So I'm here again, AND I've already cheated

This is long I know, I just thought I'd get it all out of my system and get all the details out there.

I first found BB when I was looking for answers to the supply issues I was having with DD1 - after her being born LBW and gaining under 200g in the first 3 weeks and being dehydrated I switched to expressing (which was only ever 110-240ml even on motillium a day) and formula in bottles for about a month whilst my cracked nipples healed before I tried to relactate. Long and short is, I tried EVERYTHING, and despite this was never able to lose the comps, so we mixed fed till DD1 refused the breast at 7 months.

This time I was prepared, I saw the LC before birth, I had a small but healthy baby who has a strong healthy suck, can wake to feed, wasn't in the SCN at all and who I have been putting to the breast regularly with perfect latch since birth.

So, I still never felt my milk 'come in'. What I would give to feel engorged and in pain from big, hard, full breasts! Only way I knew my milk was in is that when I squeezed my nipple white milk came out instead of colostrum.

I also have not leaked AT ALL, even with DD1 I still leaked till 6 weeks or so a bit at night.

I am totally baffled by what constitutes a wet nappy or not, I mean, I am so paranoid about whether I am getting 6 or not, and even when I do (those little wetness liners are amazing as DD2 is in sposies at moment) I am not sure if it is wet enough, it's not like it feels heavy or anything. All I am doing is worrying, worrying, worrying.

Good news is, DD2 was born at 2.96kg (but she did a poo on way out so would have been a bit heavier and prob why she didn't lose as much) and only lost 140g first 5 days. Having said that, when they weighed her 5 days later, she'd only gained 60g and although she has from day 2 had a few hours of cluster feeding (at night for the first week, lucky me) she wanted to be on the breast for over 6 hours and counting on Monday. After not having slept for well, 12 days since didn't sleep the 2 days before she was born and her day and nights were totally backwards, I was in tears when at 6 hours she didn't look like stopping and DH went up in the middle of the night and bought some formula - gave her one feed and she fell asleep finally for a few hours. Failure.

Next night I fed her through the day again (she woke a few hours after her formula feed and breastfed well before going to sleep again) first nights sleep I have had, had about 6 hours all up as DH got up for DD1 and gave me the extra couple. Have been feeding her around 2 hourly through the day (unless I can't wake her for a feed) more if she wants, I did the cluster feed on Tuesday for a few hours until 10 when gave her another bottle so could get some sleep. I don't know whether I feel good about knowing I'm not starving her, or like a failure for not feeding her constantly so my boobs get the best shot possible.
Wednesday, I was really sick with gastro, as in was in agony with cramps and passing acid so was incapable of feeding or even holding her during those times and she ended up with 2 bottles. Still got as many breastfeeds as usual.

Dr started me on Motillium on Wednesday. Today I decided no more bottles (unless we have another one of those 6 hour sessions that don't look like stopping). I THINK from weighing bubs at chemist yesterday that she is JUST back to her birthweight so still has only put on (or back on I should say) 140g in almost 2 weeks even with the bottles. I don't know if I'm dong the right thing or not, I'm swaying from thinking that I knew there was a high probability I wouldn't get a full supply with this one either and was prepared to mixed feed again, to being devastated that I don't have heaps of milk because DD LOVES breastfeeding (she hates the teat in bottle and dummy) and is so good at it and I have no pain or anything but worrying I'm going to starve my child. I don't know what I'm really asking for, there's nowhere else I can really go to vent though as I either get the (just feed more regularly from LCs who should know better and just assume I don't have any real issues) to (it's ok to bottle feed from everyone else). :wall: :wall: :wall:

Oh hun, I'm so sorry you're going through this. You're doing such a GREAT job, I want you to know that. When you say LCs, do you mean the hospital ones? It sounds as though it might be time to find someone who can come to your house, and have a really good listen and look at what's happening. If you call the ABA they should be able to suggest a few in your area. And hopefully Barb will see your post and be able to recommend someone, and give you some more ideas.

:hug:

First of all, you have not cheated by giving formula. It got you through a tough spot and that's ok.

Having said that, the formula will be affecting your supply as the less you breastfeed the less milk you make. Your baby is still tiny and I would not be expecting her to sleep through the night yet. She has a teeny tiny tummy that needs replenishing every 2 - 4 hours and sadly the reality of this is often very little sleep for the first 6 week. Also at night is when your body resticks the milk for the next day, so she will need more at night for a while. This is normal and the more you feed her at night the more milk you will make.

The tiredness is so tough though. Are you feeding her at night lying down in bed so you can get some rest too? I know for me this was a lifesaving move as I could snooze, if not have a deep sleep, whilst my baby was feeding.

With the wet nappies, consider using cloth nappipes for a short while as it is much easier to tell if they are wet or not.

Hopefully the Motillium will kick in soon and in conjunction with your DD feeding on demand you will soon find her gaining weight at a steady rate.

Good luck

T
xx

Oh, Sas! Thankfully for all of us, caring for a baby isn't about *passing* or *failing* or *cheating*. Those early days can feel like a pressure cooker - even if you've been there and done that before. (Sometimes more so because you've been there and done that before - you feel you "should know" how it works. but they are all different and we give it the best we can......and there is always another day.
Now, tell me, not counting the 6 hr marathon, how many times does she feed in 24 hours? How long is she on the breast would you say? Does she have one breast or both at a feed?
Don't worry about wees too much - if you are really concerned pop her in cloth for a couple of days - that will make the number of wees she has a lot clearer! what about poo? That's a better indication. How many of those is she having in 24 hours?
You really probably need to get back to the LC ASAP - you don't sound like you are far off track - certainly it sounds a lot more positive than your first expereince (but might I say you did a fabulous job there too!) You can certainly put this back together. Take a deep breath. It's OK. Get back to me ASAP and let me know the answer to my questions

Oh sweetie, you sound so confused and i bet you are really tired. :hug:
DON'T say you've cheated! It's not like that. It's not a competition - it's a tough gig and you are doing your best. So DON'T be hard on yourself!! :hug: Please don't use words like failure :hug: It might not be what you wanted, but it's not a failure on your part.

Your breasts will feel different second time around. Your breasts have 'learnt' from last time. It's hard not to compare the feeling - but it is meant to be different the more children you have.

Take is slowly, and be kind to yourself. You are not going to starve her, because you seem to have an awesome handle on how she is doing with wet nappies, and all that.

Can you get a sleep in over the weekend? Just some time to lie in bed with DD and feed her and relax?

I hope things pick up soon

Big hug :hug:

I know what you mean about feeling like your boobs just aren't very full. I never noticed my milk 'come in' either. In fact, when the nurse asked me if it had, I didn't even know what she meant. And I always felt like I had no milk, especially as DD was hungry every 40 minutes, and always seemed to fuss and get agitated at feeding.
Anyway I got through by just trying not to worry. Just enduring the fussiness, and trying to feed whenever she wanted, and she seemed to still be gaining weight. Anyway after about 8 weeks, it all suddenly got clearer. She still fussed at the breast every now and then, and I've only ever felt 'engorged' a couple of times (DD is 6mo now).
YOur DD isn't losing weight, she's gaining, so it doesn't sound like you have anything to worry about.
Trust in your body, and keep feeding. You're doing a great job!

I'm sorry you're struggling again Sas :hug:
I totally agree - there's no cheating here, just doing what you need to do. It's great tht she's back to birth weight already, so well done on that. I'm sure Barb can recommend a good LC to come to your home and give you some more indepth help.
Take care and be kind to yourself. You won't starve her. You just won't.
:hug:

Thank you all for the replies, it's very appreciated.
After all that I did still end up giving her not one but two bottles last night, she fussed and tugged and wanted to feed before falling asleep, than waking 5 minutes later wanting to feed again for about 3 hours before I gave her 60ml, than she still wanted to feed for another two hours, so I gave her another 60ml as was 11pm and was exhausted I put her on both breasts for a few minutes after that (which she still took even though she was full as a goog?) and she fell asleep till 5 before having a really good feed, then slept till 8:30 had another good feed, then fed hourly until 5:30 when she fell asleep, no formula yet! She would basically be happy to suck away alll day except when she's asleep, but have had to resort to a dummy between feeds to stave her a bit so can take care of my other bub. Weighed her at the chemist today and minus clothes she is 3kg which is 40g over birthweight at 2 weeks, so she's gained 180g since she was 4 days old with the comps.

Janie - I PM'd you - and also, your perseverance gives me a good kick up the bum too so thanks for that extra motivation even without words.

Traveller - I don't want her to sleep through the night, but she didn't sleep AT night for that first week, though yes, it did enable me to actually figure out how to breastfeed lying down which I could never get the knack of last time - it is def a help I agree wholeheartedly. I will have to put her in cloth for a couple of days, I am usually a clothie mum but I got given newborn nappies and her 5 o's don't fit her with the cloth nappy and the 4's SWIM on her, but I think she'll just have to be a Bag-etty Anne for a few days so I can see what's happening with cloth as you suggested.

Barb - I would say she has 10-12 feeds on a average day. She has been having one long sleep of about 4-5 hours, and 1 or 2 sleeps of 3 hours, usually following this (this has been at nighttime since that nightmare day so I am now getting some sleep - I don't mind waking for feeds, just feeding for the whole night!) and the rest of the time she is awake she is either feeding (and she almost always will fall asleep on the breast) and then mouthing away as soon as she wakes again, and this can be after as little as 10 minutes.

90% of the time she has both breasts, unless she has fallen into a sound sleep and doesn't open her mouth for the second side. Feeds are 10-20 minutes each side, depending on when she falls asleep and detaches or comes right off and starts 'fish nibbling' only. Having said that I try and listen for swallowing (when it's quiet enough) and she only swallows for a few minutes really, every couple of times she sucks, then every few times, than rarely after a few minutes except at the wee morning feed when I have the most milk.

Poos - she has usually 2 filled poo nappies a day, 3 with formula, and then just 'staining' with wet nappies. They are yellowy seedy/stringy stools. The formula one is tinged green so I know which one it is.

Lenny - Thank you. Unfortunately I can't really take a break even on the weekend to focus on just resting and feeding as we have a mobile accounting business and July just hit so DH is working round the clock and I have a 19month old as well, but I am getting sleep through the night now so it is ok.

Turtle 0 Thanks it is great to hear someone who has had breasts that feel this way that worked just fine, I was starting to think everyone's boobs must turn into bricks when the milk comes in for them to get going properly.

Marcellus 0 Ta, the private LC's in my area are too steep for us unfortunately, but I will definately go to the local breastfeeding drop in clinic here on Wednesday and see who I can find there.

hi,

To me, what it looks like that you have got a normal baby. Babies DO feed 8-12 times - on average in 24 hours. They can feed up to 18 times in 24 hours. Normal. They have no idea of day and night - so many of these feeds will be at night. The good news? It doesn't last forever! There is much going right with your breastfeeding. It is normal for babies to lose around 10% of their birthweight - and you wouldn't expect them to be back to birthweight until they are 2 weeks old. The most unusual part of this story is that she is sleeping for 4-5 hour stretch - that's a very long time for a baby that age - 3 hrs would usually be the limit - but that can be probably explained by the formula. Cluster feeds are normal. It's hard going, but we get through it, even with another child. Doesn't make it easy though

Her poos have been really green for the last few days, she doesn't appear to be in any pain, but they also look mucous-y almost - should I be worried?? My mother is saying green poo is a 'starvation poo' . . .

Green poo is sometimes an indication of too much fore milk, not enough hind milk. How long is she feeding on each side for? If she is feeding and comes off, instead of switching her to the other side I would try putting her back on the first side again. If she pulls off it could be your hindmilk is coming through quite fast so recline as you feed and gravity should slow the milk down.

Green can be quite normal.
Have you been on Antibiotics at all or has she had diarrhoea? Sometimes that can strip the gut of lactase, leading to temporary lactose overload and green poos (mroe sort of frothy though...).
Or else it could be a fast/foreceful letdown, which has the same sort of effect. Does she pull off or fuss a lot as you letdown?
The starvation poo that your mum is referring to woudl be dark green lumps of poo, indicating insufficient milk intake, which is not at all what you describe.

How did you get on with the breastfeeding clinic? Things going ok otherwise?

Traveller - Ta I've heard that - but It's not frothy at all, and she seems fine otherwise. She doesn't pull off, gulp frantically or anything like that when I do feed her and whilst I know my letdown has gotten faster (because I did some expressing before feeds last week to try and help stimulate supply and to use to top-up to try and not increase the formula and I the milk squirts at now instead of slowly trickling) I still don't really have much in there (at least not stored in there, or it would come out with the pump as letdown straight away) so think i must make milk as bub feeds so doubt very much its too much foremilk. she feeds at least 10 minutes from the side and her sucking has always slowed to comfort sucking (and usually sleeping) before she lets go and I switch breasts.

Marcellus - I don't know - how can you tell Diarrhoea? She had a very slightly blocked nose as we all had colds but has seemed well other that. She gained 180g last week which the nurse was happy with, and that was with only the one formula top up a day so mostly my milk so am chuffed about that. Other than that I don't think I'll go back there - I doubt very much she's an IBCLC as she seemed really blaze and uninterested and didn't have any advice at all. The local chemist has much better scales so I will weigh her there. You get what you pay for I suppose - they're free for a reason :rolleyes:'
Thanks for letting me know what a 'starvation poo' really looks like - I am much more at ease as is not that at all.

Am wondering after googling like mad if it might be dairy sensitivity the formula is dairy based and I have a LOT of dairy.

Issues with dairy protein is a possibility also. I'd recommend getting advice from a pead or someone like that to diagnose properly though. Lactose intolerance is often incorrectly diagnosed, for instance, but is actually extremely rare in babies and when there is an issue it's more likely to be with with protein (if anything).
DS did some funny poos on day 2 I think, which were mucousy, and our paed did a bunch of tests and mentioned the possbility of dairy protein intolerance/allergy. So maybe it'd be worth checking out. HAving said that, sometimes the poos are mucousy, and it doesn't necessarily mean there's anything seriously wrong (and DS doesn't have a problem with dairy either).
You could also try calling the ABA - they'd know what is normal for breastfed baby poo too.

Great weight gain, well done!

Sas- it sounds to me like you are doing a great job, i would try not to listen to your mum's advice that its a starvation poo (unless she is a paediatrician of course!)

My 10 week old DS has had quite a lot of green poo's, usually when he has been quite windy and not burped so well after a feed. They have been a bit mucousy lately too and as he has a bit of runny nose at the moment i have just put it down to that.

Actually, it could just be due to illness, like appletree says. Maybe just wait and see if it clears up in the next few days. If it were a more serious problem then she wouldn't be putting on weight so well.