Hard to sit back & watch...

I have a friend with her first baby, 4 months old. They have been struggling with sleep, but no more than anyone else that I know of.

She's got alot of friends on FB who are hard core Ditsy Dizzie 'cult' followers. She's just decided she's going to start following the book word for word after 2 nights of frequent wake ups. She's always been a once a night waker, but the last week & a half getting worse. I suggested a growth spurt, coming down with something. I tried saying that babies aren't made to sleep through & that it won't last for long, but its not enough & I really don't want to be over the top.

But I don't know if I can sit back & watch her put her beautiful girl through that crap. We're childhood friends & won't comment on her status to be jumped all over anymore, but I wouldn't mind some articles/links that might be helpful. I don't want her to feel like she's inadequite, but I really think she needs more info on CIO & Dizzie's bull ****.

Very tough when someone is doing sOmething so far removed from what you'd ever consider or do. I guess she is getting desperate and wants a 'fix'. Can you suggest the Wonder Weeks? There is an app for iPhone but it got terrible reviews vs the book. If you google Wonder Weeks there is a little information on each week that may help make sense of where he LO is at.
Keep supporting your friend and don't worry about what the Dizzie supporters say x

Yeah it can be really hard. I had a tricky phone call today with DH's cousin, looking for some bf advice, and she made a comment about someone saying her 4mth was "manipulating" her because she cried so cousin picked her up, apparently she's now manipulated her into knowing that if she cries she will get picked up. I got so mad, I was like "Hun she's 4mths old, she has needs and wants. She needs to be fed, clean bum, warm and safe. She wants to be with you. It's as simple as that."

So... Here's an ABA article on sleep, which mentions control crying: https://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/bf-info/sleep/wakeful

Also you could google Pinky, she has some articles on there, can't link here though.

Or - consider buying her the No Cry Sleep Solution, as a gift and presenting it to her as an alternative to Dizzie.

Thanks. I will pm her some time tonight. Give her some support & some reading on what's normal for her DD's age. (Normal normal, not what society considers normal)

Don't forget to google good old four month sleep regression ;)

Just wanted to add, talking about "normal", it is really common for many mums to feel that things go haywire around four months. Lots of reasons - wonder week, developmental leap, becoming more aware of the world and easily distracted, plus hormonally, the last of the pregnancy hormones are leaving mum's body and can affect things. It can result in an unsettled baby, a non-sleeping baby and/or a mum doubting her bf supply. Many mums lose the plot a bit around 4 months.

From a Bf perspective... If she is at all concerned about feeding or supply, or if she wants to talk to someone, tell her to call the ABA. They can help.

I think you need to tread very carefully. First baby or not, she's the mother and she should be allowed to make her own choices without being judged because her choices are different to yours or anyone else's.

I say this as the mother of a now 10 month old who, except for literally a handful of nights, hasn't slept for longer than two hours at a time all night, every night since she was 3 months old. I choose to get up to my baby each and every time she wakes. I choose to for the most part let her snuggle in, have a bit of a feed and then just let her stay there until she drops off to sleep when I put her down, all with the realisation that in less than two hours I'll be doing it all over again. I'm totally exhausted mentally, physically and emotionally and I'm finding it extremely difficult to cope with every day life, but what I'm really finding difficult to cope with are all the people who keep on at me about what I should be doing to "fix" my baby. Following Dizzie's rules certainly isn't for me, but that's my decision and I wish my family and friends supported me in it. I think the same goes for your friend, even though we're dealing with our "problem" babies in completely opposite ways.

In my job I see parenting choices I may not agree with all the time, but that's none of my business really. It can be really challenging sometimes but that's how it is. Thing is babies don't conform to what books say they are supposed to do most of the time!

I have no interest in changing her mind if she doesn't want it changed. She asks fior advice on fb & has a lot of friends who've used that book. They all say its great & she's not been interested in following it til now. But I do believe its simply because she doesn't know that a normal baby doesn't sleep through. All her friends have had people say they should, so they've all followed the book or whatever they needed to do to get baby to sleep through. She's hearing all this & hers is pretty much the only one still waking once a night at 4 months.

I think I'm almost the only one on her friends list who's kids don't sleep through (well DD3 doesn't), so I don't think that holds much value for her really. She enjoys cuddling her baby to sleep, but she's thinking of giving that up because she thinks she's been a 'naughty mummy' doing that.

Pretty sure the breast feeding is over. She couldn't do the frequent feeds. I think she gave that up about 2 months ago. Again, the oppinions of others weighed in. I held back then & I am now, because I don't want to seem like I'm pushing her my way IYGWIM. But I think she does just need to know what CIO etc involves...

I know what you mean. I've had a few friends and family members talk to me about this book. My opinion of it is quite negative and I feel the urge to share that but instead, I just say that I have read some interesting mixed reviews/ideas/opinions and that its worth doing some research on the net. I think that's really all you can do, and hope it's enough to get them curious and googling.

It's funny you bring this up. I have has a friend swear by Dizzie's methods and now a cousin is too! But both of them have openly posted Dizzie's information on my Facebook wall!
So I found a random article about how 20 years ago we as a society were not that concerned with babies not sleeping on demand (basically) and that how we've bowed to social pressure to have a 'perfect baby'
So I posted this on my page to give the others the hint!
But the saddest part for me is every. single. time. I text my friend to catch up, on weekends usually, she replies it has to be before 11am or after 2pm, because her DS is sleeping and can only sleep at home. He's now nearly 24 mths!
And my cousin, that's a whole other thread!

I would just give your friend exposure to the other options. And gently say I found a few things that you might want to try.

I would forward get some stuff in four month sleep regression. I would also look for articles on the importance of comforting children to sleep.

I don't think you are doing any more than her other friends who recommend CIO. I think it is your duty as a friend to let her know the trauma some children (and parents) feel when CIO is used.

I have similar experiences with friends too. It's frustrating and difficult.

Evolutionary parenting has a wonderful blog about infant sleep. You should be able to find it under the sleep section.

I can PM it to you if you can't find it.

You could refer her to http://www.isisonline.org.uk/
I found the information they present on research about children's sleep to be non judgemental but up front about the lack of research into controlled crying but that it does appear to have short term 'improvements' in sleeping but the possible effects (damage) is unknown as no one has studied it. This website doesn't provide a guide to what you should necessarily do but rather information on the evidence of research and allows parents to make their own informed decisions.
The other great resource I've found to inform me of my child's development including sleep to be 'The Science of Parenting'. I don't think there is a quick link on the Internet but that you actually have to get the book and read it, but it can arm parents with scientific information on which to base parenting decisions such as CC or attachment parenting.
IMO if a parent is going to instigate deprivation methods on very young children they need to do it in an informed manner.

Geez, don't you hate it when your 4 month old tries to "manipulate" you? :doh: Selfish little blighters! [sarcasm alert!!]

I used to get comments from very well-meaning friends/relatives/aquaintances ... He's using you as a dummy. He'll expect to be picked up everytime he cries. He'll never sleep on his own.

Just GRRRRRRR! Go away people.

Why have a baby if you want to keep them at arms length. I.just.don't.get.it.

We had to change our mum's group meetings to suit one mum who decided to become a follower. It used to make my boobs ache listening to her daughter cry as she sat on her lap and was firmly told that she wasn't due for a feed. It was too strict and seemed to cause the mum more anguish when her daughter didn't "perform" according to the rules of the book. She lent me her book but I just used it as a coaster for my morning coffee......

FWIW I used the Pinky routines as a guide - her book's not bad either and she often points out the differences between breast and bottle with regards to feeds! I just take everything I read or hear with a grain of salt and use the bits that work for me.

The best advice I read, and I can't remember where now, was to throw out the clock and to not become a clock watcher. It's easy if your bub is on the breast because you can tell, more or less, how long it's been since the last feed. The moment I stopped stressing that "OMG, I was only up 2 hours ago" to just going with the flow and watching his cues and listening to him, I became more relaxed and able to deal.

When people asked whether he was sleeping through, because they always feel they have to know (wtf?), I always made reference to how much I loved the middle of the night sleepy snuggles. I would also firmly state that it wasn't natural for a baby of that age to "sleep through" and, that I was quite happy to get out of bed for any of my children when they needed me, regardless of their age.

Sorry, it turned into a bit of an essay - which i can only blame on the hormones that I'm on at the moment (I think they're making me edgy) - I also didn't really answer your question.

It's hard to sit back and watch. So, if her other friends can loudly pronounce their views, why the heck can't you? You don't have to openly diss their ideas but you could just drop some ideas on what's worked for you

....which reading back to your original post is what you were asking.

Should I just delete this post?

I'd be inclined to PM her some articles that support Mums and Bubs (ie. not telling them that they are failing or broken because their baby/ies are not sleeping through). I found this to be a much less inflammatory way to go about it and let's the person read the info without it being shoved in their face and/or with the judgement of others ITMS.

I am a serial PMer lol