How Important Are Apologies To You?

As many of you would know, the situation with 18-year-old DSD has been very complicated over the years and I think I've gone above and beyond the call of duty. If I started writing all the things that have happened and all the efforts I've made I would literally be here all day but suffice to say that I think I've approached the situation with as much understanding and kindness I could muster while she makes no effort to help herself.

She is currently back living in the US. One of the very many issues I/we have with her is that she is a compulsive liar, makes up stories then gets very angry when she gets found out and gets verbally abusive. I have frequently tried to tell her that honesty is the best policy and that a sincere apology goes a long way. This sort of thing has got her into lots of tangles before, not just with me but with her father, her friends and her teachers and it just makes her life far more complicated than it needs to be.

So a couple of months ago, during a phone call, I questioned her about some of my possessions that I'd found in storage in our shed. I wasn't snooping, we'd had a leak in the shed and her stuff was water-damaged so I was transferring it into dry boxes.

There were some of my notecards in with her stuff. No biggie really in the whole scheme of things. But I asked her about them and of course she went off at the deep end. The end result being that she then accused me of stealing a bracelet she had made with her grandmother (complete fantasy). I then pointed out that she was making that up and she carried on being hysterical and ended the phone call calling me a "rich *****" who could afford to have their things taken.

I subsequently messaged her telling her that if she called the home phone again, I would have no dealings with her until she apologised and once again pointed out that you can't go around treating people like that. THat means that I won't put her on to her father, I'm just hanging up and if she wants to talk to him she can call him on his mobile or email him that she wants to talk. I'm not bothered about what she said to me, I think she just needs to take responsibility for her actions and learn to apologise when she stuffs up. Like I say, this causes endless problems in her life.

Obviously she's not happy about this and has called a few times since then at which point I hang up. I've made it clear in lots of messages that all she has to do is apologise.

I should also say that I'm now approaching her mum (with whom there is also a chequered history) in the same way. She has also gotten hysterical with me, called me all the names under the sun yet expects me to just placidly put DP on the phone when she calls the home phone. The last time, I asked her calmly to explain why she was calling me "scum" and "dirt" and I would not put DP on until we had a chat. She refused and I've also said that I won't do her the courtesy of putting DP on the phone until she explains herself.

DP thinks I'm being a bit silly. I believe there's a right way and a wrong way to treat people and if you treat people badly you can't expect to be treated with courtesy.

So what are your views?

i'm having trouble articulating what it is i want to say here...but the basis of it is that it's what's behind the apology that's important to me. i don't want an apology for the sake of one but i'd prefer someone to be genuinely sorry for whatever harm it is they've caused. or to at least accept that their actions have hurt/upset someone.

i'm not sure if i'm completely black & white on a right & wrong way to treat people but i do believe in treating people with respect & pretty much in the way that i would like to be treated myself. i do think you have every right to ask for an apology & to stick to your guns. and even if i didn't agree, i wouldn't think you were silly, rather i'd respect that it's your perogative to ask for an apology.

from reading your threads on your DSD & her mum over the last couple of years though, i'm not sure we're dealing with rational people here who think that way at all! i mean, i cannot fathom why someone would be calling you scum or dirt. but then i like to stay civil with people & don't like the emotional highs & lows that go with that sort of behaviour.

They are important to me but I do agree wirth Sloane, that unless they are heartfelt, it truly defeats the purpose.
Given what you have posted about DSD and her mum (obviously a learnt behaviour) I don't think you will get one and even if you do it wouldn't be from the heart. All in all though I think you need to stick to your guns now b/c you have made a point of wanting an apology and if you were to go back on that, she would feel she has the upper hand. Your DP needs to support you on this too - whilst he might think it is a bit silly, he does not cop the brunt of her behaviour and he should step in & demand the apology.

I think apologies can go a long way, but I would really just prefer people change their behaviour. An apology means nothing to me unless the same thing doesn't happen again. I would accept a change in behaviour without an apology to get past an incident but doesn't sound like she wants to do either.

I completely agree with krysalyss. Apologies are just words until they are backed up by behaviour.

FWIW, I don't think you're being silly in wanting the apology, just as long as you're realistic about the chances of actually getting one. I have read a few of your threads about this pair over the years (I am sure not all of them though) and I think you've done remarkably well in keeping the lines of communication open up until now. In terms of your DP. From his point of view I guess I can see how he might see it as silly. But then he is not being spoken to by your ex-partners in that manner either and I am sure he would not see it as a trivial issue if he were.

I think you sound like you've got really healthy boundaries around this situation. They can contact your DP without having to go through you. I cannot think of any reason why you need to deal with either of them, given how little respect you get from them.

ETA: Just thinking on this a little more, I think we are culturally/socially conditioned to expect/want apologies from people. At least most people in Western cultures are. It starts young. I have found myself prompting DS to give an apology when he hits another child or steals their toy and he has only just turned two!! It's probably a little early developmentally to expect him to understand the point of an apology, yet I find myself prompting him without even thinking about it. It's quite ingrained really. I think it has to do with the way we view other people's behaviour - the attributions we tend to make about others are that they are in control of themselves, making conscious choices and that they intend the consequences that others experience from their behaviour. I guess when the consequences are negative (as in your case here), there is a general expectation that people should regret that and demonstrate their regret by a verbal apology. I bet if this pair were wronged (or believed themselves to be wronged) they would want an apology too.

Writing this in a hurry so forgive randomness.

Thank you ladies - all good thoughts/advice.

Generally, I absolutely agree that an apology is pointless unless it's heartfelt. I guess in this case I felt it was babysteps with DSD and at least if I got her to say sorry she may realise it's not that hard and make her more inclined to say sorry in future to other people when she's done the wrong thing. I totally agree that it's a learnt behaviour - her mom absolutely refuses to apologise and her dad (DP) is not crash hot at it either (though he is getting better). So in that respect, I feel that it's not totally her fault for not being able to take responsibility for her actions because her role models have not been great. Hence, the reason I think it's important that I try to show her that it is.

I also completely agree that if her actions/behaviour was showing that she was taking responsibility for her behaviour/life then this would not be a big deal. I'd pass it off as a glitch and move on. Sadly, she is repeating all the same mistakes that have made her life difficult for years.

I guess if I was being completely honest, I know I'm not going to get an apology and I'm cool with that. Not having to deal with her at all actually works for me and in that sense I'm really enjoying having the boundary so maybe I should just be fair dinkum and say that I just want to maintain that boundary. That would probably be more honest of me. After several years of this, I'm just enjoying not having to deal with the dramas and actually be able to concentrate on my DDs.

Forgot to say that she frequently speaks to DP like this too and I don't like the fact that he lets her get away with it. She has frequently told him to eff off when he tries to chastise her for her behaviour or calls him a sperm donor etc. etc.

He doesn't enforce any consequences for that - just doesn't call her for a couple of weeks and then pretends nothing has happened. Which is what she expects me to do obviously.

I think when it comes to dealing with an Adult I expect an apology and can understand your wanting one from you DSD and derserably so too. In your situation I personally would screen the calls if its possible and if you see either of their numbers popping up I'd just tell DP that it will be for him.

I'd not bother wasting my time with either of them anymore, you won't ever get a real apology nor will you ever get any respect from them and sadly there is nothing you can do to fix that. All the hurt and worry they both cause is not healthy for you and you deserve to be better.

I come from a long history of " do as I say, not as I do" and have always been expected to apologise but when the OP has been in the wrong its "I'm sorry but ..." which is not an apology, or I have been flat out told that they have done nothing wrong.

SO yeah, I expect an apology if someone does the wrong thing, but I know that for some people its an impossible ask and where I find that, I eliminate contact as much as I can for my own sake.

:hug:

Nae x

Oh, these people can make something that sounds like an apology when they have to. At the moment, they don't have to so they won't.

Fionas, you are allowed one tiny, miniscule bit of enjoyment and blame them for the no communication rather than you. It is their fault you don't want to communicate with them after all, so blame the apology. Makes them look even weaker, even if you wouldn't accept an apology if delivered by the angel Gabriel at this stage: it isn't going to happen so why worry?

I agree with PPs that an apology, just in words is nothing. But often even if it's not heartfelt, it's an admission of respect, or of needing to be at peace, or something... for your DSD to apologise would be an acknowledgement that she needs to do it, to be able to communicate with you. It's making her take just a teensy bit of responsibility, instead of expecting you to just forget about it, in which case she doesn't have to do anything.
So, for that reason apologies can be important... other times not so much. I agree very much with Sloane, that it's what's behind it that matters.

I've read some of your posts over the years too, and I'm not surprised you feel like this... I don't think you're being silly, I think you've just reached *that* point, you've drawn the line & it's up to them to give a bit now.
If your DH wants to accept it, forget it & move on, then he can choose that for his relationship with her - he can't choose that for you though. That's your choice to make.

You teach people how to treat you :D

I think what your going is fantastic it's teaching them that they can no longer treat you with disrespect and for as long you "enforce that they have to treat you with respect too call the house phone" stand your ground babe xoxox

I think in this case the apology is irrelevant. From what you've described in this and previous posts, what you want is to be treated with respect and for each party to take responsibility for their own behaviour (words being a form of behaviour).

I think what you're doing is excellent in maintaing your boundaries. It's actually quite basic behavioural training. You reward/reinforce good behaviour and punish or not reinforce bad behaviour. Given neither the SD nor her mother have an iota of self awareness or maturity, in reality it's the only way you can treat them without twisting yourself into knots.

You may be interested to read about behavioural training, whether in humans or other animals. As for your Dh, from what you've posted, he also lacks emotional intelligence and will continue to behave and react (rather than respond) until he chooses to learn an alternative method. It does take self-awareness and effort though. Eg he is reinforcing his daughters bad behaviour by not setting boundaries. I think the big issue there is are your values and parenting beliefs/decisions aligned?

Dont back down. It may not be an apology you're after as opposed to just being treated with respect. I dont think they're capable of ever behaving that way but meanwhile you dont have to deal with them. I hope the SD stays away for good.

Eta- could she have narcisistic personality disorder or some other personality disorder? They do both sound a bit like they're not with it IYKWIM

an apology is important to me, my sil made a huge scene at christmas and apparently thought that was acceptable behaviour, she was repeatedly told of the need to apologise, she eventually sent one via tex about 3 months later and it was so insincere (basically saying fine i'll say it because you keep going on about it but i don't really mean it) so it meant nothing to me, she says we need to get over it, as i say to my DH of course she says that she is the one in the wrong !! but i won't/can't get over it until i get a sincere apology and an acknowledgement that what she did was wrong

its difficult DP isn't backing you up, i hope you can get that apology and it feels sincere to you, sounds like an ongoing battle though

Its amazing how a simple "I was wrong, i'm sorry" goes such a long way. I never apologise unless i genuinely mean it but for a person to not accept my apology is just utterly ridiculous, do you think its easy to admit you were wrong and then have that person continuously throw what you did in your face we all say and do stupid things means, most we didn't mean or were said/done in the heat of the moment but what they said/did doesn't warrant an apology just really boggles me... (DP's sister in this case)

I don't know if i have read previous posts but i can see from this one that you are trying and are willing to help her if she would just apologise for what shes said/done and grow up a little bit.

Thanks guys.

Yes, TFB I am getting a teensy weensy amount of pleasure out of this.

Tashy - no DP and mine's parenting values are not aligned. Obviously this is a big concern when we have two girls together and one that I am trying to address now rather than wait until they are teenagers when the value stuff will become particularly fraught. I'm yet to work out whether he is reluctant to enforce consequences because he is operating from the backfoot of guilt (because he left the US when DSD was 10) or whether it's simply that consequences are hard work and he prefers to put his head in the sand. Probably a combination. His unwillingness to do this was incredibly frustrating to me when DSD was living with us. DP constantly wanted to talk about the latest issues (I'm talking every single day for over a year, sometimes for hours at a time) and my advice remained the same. TALK TO HER, explain what you expect, explain that all actions have consequences then enforce those consequences. For the most part, he ignored my advice or followed it sporadically then blamed me if it didn't turn out OK (which of course wasn't going to happen unless you parent consistently). I was drained from constantly listening/advising and think he put me in a very unfair position. You don't have the right to ask your partner for support about a situation if you consistently ignore what they're saying. If you don't think their advice is valid (which would have been fine by me), then seek advice/professional help elsewhere. I liken it to if I had been coming home every day for a year complaining about work - I know DP would have listened, given me some advice and if I hadn't followed it, said "enough already". In the end, out of sheer frustration, I stepped into the situation and started doing the discipline myself. Which obviously didn't go down too well. Then I asked DP to arrange family counselling hoping that I could get a counsellor to reinforce what I was saying (I DON'T want to do the discipline, YOU need to). He arranged one session and didn't arrange any more.

He is looking for a scapegoat and I'm pretty sick of it. We're going to have a talk later and this thread has made me see the situation more clearly and has validated my need to set boundaries.

As for DSD having a personality disorder - I'm not sure. Obviously I believe she has been badly parented by both parents and I think that is a big factor.

Just updating. I've stuck to my guns and despite more than 10 phone calls to the home phone in the last two days, I've not put DP on the line. DSD and I have exchanged messages in which she's tried emotional blackmail yet again (why are you trying to keep me from my dad?). Anyhow, I think she's finally figured out that the manipulation isn't going to work and her last message said she would apologise the next time she called the home phone. I know it will be a token apology but I'm willing to accept that. If she steps out of line again, the consequences will be the same.

I've also arranged an appointment with a counsellor for DP and I to talk about everything that's happened in our step-parenting journey and how we can move forward.

I've also done some reading which has reassured me that what we've experienced is very, very common.

I found this info on Daddy Guilt Syndrome and how it affects step relationships very informative

Donna Estes Antebi: When Guilty Father Syndrome Threatens Your Marriage

:clap: good on you for sticking to your guns and you are probably one of the few people in her life who has been consistant and followed through. The apology might be token but at least you are drawing a line in the sand as to how you will allow her to treat you. It's upto her what she does from here.

I'm pleased she's going to apologise. Who cares if it is just words atm - she's learning an important lesson.