Confusion and small vent..LONG

Hi,

I don't know if this is the right place so maybe someone can move it if it isn't..?

I am having a problem at bounce and rhyme/toddler group. Bounce and rhyme is like a 30 minute singing group and the toddler group is mainly the same folk and a similar theme (run by the same woman) but for 2 hours. Smee generally enjoys herself and we've been liking it a lot until recently.

A mother with a 3.5 year boy old joined a few weeks ago. She seems really nice, and i don't have a problem with her per se but a few of us are feeling a bit lost with her parenting style. She introduced herself as a Gentle Parent. I was actually glad as they're a very mainstream group and i'm one of the few which BFed at all, doesn't smack etc.

The problem is that far from being a gentle parent, i can't see she is any kind of parent! She lets her son do whatever he wants.

When the instruments and books are out we have a focus on sharing, so if a kid has something for a long time and another wants it, the new kid gets the toy and the kid who had it gets MASSES of praise from everyone for giving it up (however unwillingly). But at sharetime her son won't share. Smee is only 17 months and even at 14 months i was basically taking the objects from her and praising and now she will do so on her own 70% of the time if i say "Can Esme share with x?". But when a child wants what her son has she says "Do you want to share?" and he always says "NO Mummy!" and she says, "Ok, you can share when you're ready." I guess this is fair enough but last week he had 3 instruments (there was only 6 to begin with and 7 kids at group) and wouldn't give any of them up, so most of the babies had to sit with nothing at music time. His mum doesn't seem to think this is a problem but i felt sorry for the others having to share 3 instruments among 6 when he had so many he couldn't even play any of them. The Group Leader does try to get him sharing etc. but him mum is very forceful and steps in and basically stops her everytime.

He also hits others a lot. I know this is totally normal, and to be expected, but his mum does nothing! Seriously nothing. Last week he pushed an 11month old over onto her face (which made her cry) and her mum said (very gently, not shouting at all) to the little boy "oh no no sweetie, let's be gentle with her, she's just a baby" and his mother said with venom "Do NOT say "no" to MY child" then made a big fuss of him.

Anyway i was kind of hoping with time it'd cease to be a problem (as people all get used to one another) but at this morning's group something even worse happened. Another mum had with her her 2 year old and her newborn. She was BFing the newborn and her older boy was sort of hanging on her leg. The boy in question had a wooden rattle-type thing - for toddlers, like from ELC It's a ridged block on a handle and a little wooden block attached by string to rattle over the ridges with - and he walked up and without warning hit her boy smack in the face with it. The small block (on string) swung up and hit her newborn on the back of the head. She yelled "No!" as much in shock, as we all were, and grabbed him by the arm he was holding the instrument in. She didn't pull him about, just stopped him doing it again. His mum came swooping in and grabbed him up and then, and i could NOT believe this, she started shouting at the other mum, "How dare you touch my child!? That's assault! We don't say NO to him, he's just a baby!" etc. etc. Meantime the older kid actually has a little graze (not huge but bleeding a little) and is in hysterics and the newborn has a little red mark and is screaming and screaming. :( We were all just too stunned to move for a second, then eventually i went and grabbed the hurt toddler as he knows me a bit and me and his mum took her boys and smee over to the corner for some first aid and hugs. Meantime the other mother is making loud noises about how OUR parenting attitudes are to blame (!?). Luckily both of the boys were ok, though the older one had a right egg on his brow where it caught him.

I couldn't believe it! I mean, what are we supposed to do? The newborn's mother says she's not coming anymore and there are already 1 or 2 others who are skipping groups because their kid has been knocked over or punched or sat on.

I just wonder, you guys are gentle parents....are there gentle tactics we CAN use which won't offend but will spare our kids injury? I'd follow her lead but she just sits smiling faintly at whatever he does. I KNOW Gentle Parenting doesn't mean no parenting, but i can't get to grips with where this mum is coming from. :( If Esme hits me or others i catch her hands and demonstrate stroking and say "nice to mumma/dada/whoever she's hitting" and that seems to work ok. I'd be afraid to try catching his hands after today though.

I guess in 18months he'll be too old to come, but that's Smee's whole life away.

Can anyone help?

Bec

Oh my goodness!

How can that be considered gentle parenting when it or he is hurting other children? I don't understand it. This mother has no concern about the impact of her parenting in a group situation.

Oh I pray my little girl never comes across anyone like this, I know she will but I really hope I am there to protect her:angry:

(I just deleted half my post because that got me so angry and I don't want to offend anyone)

I just want to add that I don't believe in smacking or 'naming' my child or anyone elses but if my child deliberately hit another in such a way I would definitely let her know what her actions have done and that it is wrong.

One thing I want Maya to learn early is action causes a reaction which in this case she would be shown what 'damage' she had inflicted and learn to apologize for her actions. This mother did nothing to her child but yelled at the other mum and that just astounds me. What has this boy learnt so that he won't do it again??

Oh no :( Don't be mad at him! That's why i thought i'd put this in the gentle parenting bit, because i do see that as much as my reaction is to grab all the other babies and run away from him, there should be some way to modify things.

He IS just a wee boy and as far as i can see his mum doesn't seem to be giving him even non-verbal cues about what is ok and what isn't. I really can't blame him if she's not teaching him any different. But there MUST be a gentle way of indicating that it isn't nice to hit people without me touching him? We tried for a time praising when he wasn't hitting people, but he actually is a bit bullyish, and tends to disrupt rather than join in an awful lot. Perhaps he's a bit bored singing with a room full of babies?

Bx

I definatly don't see that as gentle parenting, more like no parenting as you said. This mother certainly isn't showing a good example by yelling at other parents either. The only thing i can suggest is ask the instructor to talk to this woman. Saying no to a child doesn't mean you're not a gentle parent, it's the way in which you say it. I think your friend handled herself quite well in the situation to be honest. I would try and keep Esme away from this child until such time that he can either play nicely or he leaves. Maybe if you all did that this mother might get the idea that something is wrong!

ETA: With telling the child it's not right to hit etc without touching him, the only way i can see a way around that is just to say, no we shouldn't hit or something similar but by the sounds of his mother i dont think that'd be acceptable either!

Hoobley - when I read your post I did at first become angry at the child but I agree its not the boys fault, hes still learning right from wrong and its up to us as the parent to teach them that.

What worries me is how is this boy going to interact at primary school??:(

Well one of the other girls just called to say she won't be at bounce and rhyme tomorrow :(

Interestingly though, she told me the gentle mum told her she came from a violent/abusive home and she was raising her kid different. Perhaps her minimalist parenting is a reaction against her own childhood?

Does anyone have any ideas as to how this can be addressed? I think the group leader has talked to her but we're in a deprivation area and they are very inclusive. It's a free government-funded service, and they try to reach everyone and not exclude if you know what i mean. SO as much as they try to talk to us they never ask people not to come back etc.

It bothers me too because we're quite a supportive group but this mum is missing out on that because people feel they can't talk to her. We have had other kids who are very rough/aggressive come and because their mothers are seen to actively try to prevent it (not always by non-gentle means either) there's more empathy, you know? Perhaps i should make more effort to get to know her?

Bx

Bec if it was me..and ive actually been in a similar situation, i would just keep reiterating (maybe a little louder!) what you do with your darling smee. Sounds like you are giving mum all the verbal and non verbal cues already..keep them coming, they are bound to sink in..other than that, hope that she is perhaps a little bit over the group and will find something else for her little boy to do, rather than interfere with the safety of the other little littlies there.

Sorry..posted at the same time. Given mums background, it does put a different spin on it. Its hard sometimes to see our own kids not as an extension of ourselves, but little people in their own right..for her, it might be completely reasonable to be acting this way in protecting her son( her own inner child)
Jo

Bec, you are so woderful to want to help this woman - any child whose mother was OK with said child hurting my DS wouldn't be on the top of my list of people to befriend!

No ideas how to help, but I think it sounds like you're doing as much as possible to help this woman, I hope she appreciates it.

When DS hits me or things which are not for hitting (a phase at the moment), i stop his hand and say "soft touch" or "gentle touch, like this" and demonstrate how to do it rather than hitting. I avoid saying good boy when he copies the gentle touch motion, instead i say things like "thats better because it doesn't hurt my head" or "when you touch the tv gently it doesn't get broken". I prefer to explain WHY my alternative is a better one rather than just praising him and labelling him a "good" boy. I'd rather he understood that he should choose to touch gently so as not to hurt someone as opposed to getting told he's a good boy.

But in this case it isn't your child so its really a hard one to address. I don't think what the other mother did was wrong, clearly her maternal instinct kicked in and as the boys mother didn't take any action i'm sure she just reacted. I think had this incident not happened, you may have had a few weeks to make some random comments about gentle discipline thats worked with you and esme. For example you could be chatting and say: "oh esme was hitting things all the time recently, but then i started doing such and such and now she's really learning it isn't right" for example. But with this incident occurring and people wanting to leave the group you may not have time for that kind of gentle approach with her (lol).... i think maybe a swift chat might be in order, perhaps you could express the concerns of yourself and the other parents and explain the significant effect his behaviour is having and that maybe for the sake of keeping the group together she might consider being a bit more proactive on the discipline side when it comes to her son harming others.

Good luck with it, and i agree with the others, its lovely of you to want to help her at a time where others just want to write her off. You never know, she may really be struggling to find her parenting niche and may not want to admit to herself that this isn't working.

Thanks guys, i think i'll see how it is tomorrow - i think the chances are it'll just be me and her at this rate! Poor Smee! I hope we survive okay. If it's just the two of us i might walk the long way home to keep her company and see if i can talk to her a little.

I guess i feel more i should befriend her especially as among the group mums i'm known as the more gentle one and when he's kicking off they all give me quizzical little glances to see what i'll do. When Smee kicks off i do just say as i hold her hand and stroke "NICE to mama" etc. and then tell her how lovely it is when she strokes me instead of hitting. I might also say "Please don't hit mummy, we don't hit in this family" or "hitting isn't nice" and then immediately "oh but it's so nice when you're gentle, THANKYOU Esme". She still hits me when she's really frustrated but when she's enraged and hitting out i immediately find her a pillow or sofa or (at group) a floor cushion to hit and tell her to let it all out. I think the other mums sometimes think i'm a bit mad, but they all seem to welcome me in their midst whereas the more extreme her son is the less she is liked, and actually she herself is a nice woman.

I think also some of the problem is i feel like because i haven't read any of the books and am parenting more from my heart (if that makes sense) i'm missing the point when she might actually be thinking i know WHY she is the way she is (because the others joke, gently, about me being gentle). But i DO say "no" to Esme, and i am very strict about some things, like hitting and especially being rough around little babies, and i do use the word "naughty" too (i don't say "You're naughty" but i will say "that's naughty" if it's the 3rd time in 4 minutes she's done something a bit naughty (though i think most children her age are easier to distract than her, but that's another story LOL).

I can't help feeling now (been thinking about it in the pool while working out) that it's something you do see, given what she said about her childhood. She's not doing it how her parents did it but it's like because she can't parent from her experience she's parenting from a bit of a void, you know? Or maybe not, maybe she's actually read some wonderful book i haven't which explains all why not saying no etc. is a good idea. I actually get the impression that her son isn't very happy. He's very disruptive and destructive. LIke there's no boundaries to push so he just gets farther and farther away from the way everyone else is behaving and no-one stops him and he seems more and more lost and unhappy. I've never seen him really "join in", it's always take over or hit someone and break up the activity, he even yells louder and louder during the songtime to drown us out! I never really believed you could "spoil" a child like this but i guess that's what he seems, spoilt and demanding. She does give him lots of attention, and masses of positive feedback, even when i wouldn't - i once heard her say "that's so creative" when he'd ripped up another kid's crayoning. Almost as if she's praising everything he does rather than praising the good bits and ignoring the undesirable behaviour (which is what i try to do - yesterday i sat in silence while Smee BIT me, 'no reaction' i told myself as my eyes watered, and it worked, she stopped and hasn't done it since - fingers crossed :))...

I just wish, in a way, that Esme would hit someone so i could lead by example, but sadly she's not very violent except with me (and even then, only when angry/frustrated) - imagine being sad about that! LOL.

Well this has made me rethink my own methods so that isn't a bad thing is it? I guess it's just with the newborn being hurt it's all gotten a bit heavy now. We shall see what tomorrow brings.

Bx

Wow. I don't know how I would react.

I honestly had the problem with Matilda being aggressive towards other children in play group situations or she would be sitting in the corner tantruming. I often become less of the gentle parent than I would like to be. However, I am also told alot to smack my child to teach her a lesson :rolleyes:

Back to the OT. Somethings I do with Matilda when she gets aggressive. 1. I stop her before it gets bad, I watch her & know when she is about to cross the line and I gently step in and say "Matilda, have a look at this toy, can you show me how it works?" or something to distract her. 2. if her mind is set on destruction... I take her outside the group and say "Matilda, you can not snatch toys off other children, it makes them feel sad"

opps I could go on and on about it, but I think leading by example is the best way... too bad there isn't any babies who behave badly so the mum can see.

Although, maybe she wouldn't agree anyway. Maybe she can't agree with parenting because of her past. We have some classmates of Matilda's at Montesori and the father has asked the teacher not to reprimand the child in class... now luckily the teacher said she was unable to treat any child differently to others in consequences. But I can see how it could pose a huge problem for the poor children when they get older.

I dunno about this. TBH, and this probably makes me a bad person if I were in that situation I would be trying to avoid this parent/child combo at all costs. Purely because I have seen how easy it is for behaviour to rub off onto our own children and as much as we try hard to teach our children the right thing, battles come and go that can be challenging enough with regards to parenting the last thing I want is to add someone else's issues to that mix. I also would be sticking up for my child, in a gentle way, as I often see when I'm out and about either the parent that does nothing waiting for the other child's parent to step in or you see the overprotective banshee mother who really goes overboard by screaming or belittling the child which is completely unnecessary and hypocritical because I'm sure if it were in reverse that parent would got ballistic if someone did that to their child. So I would be sure to show Esme that you will protect her from situations like that, but in a gentle way show her the tools to use herself so she doesn't lead by example and use the tools that this child chooses to use. It also shows a child that she is just as valuable as another by having her boundaries and space respected, when that falls to the wayside you are more likely to see confidence issues.

I wouldn't be rude to the mother, or try to isolate her, but I wouldn't try to fix or change the situation because I have a FIL who has very similar parenting techniques due to similar circumstances and whilst I love him to death his lovely wife has tried to encourage him to be different over 30+ years and he's still the same with his grandkids... He loves them so much he is scared of impacting on them in a negative way so he tries not to impact at all.

As for how I would interact with the child I would treat the child as I would treat my own, I would be firm but fair and if the mother is prone to talking for the child I would try and get in first. I would also remove my child from the situation if the mother couldn't stop their child from hurting mine, so say we are all sitting down in close proximity and the child is upsetting mine I would try distracting that child, encouraging that child to do the right thing and then if that didn't work I would move away, as thats how I would want my child to deal with that situation when she was 3 or 4 at Kinder. And I'm always thinking about the bigger picture. If you want to concrete certain behaviours then you need to start at the beginning. I would also praise the child for sharing and praise my child for sharing too. Often its something simple like praise which can change a child's whole outlook on a situation.

I feel so sad for this family as I'm sure the mother's heart is breaking on a daily basis, and she is probably riddled with guilt over the smallest thing. As for the child he is probably very confused.

Goodluck hon,

ETA: I'm a bit slow today... just read she overpraises so praise may not work. Which is so sad, because when used correctly it can be the most useful tool there is. Unfortunately this makes me come back to my first statement, avoid at all costs. For me its just not worth it.

Bec, I haven't read all the rest of the posts because I should be tidying but, just quickly, I was wondering if maybe you could invite the other mum for a coffee after the group and talk with her about being a mum. Not as in telling her how it's done but just saying this is what I do/want to do and sharing your ideas with her. I'm sure that if you're as eloquent in person as with the written word you can find a way to suggest that maybe her son isn't getting all thet he could from the group because he's not learning the lessons of sharing etc without hurting her feelings or questioning her ability to be a good mum.
It sounds like her heart is in the right place but she needs some techniques for gentle discipline.

If gentle persuasion doesn't work then I'd just steer clear of them both - that's not nice I know but sometimes we need to put the needs of ourselves before nicetiees.

How about buying her a book on Gentle Parenting that includes a section (or more) on encouraging positive behaviours and discouraging negative ones in a gentle way. I'm sure there must be something out there that does this. She might even thank you for it because she probably doesn't want her son to be avoided but just doesn't know what to do differently without seeming too harsh. You could explain to her when you give it to her that you too believe in gently parenting and understand how difficult it can sometimes be to know how to go about certain things. And that sometimes things that seem gently might not be - ie ignoring bad behaviour isn't gentle at all because it causes low self-esteem just as much as harsh discipline, and that it will ultimately lead to an unhappy child that no-one wants to play with. Of course be subtle in the way you word that!

Just to add a little thought to Melanie's suggestion - I think I might be a little offended if someone (other than my parents or closest friends) bought me a book on parenting. (Maybe I'm a little sensitive! :rolleyes:) But I would gladly take a book recommendation -ie. "I just read this great book at the library called "blahblahblah" and really loved it! I'd highly recommend it, it's so useful for these parenting dilemmas. etc, etc." Of course, you do have to know of a good book then, :), but at least you don't have to shell out the money for it, and if she is interested, she'll pursue it.
The other thing is, if all the other mums are becoming offended and avoiding her at playgroup, she will not feel welcome, and will cease to come, I'd guess. Which is really too bad for her and her son - he's going to need help! Gradeschool will be one thing, just wait until he's 16! But you will no longer have to worry about Smee's safety!
Hope your next meeting goes better!

Bec, I have read a book that had a "never say no, never tell off, praise always" thing in - didn't buy it though. Children need to hear "no!". This lad does seem to be searching for the "no" with the behaviour you describe - I tend to tell DS that "We/Mummy don't like scratching, we like cuddles. Cuddles! Oh, thank you Liebling, Mummy enjoyed that cuddle." or something like that. That's not a no, but maybe something you could try if this lad gets agressive again.

Well she was there and her boy was as wild as ever! Smee was a bit overtired and grumpy though which was quite helpful as it allowed me to demonstrate gently discouraging assault and encourage quiet time(if she's feeling grumpy) and togetherness (for comfort).

Someone else brought their daughter and the daughter's newborn, so we were all a bit rigid with fea but fortunately nothing too terrible occurred.

I walked a little bit with her but she was in a hurry to get home for something so only chatted briefly. We talked about Smee's carrier (meitai) and her bad back and inability to use one, which she seemed to think needed to be compensated for with positivity. I asked if her son had many friends and she said, horribly ominously, "no too many, still we've got each other eh son?"

I am now seriously wondering if she sees him as a best buddy for her, a bit "me and him against the world" sort of thing. I talked a little bit about parenting but she actually said "Well he's never really naughty, a bit mischevious, but then what baby boy isn't?" In my head i was thinking a) he's nearly 4, and b) he's going to grow up to be a murderer at this rate.

I'll go on talking to her about it if the opportunity arises but even i'm put off by her he-can-do-no-wrong attitude.

Bx

It sounds like she doesn't have many friends herself, perhaps thats why she's so lenient with him? To keep him happy and close to her. Good on your for making the effort with her, don't be put off by her attitude, it may just be a front.