days your lucky if pregnancy is the only thing that results from unprotected sex, Id be more concerned about the plethora of more sinister things you can end up with.

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no she is still making a choice for herself in enjoying the pleasures of sex. I thought we were out of the woman have no right age and thought that we were permitted to enjoy a little fun...I agree some level of responsability needs to be taken. You cant tell me everytime you have sex its to procreate.

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Maz I respectfully disagree. If you have sex, you could possibly get pregnant, protection or not. Nothing is obviously ever 100% foolproof so on the off chance your the unlucky .1% birth control doesnt work for you'd wanna have thought about what you'd do in that situation. The only surefire way to not play with fire is to roll over and play dead ;)

I am glad you began this thread as a member - a little on edge as a moderator! :lol: (I am imagining my fellow mods going: "great idea that one'... :wall: :lol:)

Well I don't have the answers and I haven't really thought through this completely but I'd like to unpack it some... :think:

So, I don't know about you but I have had sex unplanned in "the heat of the moment" & I also conceived a pregnancy. I was in a relationship with someone but I did not want a child in that relationship/situation so I chose to terminate that pregnancy. it was a difficult time but the decision has not been regretted. Even when I lost my much planned babies. There was remorse, wistful wonderings but intellectually and emotionally I felt sure that decision was right & I still do... It was right for me at that time & stage of my life.

When does the decision become nolonger about the right of the Woman carrying the pregnancy? Is it at conception as some would say? Or is it at viability (thus the 24 week cut off)? When has the father got the right to say: "this is about my fetus - a fetus I have a right to have born?"...

I'm not sure. As a feminist I believe my body is mine. I can see and understand the right of a father - but then I consider that it is a "risk" if you like of sexual intercourse that a pregnancy might occur and that pregnancy needs a uterus & if I"m a bloke I haven't got those bits so my fathering perhaps begins at birth? mmmm not sure?

As a humanist I also believe in the rights of the fetus.

As a spiritual being I also believe that we all have Karma & it is my firm belief that for some that Karma is to stay a short while & leave indellible footprints and for others it's to stay a long while and perhaps trash the joint! :rofl:

Now, holding the spiritual beliefs I do I personally (for my own body) would not now choose to terminate a pregnancy. However, for me it gets a bit spiritually murky as I conversely don't believe a soul that was "meant" to be interrupted in pregnancy would be incarnated now as my child due to that belief I now have... (if I've lost you ask away & bear in mind I am pondering as I write!)

I also would not stand in judgement that YOUR decision is right or wrong. Because that's your journey and not my own...

Aaaaaah think some more hey????

I really shouldn't have read either of these threads I think, it's getting me so upset. But I have, and I want to present the opinion that is burning me from the inside, just to present another view - I do sincerely apologise to anyone who disagrees with my view, and also..

I recognise and fully understand that my view is predominantly religion based, and I do not now, nor will I ever tell a woman she was wrong to make whatever decision she made - I recognise that very rarely are these decisions made in haste without due consideration and heartache.

Having said that - when does a baby get rights? When a woman has sex, it is with the knowledge that sex causes pregnancy, unless there is a mitigating factor, such as birth control or infertility. Therefore, IMHO, when a woman has sex and falls pregnant, why is it the baby's fault? Why does the baby have to die because the woman wanted a fun night out without consequences? We try to teach our children that there are always consequences to their actions, but the ability to have an abortion because you're not ready to have a baby flies in the face of that teaching. So no, sex isn't always JUST for procreation, but those engaging in it need to be mature enough to realise that there can be life changing consequences. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time!

I hafta say Leasha, I agree with you 112% - it gets messy when there is another life involved. I understand the view that its a woman's body and no-one else should make the decision - but what about the body inside her? What makes them any less deserving of that basic right?

I totally get where you are coming from Berenice... :hug: Totally & I too question when does the right of the fetus come in? I dom't know the answer to that.
I have told my own daughter (14) that sex shouldn't be an option unless you are prepared that the consequence can be pregnancy... It's a tough one & I do get your point.

Imma gonna open a can of worms and ask:

Do you think that government benefits and a lax-er attitude towards single parenting has made people a bit less responsible in avoiding pregnancy?

I can only assume that if I were a teenager 50yrs ago, I would most definately have been thinking hard about the choices I made regarding unprotected sex if I knew it was not an easy option to keep the baby or to have an abortion. Obviously it still happened but the outcomes were tougher. These days it 'seems' like it isnt a big deal to have an unplanned baby as a teenager/single woman because there is help.

Nowdays you have an 'out' if you need it or 'aid' if you need it depending on your choice. Takes away a bit of the sting until reality sets in, sometimes not until the choice has been made and executed :shakehead:

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As a spiritual being I also believe that we all have Karma & it is my firm belief that for some that Karma is to stay a short while & leave indellible footprints and for others it's to stay a long while and perhaps trash the joint!

Now, holding the spiritual beliefs I do I personally (for my own body) would not now choose to terminate a pregnancy. However, for me it gets a bit spiritually murky as I conversely don't believe a soul that was "meant" to be interrupted in pregnancy would be incarnated now as my child due to that belief I now have... (if I've lost you ask away & bear in mind I am pondering as I write!)

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I totally understand this...and agree.
Everything happens exactly as and when it is supposed to.
And if you subscribe to the view that children 'choose' their parents, then you must concede that this happens for a reason. Personally I believe I am chosed because I have certain experience or life lessons to teach, and vice versa.
If these babies chose this incarnation, then that was their purpose for this particualr woman. Their purpose was not necessarily to be born, but rather to imprint the lesson on her life. That is her cross to bear.

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, but I think it gets messy because it stops becoming solely about her body, and it starts involving another.

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:yeahthat:

I will also say that it is possible to dislike an action, but still have respect for a person & their choices.
Whether or not I would choose to terminate a pregnancy - BUT neither would I judge another woman for doing so - her shoes, her journey, etc.

My opinions on the action don't necessarily impact on my opinion of the person. Does that make sense?

And in regards to the other thread - I think there comes a point where the pregnancy is advance enough that you are talking about another person. At that point, it's not just about the woman anymore.

Abortions were not legalised up to 24 weeks for women however young or old to have up to 24 weeks to decide if they wanted to have a baby or not. There becomes a time when its not about womens rights but the rights of the life inside her.
Abortions were legalised so women that were not mentally capable, medically well or that had a sick baby growing inside them had the option to make the heartbreaking decision to end their pregnancy.

It was not legalised as a form of birth control or so people would stop passing judgement on the women who sort to make that choice for themselves.

I believe women have a choice up until a certain point. Then I say "Suck It Up" the time to make a choice has passed. :)

This is a subject that I am quite torn on because it encompasses so much.

On judging on others, I think it is human nature to do so, but I try and make a conscious effort not to do so, because I think until you have walked in the shoes of another, you have no right to pass comment about how they choose to live their life. I am a very firm believer in what ever works for you, just because what is right for me isn't right for you doesn't mean it is wrong- and I get so angry when others judge and attack others, especially women against other women, because they have made decisions for their lives and lives of their families, and get torn down and attacked because it doesnt sit well with the view of someone else. When is it that as a community of women we are going to applaud our fellow wives and mothers, for doing what they can to give the best life for their family, even if it isn't what you would choose for yours. Is it that we are so scared of being judged for how we live ours, that we attack to protect our own beliefs, rather than feel comfortable enough in our decisions to say- it's ok, I did what I thought was best at the time?

On the topic of abortion- certainly a murky topic. I have a few thoughts, I agree that it shouldn't be a form of birth control- like many say if we are responsible enough to have sex, then yes we are responsible enough for the consequences, like others say sometimes in the heat of the moment things happen, I am currently carrying a heat of the moment baby, but I am a happily married, financially secure wife and mother, I wouldn't have dreamt of having an abortion this time- however I can't say the same if circumstances were different, because I am not in different circumstances.

I do agree with others about the rights of the child- i honestly and whole heartedly do, but the rights of a child go beyond conception and birth, the rights of a child go right through until they are old enough to take responsibility of their own lives. So if a women falls pregnant in a violent or abusive relationship, or in other circumstances that might effect the life of the child, then I think if she has an abortion she is still protecting the rights of that child. I have seen some children, especially in the last 6 months or so, that have been subjected to some horrors, that no human being should have to endure- especially not a young child, and how badly it has effected them. And while I am not saying that each of those mothers should have had an abortion, what I am saying, is that if a mother makes a choice for her unborn child by having an abortion if she is in that situation, I think she is still protecting the rights of that child.
So no it is not a black and white case, it is not always about right now, and sometimes it is about trusting women enough to know just what is right for them.

I suppose I've made some choices in my life that people have questioned, choices that were right for me at the time, I looked at the circumstances of my life and made the decision based on that.

I conceived a baby while using condoms AND on the pill. I looked at the options open to me at the time, where my life was, my age, financial circumstances etc and made a choice to not go through with the pregnancy. This was the hardest decision in my life, but I wasn't in a place in my life that I would have been a good mother.

I've also done things to my body and with my body that I know have had people making judgements based on their beliefs/morals etc, not based on mine, not based on my belief system, the set of morals that my parents instilled in me etc

Having supported a number of friends through terminations I would never ever judge another person for making this decision - yes, it is hard, yes they have made mistakes but they have lived with the consequences and it has changed who they are forever. My friend and I were talking just the other day about how she could be the mother of a 20yo and could have been tied to a person she despises for the rest of her life. However, she was able to move on and create a new life for herself based on that decision so whilst it was hard, some good did come from it. Another friend had to terminate based on becoming pregnant after being raped, should she have to carry around that reminder for the rest of her life, what about the child in the future asking about the father and being a product of violence? Again, who am I to judge? I am there to support a friend in her difficult decision.

It isn't a choice I have ever had to make but I have seen 5 friends in very different circumstances - bad relationship, rape, incompatible with life, young, psychologically unstable - make the decision to terminate. Unless you are walking in their shoes you can never fully understand why someone makes the decision that they do. Until I can fully understand I will reserve judgement and hope that I never have to be in that position myself.