AARGH I need some encouragement - long sorry

OK, I dunno where I should post this, maybe in the rant room, but I'm not sure so here goes.
Sadly it's 4 am and I've been awake since 2 am (dd needed feeding) - no prob with feeding her, but can't get back to sleep, and am listening to the silent minutes ticking b y as she sleeps one of the best nights we've had in a long time.
Today, got told by CHN that I probably have serious PND. Obviously, no-one wants that, but if I have it, I have it & want to get all the help I need, BUT, I don't think I've got it, or if I do, not so seriously. I think I'm having trouble coping & do have some anxiety issues at the moment, but I don't want for 'me' to be seen as the sole problem. Now I've had time to reflect on lots of the questions I was asked, I don't think that I gave her an accurate picture of some issues, like appetite, fatigue etc. Unfortunately, lots of these questions were asked when I was upset because DD wouldn't go to sleep (again) and I hadn't been able to get some breakfast, because of her & the disaster in the kitchen which I didn't get to the night before because I went to bed (tired & slept). OK, I know I'm awake now, but it's because AF is about to visit - lucky me (I always get like this when stressed) and because I'm so stressed about being told I have a problem and that I probably need medication & help. I have no problem with the help at all, but SO don't want medication, and don't necessarily think I need it. Ironically, I suspect I WOULD spiral into a major depression if I have to have it, because I'm bfing my dd, and no way do I want to wean (we've come thru too much already) and no way do I want drugs, because there is autism in my family and I feel that I don't want toxins to be leached onto her.
The other thing is that my 6 mo daughter, who you could set the clock by when she was first born, and up to 3 months - settled, slept well, going better than the textbook on night sleeping - has become progressively worse since then.
She's awake needing the dummy lots of the night, and at least 1 or 2 feeds. I totally don't mind the feeding - she needs it, and they are the best feeds we have - she's too distracted to eat properly. The dummy gets me. Oh how I sometimes regret giving her one. But I know it helped her at the time. Then she's up from 4.30 am onwards. After that feed I usually can't get her back to sleep for long, more than 30 min, and that's usually after lying listening to her squealing & giggling next to me for some time before I try patting her off (sometimes works, sometimes not). so taht's hardly conducive to me making up for some lost sleep.
We've had Breast refusal issues since 10 wks of age, which have gradually resolved, but we still have to sit in a dark, quiet place, with me absolutely still to try to get her to feed reasonably well.
DD has done record lack of sleeping during the day lately. 40 minutes (in total) today. 45 minutes yesterday - & I spent 1.5 hrs getting her to sleep. And all the strategies I used to use don't work any more, so I don't know what to do. We got sent on a sleep & settling course - & have been doing all the right things, and got no new ideas "just keep using your settling techniques' - well, they're not working, so what else can I do? So on a good day, I might get 30 min to myself, after battling with her for up to an hour. More often than not, I'm giving up on getting her to sleep. It's not working any way. If she just didn't need the sleep I wouldn't mind if she was up all day, but the poor kid is so tired, and I'm getting so stressed with the groundhog day of 'baby tired, put baby to bed, baby wired, spend an hour settling her, give up, get baby up'. And because we were so good about following all the 'settling rules' she won't go to sleep in my arms because she wants her bed. Thank goodness I actually 'broke' those rules & took her to bed with me occasionally so she's used to it & will sometimes sleep there.
So, of course I'm losing confidence. I haven't had enough sleep for 6 months, and it's been worse for the last 3 (I'm someone who normally needs around 10 hours) - I knew that was par for the course, but it's tough that it's gotten worse, not better. And now I can't even get some time to nap / time out / get anything done / get my planning for work done during the day.
DH used to give me a break by giving her a bottle of EBM on weekends mornings, but we can't do that any more because she won't take a bottle any more, and altho she can & will drink water from a cup won't take milk.
Of course, I can't concentrate - I'm not getting enough sleep or time in any kind of block to concentrate on getting anything done (after I've finished the desperate run for some food once she is either asleep, or at least in her cot - crying,)
When we are any where other than home (i.e. pram, away, someone else's house) she's even worse at sleeping.
The strategies that have always worked for her, aren't working any more.:wall:
We also may possibly have some issues with food intolerance, so I'm trying to avoid a whole stack of food. (another thing to mess with my head). After being reassured not to worry about her smelly poos/wind, I've finally taken her to the paediatrician to find out it could be a cows milk protein intolerance or something ... who knows what ... so now investigating, ruling out any infections and going off dairy. I'm really happy to do this if it helps her. But it's one more thing. I also think a lot of her unsettled sleep has to do with this issue from talking to other mums & just gut instinct, but I need help from people who know a bit more about it than me, or who can help me solve the gut problem so she can sleep.
I also have chronic pain with tenosynovitis (both wrists) and an old hip problem that I don't have time to go see the physio about again, and don't want to take too many painkillers for because I don't want it affecting her.

It doesn't help that everyone looks at her - beautiful, happy, content and says ' well you must be doing a good job, look how happy she is, what a good baby, you have nothing to worry about" - Ok, i'll take a little credit for that, we don't let her cry & have always responded to her needs & are very fortunate that she's a content soul who doesn't cry a lot - but that makes me feel like more of a failure for not coping very well, as she's still hard work altho she doesn't look like it.

So as you can see, I've got a stack of the markers of PND, but I don't think it's that clear cut. I'm really happy & keen to get help for me, but at the moment, I'd just like some help sorting out her day so that I can have some routine & time out for me. Whether that be with her awake or asleep - I can do either, but I just don't know what to do any more.

What I really need now is someone to come to the house and help me figure out what to do with her. I was going well getting thru the stresses & learning of having a little baby, until things stopped working.
We're booked into Karitane soon, which I was very nervous about, because I'm just not letting her cry it out, in any form. I don't agree with it and it won't work for her anyway, she just gets more upset if you don't go to her. But now I'm hoping that they'll respect that (I've heard encouraging things) and at least I'll get someone with me to watch her, and see what's going on for her and make some more suggestions for me. The other option I'm being encouraged to take is to go to a PND MOther/Baby Unit (which does sound fantastic) & get help. but I'm concerned that then it will be me focused on (and yes, I could use some help), but none of DD's issues, and I just feel so sure that something is not right with her.

And now I'm afraid that any attempt on my part to explain that actually I do have an appetite, and I do sleep (I just don't get much chance), and I'm exhausted because I have a massive sleep debt that's not being made up at all, will just be interpreted as my rationalising my depression. I guess I'm just really afraid of being pushed down a pathway of medication &/or weaning which I just don't want.

I'm going to ring up CHN team tomorrow & try to have a talk with someone, but I just needed to get it off my chest, because I can't see the same nurse til Monday to explain things more.

sorry for the long rant, and sorry if any of this is inappropriate, I just needed to get it out. If anyone's got any encouragement or suggestions I could sure use it right now.

Jus, first of all hun a huge hug for you :hug: Well done on getting all of that out and down here. I'm sure just doing that is a huge help to you.

Secondly, sleep deprivation it the worst. That's why they use it as torture treatment. You could have so easily just described my days and nights lately. Although Abbey is up for 4 or 5 feeds over night. It is so very draining to keep a 6 month old entertained in the day. Not like they will watch a dvd.

I don't think you sound neccesarily PND, I think more that you are very sleep deprived and things are just piling up on you. It happens to the best of us hun. It's amazing what a good sleep or break from the babies can do for you. Do you have a gf or your mum or MIL that can come over and give you a hand. Even just looking after DD so you can have a shower and eat something. I know if I don't get to shower it really get's to me. And you can bet when you haven't showered someone will knock on the door.

Can you of a daytime just take the phone off the hook and go and lay down on your bed with bub ? Put her on the boob and just relax, You will both probably fall to sleep and that's a good thing. You are both bonding, feeding and resting at the same time. Even if it's only for an hour or 2 you will feel so much the better for it.

Do you get out of the house often ? Maybe a walk in a nearby park with a friend or catching up with some other BB girls. I'm in Sydney too, not sure where you are though.

Not sure really what else to say hun other than that your feelings are validated. You sound perfectly normal to me, if your not, than neither am I ;)

Take one day at a time and I promise it will get better :hug:

Just a couple of thoughts...

Firstly :hug: - it sounds like you are coping with a lot at the moment.

Karitane should be ok. Pretty sure they are not advising CC - when I took DS (at 3 weeks) they showed me settling techniques - but not crying. Having someone else in the room to watch what is happening can be so helpful.

Have you tried getting your DD to sleep in a sling? Often if I put DS in the Hug-A-Bub and go for a walk, he will fall asleep (I do need to put a muslin wrap over the top so he can't see out).

Definitely sounds like you could do with a break - I second Trish's advice to get a little time out - see if DH/Mum/MIL/friend can mind her for a couple of hours between feeds while you rest, or catch-up on some housework (whatever makes you feel better - I find I'm happier if my house is clean, even if I'm tired :lol:).

If you don't have someone to mind DD, maybe you could try taking her for a walk in the pram? DS used to hate the pram - but we've been going for long walks in the afternoons & enjoys it now (and even drops off to sleep from time to time!). I feel so much better when I've had some sunshine & mild exercise (which are natural "blues busters").

Finally, no-one can force you to wean & go on medication. Is there someone you trust/respect who you can talk about your options with? (eg. your GP??). If it were me, I'd try all other avenues before going down the medication path (time out, exercise, eating well, chatting with friends, counselling, Karitane, etc) - especially since that's not where you want to go.

Thank you so much girls for letting me get that off my chest. I went back to bed so much more relaxed (in time for DD to wake & want feeding!). Then we both (eventually) fell asleep til 8 which was lovely.

I was elated when I actually got her to fall asleep this morning (only 20 min, but that's still better than not) by staying relaxed & having a back-up plan if it didn't work.

When she did wake I took her out for a walk - I just love walking & it keeps me sane, but I haven't done it much because I've been waiting to be less sleep deprived. After your encouragement, have decided to walk every day no matter how I feel. It also kept Ella entertained for a while. She was asleep with her eyes open the poor kid, but at least she & I were both happy.

I used all your suggestions today! We called MIL who was so happy to help - I think she's been waiting to be asked, so not just good for me, but good for Ella & good for family relationships all round. She & FIL did heaps to help, not least cuddling DD who really was quite grumpy by then. MIL sent us off to bed this arvo & did a few more things. Just good to have someone else there really.

Have rung CHN & had a good talk with one of the nurses, explaining that I don't really think it's (severe) PND, but lots of stress/anxiety (which I do need to get better at handling) because of all the things going on, and that what I need right now is help to figure out what to do with Ella. She was very helpful, affirming & gave a few more good suggestions & encouragement. I really do live in an area of an amazing local health system.

I can't thank you enough for giving me some tips on some good coping strategies. I'm thinking of sticking them over the cot so when I start getting sterssed about not-sleeping I don't feel so hemmed in.
I really appreciate the good feedback about Karitane. They say they don't do controlled crying any more, but I was still a little nervous, so it's great to hear a good report. Even if I just get a little bit of a break that will help.

Thank you again girls, I just can't tell you how much reading your posts this morning helped to change the course of today!:clap:

Aww Jus I am so glad to be able to help you out. And I am glad that you are in a better frame of mind and feeling more positive.

Good on your IL's for coming around to help out. And good on you for getting out into the fresh air with bub.

Hugs for you huni. This is one positive day in the right direction.

Oh and I love your idea of printing up some ideas to put on the wall. A few affirmations around is a great idea :hug:

Jus - just wanted to let you know that when my baby (now 14mths) was 6mths old he sounded exactly like your little girl. Terrible day sleeper, bit better at night but still often difficult to get back to sleep after a night feed, often awake bewteen 3-5am trying to settle. It was dreadful and I can totally understand how you feel. Some babies can be put to bed with little fuss and stay there for hours in the day and that just amazes me. I too thought my DS had some digestive issues although we didn't end up totally identifying what it was (other than reflux which was resolved around 6-7mths age). Anyway, it was a loooooong first year for us. Things picked up markedly around 9-10mhs of age. By 12mths I started to finally enjoy my baby and now things are just fantastic. He now sleeps 13hrs uninterrupted overnight and one nap for about 90mins during the day - bliss! It took a long time to get there and TBH I think for us it was just an age related issue (he got 8 teeth between 5-9mths of age). YOU WILL GET THERE. I believe I felt like you (not coping) while going through this but I did not have PND. If your DD's sleep issues were resolved do you think you would have PND? If not, then I personally doubt you have it as sleep issues and settling a baby for hours on end is torturous IMO. Anyone doing this would feel they were not coping. Please keep letting us know your thoughts and how you are going.

Hi Jus

I can really relate to your story. My baby is almost 12 mths. He has been a terrible sleeper and we went and did a residential stay for 7 nights at a Mother Baby unit which was great to give me a break. The sleep deprivation is shocking. My MHCN also suggested I might be suffering from PND and that I attend at PND support group. I didn't think I had PND but it was just a combination of adjusting to parenthood, exhaustion and the constant daily sleeping battles getting me down. The interesting thing once I started going to the group was it confirmed that I wasn't suffering from PND or if I was it was very mild compared to the issues and experiences that the other women were talking about. It was still useful though to talk about parenting issues and strategies to deal with anxiety.

The other thing the group made me realise in relation to the sleeping battle was it was more to do with him than me. I could do the same thing for 3 days in a row and get three different results. Being able to distance myself a bit helped. It's not about me, it's about him. I would give him an opportunity to sleep, if he choose not to take that opportunity my cut off was 30 mins. He would still be tired so I would take him out in the pram and if he was really tired he would sleep if not he wouldn't. Then we would start again in the afternoon. If I kept going longer than 30 mins I would get angry and upset so would he. Having a cut off of 30 mins took the pressure off. It also allowed me to start enjoying time with him more instead of carrying on feeling irriatated by the sleeping issues.

Sounds like you are starting to put some good things in place to help you through this very difficult time. It can't last forever eventually they will grow up and move out of home :) Good luck!

Oh Jus, you poor love. What you typed at 4 something this morning could have come from me at that stage.
I did the same as you though. Made it a priority every day to go for a walk. Improved my general mood no end.

Lana also gives fantastic advice and in hindsight is what happend to us, we just didn't see it.
I had an epiphany at around 7 months. My world was caving in just because of basic sleep deprivation. When I decided to step back and do what Darcy needed, not what everybody said she needed - it got easier. I laid with her, I co-slept, i wore her in a sling. I have spent many hours holding a hand next to a cot. At first it was a pain, but then I started to think about that time differently. Now I meditate or read if I'm stuck next to her bed. Like animals they take their emotional reading off you and if you're stressed - they're stressed. Finding my zen helped my bubba find hers.
Unfortunately my PND and OCD got worse, but at least I was getting some sleep.
I didn't want to take drugs either (different reasons to you though - i'm a cop and they would have taken my gun away - preserving my work persona was my last peice of normality in my world at that stage). I worked really hard with a community health counsellor and with the walking was able to get my life back under control.

I believe you can do it too. Ask to speak with a counsellor if you feel you need to - even if it's to verify that you don't have PND.
Belive in you. You are a great mum doing all the right things.

Oh Jus you poor thing I know how hard it's been for you and you have all my sympathy and support. Just for the record- and i like to think that having seen you in person and having a social work degree I'm a reasonably good judge of this- I really don't think you have PND and you are, as you said, just sleep deprived, stressed and exhausted.
I know what you mean about people saying 'oh she's such a good baby' and feeling bad because you are not feeling like you're coping- I get the same thing with Ty and I think to myself 'lots of people have it worse than me- am I just feeling sorry for myself?' and as I've said to you, it's all relative- Ella was an exceptionally easy baby for weeks there and now you are going through this it's so hard because it's new- if it had been like this the whole time you'd either be in an asylum ;) or really blas'e about it by now ykwim? You are doing a fantastic job and doing what you can and being an amazing, selfless, kind, caring and compassionate mum- better than to be expected at the moment!!
Trust your gut instinct with Ella's health. It might be one of those things that resolves itself before you even find out what it is but give yourself a pat on the back for having the instinct and trying to find out what it is.
Going for a walk's a really good idea- always cheers me up. Speaking of, if you want some walking company come knock on my door- I'm always up for it and I might even get a sleep out of Ty!! :o
Also, if you ever need some help or just someone to have a coffee (or some kind of dairy and caffeine free beverage and a chat and a cry with, I'm here for that too. Tony can take Ty in the arvos, he's home early, and I'd be more than happy to sit with Ella for a while while you get stuff done or do it for you- I'm a suprisingly good and quick house keeper ;)
I'm here if you need me. I know you've got heaps of support but I'm just throwing my hat in the ring too- too much support is not a bad thing.
In the meantime, huge hugs for you. Please know that you are a fantastic mum, Ella is a beautiful bubs with her own distinct personality and you are doing the very best job you can.

Yaaay! I love this place, so much fab advice!

I'm sleep deprived too, so can't add much but it sounds like you are a fabbo mummy, it's easy to doubt yourself when you have nooooo sleep. xoxoxoxoxo!

Aww guys, you've brought tears to my eyes (no, they're not PND tears, and even if they were that would be OK, just normal mummy-hormonal tears), at your kindness & encouragement.

Thank you so much all for sharing your stories (see the buzzing of fatigue/tinnitus in my head is preventing me from remembering any names, but I totally appreciate you). I do think there is something up with Ella, I had her in bed with me this early morning, and she was grunting, then giggling (totally wired) & couldn't get to sleep til I patted her off (then it was amazingly quick, so she was tired & wanted to sleep). At least we're getting this looked into.

I appreciate the feedback about joining the PND support group - I was given a great book on PND by the nurse, but although some things I could relate to (watching the housework pile up all around me - who wouldn't get stressed about that when they don't get a chance to do any of it!), as I kept reading I thought 'this just isn't me' - I do enjoy Ella, except the really exhausting days, and doing what you suggested about the 30 min rule (except I haven't even got that much patience at the moment - it's around 10 min unless I can see she's close to sleep) has really taken a load off.
I also asked myself last night, 'why am I so stressed if she doesn't sleep' - and tried to put it in the perspective that she will eventually.

'puter's dying (no battery) will finish later ...

I say go with your instincts, Jus. If you don't think you have PND then you prob don't (and not just cause you may be in denial as some might say). If you think something is up with Ella, when you are ready get her checked until you are happy with what someone says. And you are doing a terrific job caring for Ella so much.

Hi again Jus,
I should've added this yesterday but I only thought of it after- one thing I do with Ty is to lay on the bed with him, wrapped up, and i lay there next to him reading a book for half hour or so. If he goes to sleep (which happens about 50% of the time) then great, so do I, but if not then I just think of it as chill out time for both him and me. Takes the pressure off me to get him to go to sleep and i think maybe bubs are just like us- half hours rest is sometimes as good as a sort nap for rejuvination and improving the mood. And you relaxcing yourself and conserving energy too (and I will take any excuse to clock up half hour reading time!!)

thanks again for the extra tips. Have just come (given up) from doing battle (well it feels like it, altho I was staying 'relaxed' for her) for nearly an hour to get her to sleep (I couldn't see a clock 'cos it was dark or I would have given up sooner). She amazes me the way she fights sleep. She was so nearly (or actually) asleep so many times, but just absolutely resists it! DH has succeeded in getting her to sleep twice today, my attempts have failed. Given that your self-esteem is generally based on your effectiveness in doing things, it's no wonder I feel a bit down - grrr... Need to focus on what you said about it being her not me.
Anyway, will try & stay positive. Have gone for my walk today so that is a good thing.
Thanks for the encouragement Dierdre. We are in the process of investigating with the paed. & will go to Karitane for them to observe her. I'm not expecting any real solutions with sleep/settling tbh. just want a break & some support & insight with what might be going on. After speaking to a friend about her babies with allergies a lot of what ella is doing is very similar. But it will be good to have experts seeing her behaviour and I've heard you actually get a whole night's sleep - they take the baby for the first night. I hope that's not a false rumour! :) As per one of the earlier comments, if I could just get some sleep or some guaranteed time each day I would be functioning so much better.
I do chill on the bed with her Lori & it's a lovely time. I guess my aim has been generally to get her to sleep, so will try & revise. Unfortunately, she's taken to squealing lately while ever we do that (as she will in her cot if you can't actually get her to sleep). Maybe I should get some good ear plugs so at least I can sleep/relax.
I know what you mean about doing what she needs & what I need. I realised recently that I had to stop fighting the night-waking etc. I wanted to get rid of the dummy (that's often what she wants), but just had a feeling she really needs it - she may be in pain. So now I'm trying to shift focus onto surviving the situation rather than changing it. Tried to get a co-sleeper cot (DH doesn't really want to be kicked out - altho, him tossing & turning doesn't help my sleep!), but too exxy, so am getting a cot for our room now so I can get some more sleep. Actually I like having her in bed with me (easier), but have to keep on convincing dh. We're also giving her the dummy to play with all the time so she can learn to put it in herself eventually. Unfortunately she needs to be wrapped or she disturbs herself (or should I say disturbs herself more ???)

I also spoke to a friend who did have PND & who knows me well. she didn't think that's what it is either, just huge anxiety in a stressful situation. Probably could use some counselling and would appreciate it, but tbh i just don't feel I have the time.
Am feeling very determined to keep up with the strategies & stick to them & pull myself thru all this.
Thank you for the encouragement Jac. I'm already envisaging her 1st birthday party - not to wish the time away but to remind me it's not that far off, look how quick we got to 6 mo. So if there's improvement at 8/9 mo hey, even better & surely by then she can find her own dummy sometimes!

I also remembered something I learned on a course on resilience (I'm a teacher, with a psych degree as well so v. interesting). There's a whole movement called 'positive psychology' which is focused on psychological wellbeing rather than psych dysfunction, and they have developed a strategy which is more effective than prozac in improving mood in those with severe depression. Thought I'd share it in case it benefits someone else. It's called the 3 blessings. At the end of each day you think back to 3 things that were good/you enjoyed etc. in the day, and bring them to mind. You also have to bring to mind what it was that you did that influenced/caused that good thing. One of mine for yesterdays was that when MIL had Ella, she held out her hands because she wanted me to take her (first time ever! Yeh, that made me all gooey inside), and I figured my role in that is because I am a good mum who is loving & kind (most of the time) & meets her needs so she feels safe and is 'loving me back' in her little baby way.

Thank you all again. I suspect I will be coming back to re-read these posts & remind myself not to get so worked up & than we can get thru it! :)

Just thought I'd update in case anyone's interested...
We're off to Karitane tomorrow & I'm so glad as Ella has become more difficult lately in some ways - well, not her really, but the issues.
I'm feeling much better in myself on the whole - which I'm so glad for!
, but sometimes it gets me down that she's not sleeping real well (altho last night we got 8 hours woohoo); she won't eat solids, & is still a struggle to feed generally.
Went to the paed for results on what's happening with her tummy yesterday. All very inconclusive (which is fine, but it would be nice to have an answer); unfortunately he was rather patronising to me. (what is it with male doctors???) I'd change paed, but he's supposed to be one of the better ones in the district... His advice was to try x formula & if that removes the problem to wean her onto it. I'm frustrated because I know that this is not the first step, it's the final option.
So I'm so glad that we're going to Karitane because there are some experts to look at her beahviour & give me some support...
Will keep updating you & have been enjoying re-reading all your advice. I can't tell you how helpful you have been.
Hope to have more good news soon...