Would like to BF and bottle feed baby from EBM from word go - how do I do it?

Hello,

Friends of mine have a great system going (well I think it is) where Mum breastfeeds but her DH gives their baby a bottle in the evening so Mum can go to bed early and get a few extra unbroken hrs of sleep before getting up during the night to feed. They feed formula for the bottle feed, which works really well, and have done so since bringing their baby home. I like the idea and so does my DH, I think that it another great way of getting DH involved with the baby, and giving mum some rest! So, DH and I have talked about this as an option for us, and we would like to try it...but I would like to try and express and give our baby a bottle of expressed milk rather than formula. We also expect that due to family circumstances there will be times when I need to leave DH with the baby to look after my Mum - hence another reason to have some confidence that our baby, once born, will take a bottle!

So, I'm planning on having to express to make up one feed a day, so my questions are around how I go about this and what do I need?

I figure that I need a pump - so is a hand pump ok for once a day expressing, and if yes, what is recommended? I figure that I'll also need bottles - but what kind and what kind of teats? I notice the Avent kits - but are they that good or just good at marketing - is there another brand, and or kind of teat that I need to look for. And lastly, keeping stuff clean...I noticed that the Avent microwave steraliser was about $70, but the Big W brand one looked about the same but was $19 - do they do the same job or is there one that is clearly the best?

Any advice much appreciated.
Thanks
FG

Hiya FG. It does sound like a great system, and I was going to give it a go with my firstborn but my DH wasn't as motivated as me to take part.
I'm going to suggest you wait a couple of weeks before you start because that's valuable time for you and baby to learn how to breastfeed. Feeding from the bottle is much easier for bubs than the breast, so beware that you may have a baby who doesn't transfer from bottle to breast without a fuss.
I have a hand pump that was passed on to me from a relative. I have found it sufficient in the past for getting enough milk for when I needed it (when going out or whatever). If you are only giving her one feed of ebm per day then you'll probably find the hand pump sufficient. You could even try hand expressing (without a pump) first to see if that works for you before shelling out for a pump.
I've heard that the TT bottles are great. I've also heard that Pidgeon make a teat that's got a cross-shaped hole in it that aparently imitates the flow of milk from the breast pretty well.
Don't know anything about sterilisers though, sorry. I have always just used milton.
GL!

I haven't done this myself, just wanted to pass on some info about this approach I got from a lactation consultant. Basically she said even if you don't BF for that 1 feed a day, she suggested you still need to express then and not skip that 'feed' altogether. Her reason was supply related i.e. if you skip the feed entirely your body will adjust and produce less milk. So she kind of said yes, you can get your hubby to do the feed but you will want to get up and express at about the same time anyway. She was talking about taking over a 3am feed though.....if you are talking evening you may be able to express a bit earlier than the feed to still give you a block of sleep.
As I said I haven't done it so this is purely from a theoretical perspective :)

I did this and it works well, especially if you have a nipple injury that needs a rest or you need a sleep.

Be mindful not to over pump because you can end up with sore engorged breasts for longer than need be. But also be careful not to go too long between expressing off either.

Taking a bit extra off after every BF over a day should work out enough for a feed. Newborns have really small tummies so about 50mls or so would do for the first week or two.

My DH would do the night shift. I'd feed at about 10pm then go off to bed. He'd do the next feed (midnight-ish) and put bub to bed then I'd do the next one whatever time that came about.

I have the Avent isis pump and microwave steriliser and it is great. When I lost mine in a move (:rolleyes:) I had to get another one the same! I was also lent one for a while and they are up to lasting the distance!

We are doing this some of the time, and it's working great. Here's what I learned when I was researching it:

- between 4-6 weeks is the ideal time to introduce a bottle, because the baby has (theoretically) gotten good at breastfeeding by then (some won't have), but they are not yet so set in their ways that they won't take to a bottle. Note that it's really important that your baby be good at breastfeeding before you try a bottle. This is because the bottle is easier to get milk out of than the breast, and it requires a different jaw action to do it. So if you give the baby a bottle too often or too early, you risk them deciding that the breast is no good, and then you have a problem.

- you have to keep expressing to maintain your supply. I found I had to gradually build up the amount I could express at a time.

- you should choose the lowest flow teat you can find. This is because faster flow will be too much for a young baby anyway, and you want to make them work for their milk, to reduce the difference between the bottle and the breast.

We first gave DD a bottle of expressed milk at about 4 weeks, but only because she was (and is) a very good feeder. If we'd been having trouble with the breastfeeding I would have waited longer to try that. She took to the bottle easily. I've let DH give her all the bottle feeds, because we figure that will confuse her less than if I do it. Getting DH to give her a feed late at night was a lifesaver for me at first, but remember that most babies change their sleeping habits quite fast anyway. Now, at 8 weeks, DD Is sleeping for 5-6 hours overnight, and I am not so desperate for the sleep that I need DH to give her a bottle any more. So we are still doing it occasionally, when I have to go out, but not for the same reason.

I bought the Medela Swing Pump before DD arrived, and we are using Medela bottles. I find they work well, but I don't have any comparison with other brands, so can't comment. We have:

- one pump
- two bottles (one is 150ml, one is 250ml), but I've just ordered more bottles, because it seems that 150ml is a convenient size for me to pump into to store in the fridge).
- 3 small teats and one medium teat that we haven't used
- a box of special bags for storing braestmilk in the freezer, that won't leach nasty chemicals into it, and so forth. You can't reuse these, but since I don't plan to be freezing that much milk, I think they will last a long time, which is good because they are expensive.

Have to say, the breast pump is one of the more useful things I've bought. Great for relieving uncomfortable engorged breasts!

Hope that helps.

Tenar - there has been thread in the past about those bags. Sometimes the 'proper' bags can be hard to find, and zip locs can be a good alternative.
Will ziplocs ooze icky chemicals?

You can freeze the avent bottles. They sell them as "freezer storage bottles" with 4 in a box and you can reuse them endlessly. I did the bags and they were an annoyance so I'm kind of glad with all this chemical leaching plastic bizzo that they aren't readily available anymore. Well where I live anyway.

Sorry, I cant help you with the whole BF thing (I formula feed) but I can tell you that you want to buy BPA free bottles and plastic storage containers.
I got regular bottles and then did some research and found out that plastics with BPA in them have been banned for use for babies in some countries.
The packaging on the "safe" ones has BPA free on them.
GL

If you're looking for BPA free bottles try Cherub baby (they have a website where you can order online). I got a great starter kit that included a breast pump, steriliser and two bottles, all BPA free for around $70 or $80. I'm yet to try it all out, but thought it was a good pack for getting started and seeing if expressing etc works for us.

Farmgirl, there is some good advice in this thread. It is great that this works for some people, but I feel that I would be remiss not to tell you that this is the minority of cases. Most of us plan to have our partners do one feed, but often this doesn't work out as we hoped. I am not saying this to put you off, but just so you know up front, to save disappointment down the track.

Tenar has raised some very valid points about introducing a bottle early. It is recommended that you use a spoon or cup for feeding EBM in the early weeks if EBM is needed, as introducing a bottle early can cause problems with breastfeeding. And missing feeds without expressing in the first 6 - 12 weeks when supply and demand is being worked out by your body can have an impact on your ongoing supply. As well as that, most mums have too much milk in the early weeks and therefore feel really full when missing a feed. So often the reality is that much as we want to miss the feed and sleep, we can't anyway as we are too uncomfortable. And one more thing is that establishing breastfeeding in the early days with a newborn can be really tough, and trying to figure out and fit in expressing as well can add a lot of stress.

Dads can help out with baby in so many ways and have bonding time even when they are not giving feeds. They can change the nappy and bring baby to you for feeds, they can hold and comfort an unsettled baby while you rest (often babies settle better on Dad's chest where there is no milk smell), and/or they can do the bathing. And of course any help with washing etc will be very much appreciated!

It might be an idea to keep these things in mind, and see how you go in the first weeks before you make a decision. If all is going well and you want to give it a try, that's great. If not, I am sure you will find another arrangement that works for you.

With regard to what you need, I wouldn't get too much up front. See how you go. You can always buy a pump and accessories after the baby is born. If it looks like you will be expressing frequently, it will be worthwhile spending more for a good electric pump. It might be though that you find that you won't express much and a cheaper one will be fine. You can also hire pumps. For EBM storage I recommend the Avent cups as being the best value. Zip lock bags such as Glad freezer bags are not recommended as there are concerns about their safety. And you don't need a steriliser - the current recommendations are that you don't need to sterilise equipment used for breastmilk - just wash in cold water first, then in warm soapy water at least once in 24 hours when they have been used.

I hope this helps.

hi, I too would wait till breast feeding is established b4 going onto the bottle. You do get use to getting up at night, it isn't so bad as long as you get some naps in during the day :pray:. After saying that i waited too long (5 months) and had a terrible time getting my DD to take the bottle. I used the Medela bottles which i think are BPA free as I had a Medela breast pump and the bottles twisted onto it. This was really convinient as i didn't have to transfer it to another bottle or freezer bag and popped it straight into the freezer or fridge. I would then warm the bottle, put a teat on it and it was ready to go. I would definately consider buying the pump and bottles in the same brand.
I tried to use some ziplock bags, but i thought they were a pain unless you had a surplus of EBM.
There is no need to sterilise if you are exclusively using EBM bc it naturally contains antibiotics to kill off nasty germs.
Hope that helps.

Great advice here re establishing the breastfeeding first.

Couple of things I wanted to add..

Avent bottles have BPA. Passes our safety standards, but as someone else pointed out, BPA is banned in other countries, so may be worth researching.

Was going to mention about not needing to sterilise if you're only using breastmilk, but that's been covered!

And also wanted to say it isn't a big deal if bub doesn't take to a bottle. Neither of mine ever did, never needed to.. I did all the feeds in those early months, and they can move onto a sippy cup quite early.. 6 mths-ish when they start solids. So there's really no need for a baby to accept a bottle.

I agree that you may find just sitting up in bed (or staying lying down!) for a quick 10min feed and then getting straight back to sleep is much easier on everyone (and your boobs!) than having to warm up a bottle (bub can wake up waaaay too much and be harder to settle. Babies settle so nicely on the breast and lovely sleepy hormones are produced for both mum & bub during the feeds so everyone remains fairly rested. I can vouch for that, as both my babies fed 3-4hrly (or more) around the clock for many many many months and I didn't suffer too much sleep deprivation with breastfeeding & co-sleeping.

We never did DH doing a feed for the reason Tenar mentioned.. that I would really need to get up and express that missed feed anyway.. so it's much easier to just feed and get back to that precious sleep :)

All the best with your plans and your bub. Just remember to do whatever works.. while something may sound like a good idea, your bub or your boobs might have other ideas! :)

This is actually the approach that Gina Ford advocates in her Contented Little Baby Book. If you want a step by step instruction manual for how to go about it, I suggest you have a look. Don't worry about the routine if that's not what you want to do...but her guidelines for expressing at certain times of the day in order to have the full expressed feed ready to go for evenings are good.

Mind you...I tried it and I found that my body simply did not respond to the pump. I had a great deal of difficulty expressing and so I have this virtually brand new electric pump in the cupboard collecting dust. I tried expressing again this time around with DD and same thing. I just can't express.

Liz, thanks for mentioning the "sleepy hormones" - I forgot about that one! Interestingly, studies have shown that parents of bf babies actually get more sleep than ff babies, even though bf babies often feed more often! The sleepy hormones which put both mum and bub straight back to sleep after (or during!!) a feed are probably a big part of this.

I also wanted to add that starting a baby on a bottle early is no guarantee they will continue to take one. DS1 drank from a bottle for his first week until his tongue-tie was snipped, and then once he could attach to the bresat he never drank from a bottle again! DS2 had a bottle of EBM once or twice a week in the beginning as I wanted him to be able to drink from one. But after a few weeks he decided never to take a bottle again. It was never a problem with either DS even though I also returned to work. They both drank from a sippy cup from about 3 months so I could still leave them for someone else to feed. Getting them used to a bottle is not necessary and is not a guarantee that they will continue to take it anyway.

I also feel that I must mention that Gina Ford's book is not recommended for bfing babies, as her routines do not recognise the frequency with which most babies need to feed to get enough milk and to establish and maintain mum's supply. Unfortunately many mums don't realise this until they have already lost their supply :(

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Liz, thanks for mentioning the "sleepy hormones" - I forgot about that one! Interestingly, studies have shown that parents of bf babies actually get more sleep than ff babies, even though bf babies often feed more often! The sleepy hormones which put both mum and bub straight back to sleep after (or during!!) a feed are probably a big part of this.

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The nurses were always happy to see me drifting off while feeding Kayla in the NICU, they knew we were having a good feed LOL.

Ah, I miss that LOL! I could sure use some sleepy bfing hormones to put me back to sleep in the middle of the night sometimes!

i did this for teh first 6 weeks.
i used teh avent system, you can buy a kit which is pump bottles and sterliser for about $150 all up saves you about 100 bucks it was great.

i loved the pump easy to use easy to clean. bottles are good and a variety of teats so they always suit the baby.

I had the same plan as you did, farmgirl, before my DD was born, and for exactly the same reasons (although I never read Gina Ford...).

But I found that DP would get home and take care of the whole evening, bath, cuddle, bed routine and give me a break then. I also found that my DD was such a great bfer and got so very efficient at it that I was hardly up at all during the night and was back asleep within 45 mins of getting up. She always fell asleep at the breast and I never had the pacing the floor kind of unsettled behaviour I was expecting. So in the end, because I actually got plenty of sleep, we didn't bother to go with the expressing for a bf thing. I did express when DD dropped a feed or I needed to relieve engorgement, so I had bottles to give to anyone babysitting her.

I think you'd be best off waiting to see how you go and then deciding whether it will work for you or not.

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Most of us plan to have our partners do one feed, but often this doesn't work out as we hoped. I am not saying this to put you off, but just so you know up front, to save disappointment down the track.

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.i tend to agree....

I have a 3 week old - its my 4th child - and can i tell you i have never felt so full of energy and non sleep deprived - honest. Reason: Harry is in bed with me. I feed him in bed (dh has been kicked out....temporarily of course....;), it means im not getting out of bed in the cold - we can stay warm snuggled under the blankets.... (read up on SIDS if consdiering this option...). I have had so many comments 'wow, you look great" or 'you dont look like you have a newborn' - its because i am essentially resting whilst he is feeding. I wish i had of done it with my other children.

I also found the whole expressing thing a chore...i could never get the hang of it (and there is a knack to it.) and i found by the time i squeezed my 30mls out, i may have just as well fed the baby !!!! Thats just my input anyway.
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Good luck with it all....

I co-sleep, so DS is in bed with us most the night, but I've just started expressing this week. He is almost 4 months. I decided I needed to have some back up as I have appt's and things coming up. I would LOVE DH to do some feeds at night because Im finding as Ds gets bigger he's not feeding and falling asleep anymore, he's more distracted.
I use a hand pump and it's great. I've used it with all my three. I use the avent. I also dont have a steriliser, I just boil for a few minutes. Im finding I can pump out 80mls in about 10mins. I only express at 7am each day, one side, then offer DS the other side.
Good luck xo

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Gina Ford's book is not recommended for bfing babies, as her routines do not recognise the frequency with which most babies need to feed to get enough milk and to establish and maintain mum's supply. Unfortunately many mums don't realise this until they have already lost their supply :(

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The last thing I want to do is pick a fight but I bf'd DS for 20 months based on Gina Ford's routine. If the book is read in its entirety she emphasises that if a baby is hungry it must be fed regardless of the time. She also mentions the 6 week growth spurt and demand for extra breastmilk several times. I have learned never to mention my familiarity with Gina here on BB because it always gets shot down in flames but she does talk a lot about expressing, maintaining adequate supply and having the partner do a feed and goes into great detail about it and I think the OP could get some good how-to tips from there - whether she wants to "routine" her baby or not.

Curly, I don't want to pick a fight either LOL! I think it's great that the book worked for you, and everyone is entitled to do what works best for them. I am the last person who is going to judge or criticise others for their choices. I just wanted to point out that this doesn't work for everyone as I think people should be aware that there is no one magic way to do things. I am sorry that you feel you can't talk about your experiences - you should be able to share.

The 6 week growth spurt is an interesting topic actually (sorry to go OT). It used to be believed that this was due to baby increasing their demand for milk and boosting mum's supply. Interestingly we know now that babies drink the same average daily quantity from 1 month to 6 months of age, so there goes the "extra milk" theory. It is still a mystery as to what causes these "fussy times" but the latest theory is that it is an increased need for sucking at times of peak development.

Congratulations Farmgirl.
There were a couple of things that sprang to mind when I saw your post becuase, like others, I had considered trying this sort of thing too.
Expressing can work great for some, but it is often a real chore, so much so that there's no net benefit.
Another reason to consider putting off expressing till later is that in the early days they feed so often anyway that skipping one feed may not give you much of a break.

The best thing that helped me get more sleep will bfing was to master feeding while lying down. It is entirely possible to sleep while your baby feeds - it's bliss! Unfortunately I couldn't get the knack till DS was 5-6 months old (we had a lot of problems with attachment in the early months, so that's probably why), but some lucky mums do manage it early on.

Good luck and all the best to you

Hello everyone,
Thanks so much for the advice and suggestions - they have really helped me out. I think that I will do as suggested and wait a few weeks before trying the bottle - as I want to get BF estabilished (if possible) - I am also going to try the BF while lying down position - could be a good way of getting some rest and feeding in at the same time!

A girl at work is going to sell me her medela swing to express with at a really good price (only a little bit more than a new handpump would cost), so that covers that base - and now I'll prob get the medela bottles (after nearly getting the TT ones), but i'll wait till after Tex comes home etc to get those in case it does not look like the system will work for us!

Thanks again for the practical advice - really appreciate it!
FG

I'm really pleased that this thread has helped you. It can be really daunting wondering how things will work with a new baby.

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I want to get BF estabilished (if possible)

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That was exactly what I said before DS1 was born. A friend told me at the time, that bfing is nearly always possible with the right information and support. Turns out I had a really, really difficult start, but she was right - she referred me to the ABA and I got the right information and support and was able to establish bfing and continue. If you are having difficulties after the baby is born, give the ABA helpline number a call - 1800 mum 2 mum. It is toll free and 24 hours and you don't have to be a member. It can make a huge difference!

Best of luck with it all hun. It is great that you are preparing yourself early. I can't wait to read your birth announcement!