Something has to change...

...because I can't do this anymore.

On a good night, Spock will sleep for 3hr blocks. Normal is 2hrs. last night and the night before it was 1hr.

I have no idea why she keeps waking up!! I feel I've taken into account everything!! Normally we follow her cues, if she tells me she is tired we will have a nap etc... so that is our base/normal. but because that wasn't working i thought I would change stuff.
I have forced naps all day so she sleep more thinking that might help her sleep at night. nope. I have kept her awake thinking when she finally crashes that she will stay asleep. nope. I have stuffed her full of food in the evening thinking maybe its hunger. nope. I have put less stuff on her at night incase she was too hot. nope. I have put more stuff on her maybe she is cold? nope. I have not bf to resettle and rocked instead. nope.

NOTHING makes a difference. I fell I could cope with waking every 3 hours, but anything more than that I can't do. so I don't care if she doesn't sleep through the night. I just need atleast one longer block so i can get a good few hours.

we currently cosleep with a cot sidecared. Ive tried moving the cot away from the bed so they seperate. nope that was worse. but my next move is to move her into her own room. also doesn't matter if it is WW or if she has teeth/getting teeth, she still does it. during the day she is happy as pie, fun, easy going, playing, laughing etc... so wouldn't think it is pain? because wouldn't she been bothered during the day too??

my other issue is she has started to bite me. really hard. so feeding her to sleep is harder because now when she fights it she bites me. and that along with the DMER, I sit there in tears whilst bf...I don't want to stop feeding her. but its getting to the point it has crossed my mind.

I'm open to everything!!! I don't want her to CIO, only because it will make me feel worse than I do, and I want to make sure she enjoys sleep and knows it is a safe peaceful relaxing time, and not make it stressful. which is why I'm asking for help.

please throw anything at me! because I just can't do this anymore =(

My kids have all done this and it totally sucks.

I would suggest separating out the feeding and sleeping ie stop feeding to sleep. I did this when my last was about 8 months and it did help a bit. It also means that you can go to bed early and leave DH to get her to sleep instead of having to wait up until she is sleepy itms. My third is now 16 months and just in the last few weeks is down to one or two wake ups (mostly because she is now getting molars. Joy.)

If you stop feeding to sleep for bedtime, then you can progress to not feeding when she wakes during the night. It is long yards walking them around to resettle during the night when you know they would go back to sleep in minutes if you feed them, but it does help. I walked DD around and accepted grizzling but if she got actually upset then I gave up and fed her.

I don't have much advice really, just a bucketload of sympathy xx

My LO's only ever bit me when they were teething. Maybe she's getting teeth. Have you tried giving a dose of panadol about 15 mins or so before bed time?
Is she learning alot at the moment? Like is she starting to crawl or sit up or 'talking' more? Maybe a wonder week/stormy period (google wonder weeks if you have no idea what I'm talking about!). Whist not a solution, sometimes an explanation helps deal with the sleepless-ness.
Maybe an illness you can't see- ears/throat, maybe a trip to the doc is in order?
Do you go to sleep with her, as in at the same time? I used to do that because I knew I would be up very often to one or the other of my kids, so I was in bed at 7.30 with the kids, to make sure that I got enough sleep. Although very broken, I was usually getting at least 5-ish hour.
Big hugs hun. I know the pain of kids that don't sleep. I've had 3 of them. And TBH, I never found a solution, I'm sorry to say :( Some people just don't sleep well!

when ive given pain relief it hasnt made a difference =(, still will wake up and hr or 2 later...

just something I didn't think of earlier - my kids have had sore ears/teething pain which has only affected them at nighttime. They were usually happy during the day and then cranky pants at night. Not sure why? It took me ages to take one of them to the GP once and I felt so guilty, b/c they were fine during the day. I think when they're up and learning to move around and interacting, they can be distracted, but at night and lying down, the pain is worse and they haven't got anything else to focus on. Anyway, just a thought.

My kids have done it too, First got a 5 hour block of sleep from DD at 15 months. DS has had a few night when he has had a decent sleep, but we are doing the 2 hour dance atm, and have been for a few months. my solution is to bedshare/cosleep which gets me through but my irritability level is pretty high lately.

Will she take a bottle? Can your partner do a couple of late night shifts so you can get a good block of sleep a couple of days in a row?

one of her ears has had a bit of wax on the outside the last few days. think that could be something?
thing is it has been like this for months. except for the 2 nights we stayed at my parents iver xmas. she hat a 5hr block one night and a 6hr the next. so makes me think its environmental here.

also ill feed her to sleep and she sleeps quickly but whenever i move her to bed shevwakes up and cries (quickly becomes hysterical). ive tried not putting her back on and singing and patting etc. never works.

Yeah, that's why DS is in my bed after the first feed. Could never get the transfer to work for me. They know, they always know.

Could you try sleeping her on her tummy? It may not work if she's not used to it and you're trying to put her down for the night, but if she wakes from a sleep and is in that "in between" awake and asleep stage, she may settle easily. At her age I'd imagine her neck/shoulders are strong and she moves her head easily, so tummy sleeping shouldn't be a problem (having said that, many don't like the idea ... so you need to do what you're comfortable with).

I often think chiropracters work wonders on babies ... might be worth a try to see if something is out of alignment and causing your DD issues during sleep.

Otherwise, I'd throw something different at her. Try moving her into her room, to see what happens. Could you feed her before bed, and then get DH to put her down. I'd expect some crying, but to me it sounds like she's seeking out comfort from you. Which is fine, until you don't get any sleep.

Hugs hun. Babies who don't sleep make life very difficult for their mummies. Go easy on yourself xx

First of all, have a thousand of these. :hug:

I have been there.... I stayed there for a very very long time. I know you're tired, so I'll keep it simple.

Some things I introduced around the time I was losing my ability to function on such broken sleep are:

- The end of co-sleeping. It wasn't working anymore, and I think it was my breathing and movements waking him some of the time. He went into his own room in his cot quite easily. He was ready!
- A nightlight.
- Soothing music (or even just the radio)
- A teddy to cuddle

I continued to feed him if he woke during the night. I still do this now, and he's 22mths..... :rolleyes: But hey, mama's gotta sleep if she can function at work. So whilst I get that he doesn't 'need' the milk, I figure it doesn't do either of us any harm to allow it. :)

Good luck. These phases do pass. I know it's awfully hard, but you can get through it. Just take it one hurdle at a time. And remember - you're the boss! :)

It's very normal for babies to do this at 8-9 months. I seriously wish there was a solution, but tbh I found I just had to ride it out and things improved on their own.

Can you bed share or nap in the day or go to bed earlier? I know people talk about sleep deprivation with a nb but for me I needed waaaay more help at the 9 month mark to help me through the night wakings.

Not much help sorry, but I have the philosophy of change myself not the baby because I can control my own actions and behaviors but babies cannot control theirs.

If you think it is environmental, have you tried getting down to her level to see what she is seeing? Maybe a light is shining in her eyes? A pillow blocking her sight? Too much/not enough noise?

Hugs Hun, go easy, it is so tough when you have a non-sleeper... I've had two with a possible third now... :(

What about allergies or food sensitivities?

When she is waking after the 2-3 hours is she actually properly waking up or is she just between sleep cycles and may resettle on her own? I ask this a very early on with DD I'd pick her up and try and feed pretty much every time she stirred as I thought she needed me and didn't want her to cry and wake DH. After a while I decided to just 'wait and see' and often she'd resettle. If she didn't then I knew she needed something....

My DS was sleeping through the night until we started offering what was meant to be a 'small' feed before nap time in case he was thirsty in the heat. This has morphed into feed-to-sleep an he has started waking 2-3 times in the night and needing a feed to re-settle.

So basically, I have taken my self-settler and turned him into a baby who needs me to settle him. :(

Obviously, I didn't realise that this was what the outcome would be.

So I agree with some other posters - maybe try separating the feeding and the sleeping, and do what you can to resettle bub in the night without feeding. I know it's going to be hard for us, and it'[s only been for a few weeks.

I stopped feeding on wake ups. I offered water and still cuddled/rocked but didn't bf and found this really helped. I don't bf for any wake up before 4am, just an arbitrary time, but its helped a lot.

op ~ I did try and lay her in different position down in the cot, but never thought to lay down on it myself and see what she sees, thanks! i will try that

3littlemonkeys ~ that could be it... but so much stuff we would have to take into consideration. DH said its coffee that i drink...which ofcourse makes it my fault so i feel worse. so ive commited to not have any in the after noon. see if that makes a difference...

Chody ~ I do wait and see how she goes, if i can hear her moving i dont do anything. thing is she then sits herself up, and starts crying. I do only tend to her if she is crying.

Pholi ~ this will hopefully be easier when she is in her own room. will give us a chance to adjust a few things. see how it works.

Amaunet ~ what age did you do this? Spock is 7 1/2 months. is she too young for me to start limiting bf?

thanks girls!

EDIT!! it appears I missed half of you =(

AndiE ~ if she goes on her tummy she automatically sticks her bum in the air and tries to sit herself up. it is rather annoying cause I tried a few times to get her on her tummy thinking she might settle for longer...

ForShelby ~ I dont feel I could deny her bf... with the teddy thing. I did read the no cry sleep solution and tried to do the 'lovely' idea. but she didn't take to the toy I tried to get her assosiated with sleep. she does have a toy she is in love with, am i better off using a toy she already loves, or bringing in a completely new one, cause hopefully she would get sleep assossiation with it.

Arcadia ~ i do nap when she does =) only way i am surviving

I started about 9 months from memory. He eats heaps and I always offered water.

:hug:
I hate to say it, but with regard to the sleeping, she may just not be a sleeper. Chantelle was waking 6-10 a night up until about 11mths old (thats every 1-2hrs). Nothing I could do could change that. She just grew out of it. She now either sleeps through or wakes up once for a drink (because of the hot weather). I did use a variation of CC / CIO / whateer you want to call it with my other three; but it is really hit or miss, it worked brilliantly with Angel and Baz, but with Nate it just made him sooooo much worse, and even at 5yrs he is still a night waker (although he at least doesn't need us to get up with him anymore). I wish I had some helpful advice. :hug:

With the breastfeeding. You have done a remarkable job so far. You are absoloutely amazing! Seriously. But you have choices. It IS ok to put yourself first there if you need to. And it may be that if you don't have to cope with BOTH the sleep and the breastfeeding issue, then maybe it might make the stress alieviate a little too? Again :hug: Whatever decision you make won't be a an easy one, but you need to know that deciding either way is fine. Both decisions would be made with your DD's best interests at heart and there is absolutely nothing wrong with either. <3

:

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one of her ears has had a bit of wax on the outside the last few days. think that could be something?
thing is it has been like this for months. except for the 2 nights we stayed at my parents iver xmas. she hat a 5hr block one night and a 6hr the next. so makes me think its environmental here.

also ill feed her to sleep and she sleeps quickly but whenever i move her to bed shevwakes up and cries (quickly becomes hysterical). ive tried not putting her back on and singing and patting etc. never works.

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definitely get her checked for ear infection, they can be so easily missed and yet so easily solved.

I use a variety of teddies. It took a long time for DS to choose a favourite, but it's not so much about which teddy he has- as long as there's something nearby to cuddle. Right now, cookie monster is the fave. I change it up when they need a wash.

I bottle fed from early on so it was a bit different for me- but I also offer water if I think he might be 'milking it' lol so to speak. I've had mixed results with that one.

Keep us posted. :)

Definitely take her to the GP and get her checked out, in case there is an underlying infection. Also suss out the possibility of reflux to rule that out.

I took my DD to sleep centre around this age, similar issue except in our case she would sleep from 35-55 mins then wake. My sleep deprivation was so severe after a couple of months that I was hallucinating during the day. Several things: her weight gain had plateau'd, so they recommended I feed her differently. Not more food, but more energy dense foods. Eg add a bit of grated cheese or butter or full cream milk to the food I was preparing and a bit more protein. Also, they had me start offering the 3rd boob, eg when they are feeding well during the day and have had both boobs, you can either offer them the 1st boob again or let them play for a little while and then offer the 1st boob again. Letting them have a good long comfort suck at those feeds in the day when you have the time and space for it can help with this as well.

They also got me to give her a dream feed (except it was never really a dream feed, she would wake) around 10-11pm, then no more boobie until after 5-6 am. This helped break the wake-boobie association, while still providing sufficient "overnight" feeds to meet her nutritional needs.

I believe these 2 measures helped enormously. My DD's pattern was really badly entrenched, it had been going on for the better part of 5 months. I had exhausted ever other method several times over so we did some controlled comforting - not a CIO method, but not an attachment method either. At the same time I experimented with music and lighting (darker or lighter, nightlights, etc) until I got the right amount of light for me to resettle her without it disturbing her. I don't think any one thing fixed it, it was the combination of everything working together. I know the sleep centres are not for everyone, but it did provide me with a supportive environment to make the changes that were needed to turn a corner. Hopefully you will be able to resolve this with some simple measures, but if you can't, don't be afraid to seek out some assistance. :hug:

I stopped feeding Liebs at night at around 9-10m as he wasn't feeding back to sleep, wasn't hungry, was just up every half hour.

I laid him on his tummy on my tummy/chest, so his head was on my heart. It seemed to help. I was in a camp bed at the time, on Liebling's bedroom floor, so couldn't roll around, so just had my arms around him and we slept better, if not well. Never well with Liebling.

Misty ~ thats why i don't want/not expecting miracles. I will be happy for just a 3hr stretch. I think its starting to take a toll on her now too...she has bags under her eyes. I feel that she is suffering for not sleeping. its not just for my benefit, its for hers too.
stopping bf is my absolute last resort. and even then I dont think I will do it. Unless it destorys me I will keep going. I think I will feel worse if i stop. even though it is causing me pain now. i think the tiredness is adding to that. so wont make any decisions until after I know that isn't a factor.
I will take her to the doc on Monday, just to get checked over and see if there isn't something else there... the other day I smelt something, that infection smell you get. the smell of earrings (like dried whitecells). I couldn't work out where it was coming from, her or me, or was just old food on her top (lol dont i sound like a great mum =p), her necklace... I dont know but something smelt wrong. wouldn't hurt to get her checked anyway.

forshelby ~ thankyou, never thought to offer water instead of bm at night

MD ~ yea i will take her on Monday. no point with a "dream feed" because she wakes up then anyway. that is the wake up that i do feed her though, rather than try and resettle without feeding. interesting about what foods to offer. we just give her a little bit of everything, including butter etc.. basically whatever we have. and we only ever use fullcream stuff. atm, we sleep in the dark. we use to have a nightlight, but was only for my benefit while i was still working it all out, now i can attach her in the dark i dont use it. might be worth using a nightlight again. do you think she wakes up and freaks out because she can't see?

TFB ~ maybe i will settle her to sleep on me like that then try to t/f her to the bed?


well... last night, i did my normal bedtime routine. she fed, feel asleep and was settled in the cot, all within 10minutes!!!! =O normally takes over an hour!! I couldn't believe it. I didn't know what to do with myself. the feeling of peace and relief and relaxation i had though was amazing, i haven't felt like that for a very long time. (we hadnt changed anything yet). but overnight was the same. woke up every 2hours. only change, the 2 1/2hour screaming/unsettled/will only sleep when being rocked my me in the middle of the night. DH ended up on the couch so we could have the whole bed. not that we used it cause she wouldn't settle, tried painrelief, bf, rocking, patting, singing, nothing worked. then it was every 2 hrs again..

if you breastfeed or settle her straight away is there less unsettledness?

if i got to dd straightaway she was easy t get back to sleep, if she woke completely we would be up for hours.

if i get her when she is stiring (before crying) i put her on the boob and she might have 1 suck, and go straight back to sleep, so thats when i started waiting until she was actually crying for me.
she will fall asleep on the boob fine, or if i get out of bed and rock her she will sleep on my sholder, but as soon as i lay her in bed, or even if i lay with her in bed (so she can still feel me next to her) she cries.

Massive hugs to you hun. We are having the same problem with Miss G and nothing is working. I'm at the point where I have that horrible anxious feeling all day because if how horrible I'm anticipating the nights to be.

Out if curiosity, how does she sleep during the day?

oh my Mel! and you have 2 babies!! I feel like i have nothing to complain about.

a normal nap is 30mins. 75% in the carrier, and 25% laying in bed. the carrier she will fall asleep straight away. if i lay her down i bed I feed her to bed which can take 30mins to and hr... and doesn't work sometimes. she will probably only have 3? naps during the day

She may only need two naps during the day at this age?? It will depend on the baby, Sebastian and chantelle had dropped down to just one day nap, between 30-60mins by that age.

:hug: Everything is a million times harder when you are suffering from sleep deprivation. I was happy chantelle would talk a bottle as well as breast, so I could express and DH could get up for at least one of the feeds back to sleep. We also started giving the first feed to bed of the night as a bottle of EMB because she would drink more from the bottle then the boob, and it made her have a longer sleep at that point. Of course this meant I was often up anyway, expressing whilst DH gave the bottle so that there would be another bottle ready to go, but she was settled easier and slept for longer - we ended up doing a combination of breastfeeding and formula later on, because I got sick of expressing; so don't make the mistake of thinking you are restricted to either breastfeeding OR bottlefeeding, it is possible to do both. Although I completely understand that you may not want to introduce the bottle at all.

the more I think about it and what you girls have said, I think something is stopping her sleeping but she wants to sleep. rather than her just not wanting to go to sleep. because she looks tired =( bags and puffy eyes...and that soft cry that is as though she is too tired to make a real one.
most likely pain... but where? she has been doing this for atleast a month, but the last week it has gotten insanely bad, and each night is worse than the one before... would teeth last that long?
yesterday she refused to sleep all day...finally crashed at 630ish in her highchair, i got her and put her in her pjs and went to bed. I thought, yes, for sure she will sleep for a decent stretch after nothing all day! nope. she woke up at 730, settled pretty quickly, DH and I went to bed at 8 (ha 8pm on a sat night!), she woke again at 930. and wouldn't settle. 2hrs later of screaming and me rocking and singing and attempting to feed (she kept biting me). i finally got her settled at 1130.
awake again at 1...then at 330...briefly (think some of this time she was on my boob as we laid down..i cant remember, awake for reals at 430. another 2 hour scream...me rocking and singing, her biting me....we finally went back to bed at 630ish. and awake for the day at 830.

gave her panadol this time in both those screaming matches... i had given her neurofen previous night that didn't make a difference. I dont know if the panadol did...or if she just settled because she was so knocked around.

I can't wait until tomorrow when i can go to a dr...just one more night...one more night.... atleast then i can rule some things out.

My youngest feed 2hrly over night till 2years of age, she gave up all day sleeps by 12minths except the odd one in the carrier. Some babies are just not sleepers.

With the 2 hours of screaming, have you changed yours or her diet, it could be a reaction or wind pains to something she or you are eating. My eldest was a windy baby and would scream for hours till I learnt to give her rose water to help beak up the wind so she could burp or fart it out. Just a thought.

Hope you figure it out soon.

I have no other suggestions or advice Hun. I hope that the doctor has some answers or something for you to try! It sounds brutal the lack if sleep you are both getting :(

people who say their babies just werent sleepers, were they (the LOs) functioning without the sleep? or do you still feel they needed it they were just good at fighting it? last week i would have agreed and acepted it, she seemed to be ok with the little sleep. but the last few days... its hard to think she is ok.

Big hugs. DD2 did this for 3.5 months :o It was a huge shock as I don't recall DD1 doing it, or maybe I've just chosen to forget it :lol:

Will find a post I wrote awhile ago to Lulu as she too was having issues with her DD3.

In the meantime, add 'glue ear' to your list to ask the GP. I've had a few friends with babies who slept terribly and they had glue ear. Two of them had to get grommets, one of them cleared on their own. Sleep magically returned to normal!

Will BBL but just quickly, teeth can definitely cause that much pain for some babies and often only effects them at night. Laying down causes the pain the increase. Also, when babies are having big growth spurts (outside of WWs too), they struggle with sleep as they're thinking too much and often practicing in their sleep. Sitting, rolling, standing and crawling have caused issues for both my girls (not badly for DD1 though).

:hug: it's tough. I'll never forget the hourly wakeups with DD2 night after night. It sucks!

My 2hrly feeder who didn't sleep much in the day functioned without it, she was on the go a lot and didn't show tired signs, till around 7at night when she stated her night sleep. All feeds before midnight she went back in her hammock (cot after 10 months) then all feeds after midnight we coslept.

Even tough she feed 2hrly, she settled quick and feed quick to in about 10minutes. I never turned lights on for night feeds and by 10 months rarely changed nappies during the night. Night nappy went on at feed around 9pm ish.

Though if your little one has been a good sleeper till now, I would get your gp to check and make sure no middle ear etc.

Teeth can go on and on and on with unsettled ness too.

Mine were just good at fighting it and chantelle was extremely clingy, but would wake if I moved at all.

If you think their may be a physical reason, go with your mummy instincts. Go get her checked out.

she has had good naps today, both in the carrier, but that is ok.

she hasnt had a bf all day though...i keep offering and she just bites me and wants to run away (she has had solids and water). so im expecting the catch up later. wish i knew what was wrong with my poppet =(

Did you go to the doctor?

dont have one in town until monday. and i cant afford to go to the afterhrs clinic 40km away where they charge $150. =(

Maybe a doctor will have a reason. Otherwise, children do often go through unexplained unsettled periods. My DS's are right now. DS1 is waking about 2 times a night (at 4 1/2) for over 3 weeks now; and DS2's waking 3-ish times a night (at 24 months) and waking at 4.20am on the dot every morning. This has been happening for a week or two. I can't put my finger on why. But my children have all been terrible sleepers and I just kind of accept bad nights/weeks now. I have done the doctor thing so many times with no outcome. I usually put it down to teething, bad dreams or big growth spurts.
I know it is really hard. I really do. I have done (and still do) the fitful, sleepless nights. It is soul destroying. But it does get better. There s a light at the end of the tunnel. It will take time though. All I can advise, is for you to sleep with her through the day to catch up and to go to bed early so you get enough hours sleep, even if they're broken.