Disipline without smacking

Dear gentle Mums,

I have a very headstrong and defiant 2.5yo son. My DH and I made the decision not to smack our children before we were pregnant. BUT, we now have a little man who is out of control! He does not listen, shouts and throws tantrums all day, screams at bed time and generally is the most badly behaved child. Going to the shops with both my cherubs alone is a trip from hell as he won't sit in the pram and just runs away from me so I end up sweating from the stress and frustration and almost in tears with embarassment of people looking down their nose at us. I don't know how to disipline him and he knows it and constantly misbehaves and pushes my boundaries. We've tried the naughty chair but he just shouts "NO!" when I tell him to sit on the naughty chair. I don't have the luxury of devoting all my time to getting him to comply as I have DD to look after as well. I'm at the end of my tether and feel like running away from home.:wall:

PLEASE HELP US!!!!

have you read 'toddler tactics' and 'the science of parenting'?

if not, i would pop down to the library today and grab a copy of each. my ds is not in that stage yet, but they both have some ideas to work with.

You can still be firm, and not use smacking, but from the sound of it I don't think smacking would be terribly effective anyway. What I would do is make it very clear to him that he will start to miss out on doing things because he misbehaves too much - try not to use the word naughty if you can, but he's at the age where he should be able to understand actions and their consequences. You need to try to negotiate with him that if he does things that aren't right, like run away at the shops etc, that he wont be able to do things, like he wont be able to come with you (and for a while you might have to delay doing shopping etc when your DH is home). But the main thing is you have to be firm - when you say you are going to do xyz because he wouldn't do xyz, make sure you don't cave in because it not only sends mixed signals to him because theres no consistency, but also that if he carrys on for long enough, that you will give in. And when you are at the shops, and he would prefer to walk, get one of those harness things - either the wrist one or the backpack one so you can at least contain how far he can go. You will get some looks, but I would rather those looks than the ones you get for having a child that is running amok kwim?

When he's at home, I have found that with one of my children, ignoring her when she was carrying on was the best way to deal with it. I know some children will only act up even more to try to get your attention, but I made it very clear to her that I would only talk to her if she wasn't doing xyz and if she was playing up I would ignore her for the duration of the tanty etc. I would make myself look busy tidying up etc, just simple things, but never go and play with another child during that time kwim?

I hope that this is only a passing phase though and you come out the other side soon :hug:

:hug: i too have a headstrong little munchkin, and i too made the decision before i got her that i wasn't going to smack.

Let me first reassure you of one of the facts that probably led to your decision not to smack - for the defiant child it is no more likely to work than any other method. I have once lost it and smacked DD on the hand, and the result was that she chucked and even more massive fit and unlike usually i was completely unable to calm her down, even after a long time, because she was so hurt by my hitting her. It made me feel like crap and it didn't help us one single bit.

What to do instead? Well, that depends on the kid and the family, and i can only tell you what i do.

Stage one for misbehaviour is deflection/redirection. When naughtiness begins i try to nip it quickly in the bud and prevent it escalating. For example today DD wanted us to get up (we were trying to have our holy sunday lie in, which is only ever until 9am at BEST anyway) and began dragging the bedclothes off the bed. Quickly i asked her to open our curtains (also a dragging motion and i wanted it doing anyway) and she did so and in doing so she forgot about the bedclothes.

Stage 2 is playful reproach. Over breakfast she began chucking her muffin about and when i asked her to try to keep it on the plate she refused and threw it harder. I picked up her bedtime toy (which goes everywhere with her) and said in a special voice reserved for him (about 4 of her toys have personas with their own voices, catchphrases and stories :rolleyes: lol) "DD don't you know, if you want to grow up big and strong you have to eat your muffin up and not throw it around" and she replied "Yes" and began eating it.

Stage 3 is stern reproach - if the toys don't work, and they do about 80% of the time, i will give her what i think of as "the look" and say sternly "DD, if you throw that again i will take it away" and if she does i do. I might later give her a banana if she's starving from no breakfast, but i will not return the removed item, no matter what, and i ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS do what i say i'm going to, no matter how inconvenient it might feel to me at the time.

Stage 4 is a time out. I sit her on the bottom step of the stairs - i used to send her to a specific chair in her room - wherever it is she needs to be able to hear what is going on but not access it - i am putting her beyond the fun and comfort of family life to remind her that it's a privilege and not a right - that sounds way harsh but i've given her time outs about once a month at most - she hates it and it's my back line. The thing about time out is that you HAVE to make it stick - if he won't sit on the chair you sit right by him and if need be physically hold him there, withdraw eye contact and "ignore" him for his duration. You have to let him know you're serious and that there's no option, you're not asking if he wants a time out when you say "go to the naughty chair" - like anything else it only works if you're consistent. If it's a real problem sitting with him then choose a naughty-chair like a highchair that you can strap him into. He will learn to respect the chair in time, but he needs to learn it's not optional first.

I know it's hard and you have little miss to look after too but this will not be fixed until you fix it, and it's probably going to be very labour intensive to begin with - discipline is hard for ANY of us to take and the smarter and more strong-minded the child the harder it is for them to take it. Try to think not of the time you're spending when sitting with him to enforce a time out or wrangle through the mouth of a toy or think of a task he CAN do, think rather of the time later, at the shops, in the library, in any of the many places which with a naughty child are a nightmare and with a sweet child a joy - you get your work back, i promise!

For the things you mentioned - if DD runs from me she has to hold my hand or sit in the stroller. If she won't stay in it she is strapped into it. I do not argue with her- she is 2. She is very entitled to her opinion, to express it by screaming too, but that doesn't change what has to happen or change the rules for her. I WILL and HAVE done a whole shop with her screaming and screaming and screaming all the way because she ran off and had to be put in the buggy. When she does it i always tell her before putting her in the buggy what's happening and why "Mama is putting you in the buggy now DD, because if you run away from me i don't know if i can trust you, and if i can't trust you i can't let you walk". Yeah, she freaks out, but she still has to go in the buggy.

As a final note, try really hard to let go of what other people think. 90% of those people who are looking feel badly that they don't know if/how to help, 90% would have no idea how to handle it in your position, and a good 50%+ would hit a person weighing one fifth what they do before trying to figure out a different approach. It only matters what you and your son think and feel, not those old biddies at big W. It is HIM you go home with, and it is HIM you are doing this parenting lark for, not them. I know how hard it is, and i've had to do tantrum negotiations with "helpful" passersby offering to hit DD for me (!), but it's the biggest favour you can do for yourself and for your parenting. Parenting is like sex - Good Parenting doesn't "look" a certain way. Lots of tantruming children come from loving attentive parents who have encouraged their sense of self, and lots of peaceful well-behaved kids haven't been fed for 3 days and have the crap beaten from them for having an opinion. He sounds like a real smart cookie and by caring what other think you are giving him powerful leverage - he KNOWS if he acts up enough you will give in because you dread being judged by others. But really hun, you have nothing to be judged upon, Gentle Parenting isn't about raising good kids it's about raising happy adults - you let them tell you your 20-year old son, who will by then be ripe with the fruits of your labour now, isn't up to scratch.

Hang in there! :hug:

Bx

I don't have any advice sorry hun because we are trying to do the same thing here right now but just wanted to say a BIG thanks to Bx! Wonderful advice and Im off to put some of it to practise!

I bought Toddler Tactics and Sleeping Like a Baby and to be honest I'm not a huge fan. Sorry all those Pinky fans! I'm sure it works for some though.

Hi there! You poor thing. We all know what it is like, and I have always thought hats off to any parent with a bub AND a toddler!

An awesome book I can refer you to is Robin Grille's Heart to heart parenting. If you can get your hands on it you won't regret it.

A couple of things that may help (sorry if it doesn't!)
Have a check of his diet - is there anything in there that could be hyping him up? eg. lots of processed foods.

How much bonding time do you think you/your DH are getting with him. It is important to have positive time where you can go a bit nutso together, bond, get some steam out, rather than feel like you are constantly the nagging parent. Does he have lots of opportunity to let loose that toddler expression?

Secondly - you absolutely need to have boundaries both for safety, for personal respect, and for his adequate psychological development. But it is so crucial that these boundaries are based in logic and have logical consequences. Logical boundaries can be explained even in simple language to a child and have to be enforced because there is a reason why you made them in the first place. If you just make up inconsistent and illogical rules then you will second guess yourself when they push you. You need to provide an explanation to kids - it just doesn't need to be complicated eg. 'safety' 'dangerous'.

- Boundaries and consequences are all about being firm and genuine - not hard. You can have strong boundaries without raising your voice or your hand. (unless there is immediate danger in which case you may yell 'stop' or the like so they understand the alarm). Like Bec said you always need to stick to your word otherwise they don't understand your boundaries and become confused about what you say vs what you do.

- Wherever possible, consequences need to be logical results of their action. For example, if they hurt you when you are playing then the game would stop. If they deliberately break something then they need to help fix it etc. Naughty chairs etc. are often totally unrelated to the original action so don't help the child to understand the natural consequences of the boundaries you set in your house.

- Toddlers need time to adjust to changes. Say if you want to go home from the park, it can help to give them warning (one more swing or slide then we are going home). Then stick to it. If you are out at the shops, how can you make it more enjoyable (less painful) by including things that they like. We sometimes get one of the trolleys shaped like a car, or stop at the little kids rides.

- Above all try and foster a relationship of understanding between you and him. Understanding why he does things and respect his ability to express his feelings. Express your own feelings genuinely because you also have a right to them. Let him know you understand when he gets upset but that he has to ..(eg. Sit down on the chair)... because of .(eg. safety)..... If he starts to tantrum - realise he is expressing his frustrations and emotions and that is natural and healthy. You won't be able to reason with him but you can stay close and give him as much love as he will accept (a cuddle, a pat on the back) because your main job at that point is to help him realise that these emotions are normal, that he will recover from them, and that you love him. You won't encourage tantrums by doing this. You can only do that if you give in to whatever he is tantruming over, and if you feel tempted to do this then remember the logical reason behind your original decision.

I totally agree with Bec over ignoring criticism from other people. Remember many of them come from a different generation where hitting is totally acceptable.
You have to balance the short term goal of maintaining acceptable boundaries in your household with the long term goal of growing your son into a man who can express his emotions, relate to other people, be confident, and be a successful independent person. Smacking tries to modify behaviour to reach those short term goals but ignores the more important long term ones.

I hope my ramble has in some way helped. Even if it just shows you that all toddlers goes through this period. It is where they start to define themselves as a separate person to yourself.
Big hugs!

krisp - You've had heaps of wonderful advice but I just thought I would mention a good parent friendly book/dvd called '123 magic'. Lots of local community groups or early intervention groups also run courses in this BH management model in NSW (not sure about other states) which is the one I attended for work (child care worker). It's basically about effective use of 'time out' after natural consequeces don't work and can be really good to use with toddlers up to 10ish yr olds. Also Steve Biddolph has some great books specifically about raising boys. Hope things get better soon.:)

Aaaagh, just lost a huge post!

In summary - positive re-inforcement. If you tell your son what you expect of him and how he can help and praise him for it, you'll get a better behaved child.

With DS, I let him walk around the shops with me. He has reins on. He knows to stop at the kerb and hold hands to cross roads because Mammy needs to be looked after - and if he doesn't, pushchair. He helps me push his chair, which keeps him close. I tell him to help me find the fruit for dinner tonight, or ask if he can find the milk... then walk after him. OK, takes a time and I prefer to shop alone, but he doesn't act up so much.

I also ask if "a good boy" does XYZ. Then I ask if DS is a good boy. Sometimes I have to then ask if Good Boy DS does XYZ before he gives it up unhappily, but that works nine times out of ten.

Playing hide and seek is great too. As soon as I ask if DS is under the table or behind the chair he runs right to me laughing.

Disciplining a child is hard - you have to explain not only that something isn't right, but WHY it's not right and then acknowledge your child does't like that answer and keep them safe while they express their rage.

A screaming child is a bit embarrassing, but I'd rather see a misbehaving child looked after safely, even if he didn't like it, than a brat making EVERYONE's life a misery because his parents gave in to every whim. I don't look down my nose, but I know it may be seen like that because I don't know what to say to you to encourage you with standing firm.

I also tell DS "don't bother fighting me on this, Mammy's going to win." It may take me an hour to "win" but I do. Not used all the time, but he knows when I'm determined he can't budge me. So goes to work on DH or my mum instead! DH backs me up 99% of the time but Mum only 80% because she doesn't know all the rules and reasons, although she's getting better. DS only chucks big tantrums at these two as well because he knows how consistent I am.

Good luck!!!