UREGENT question regarding natural colour 160b (Annatto)

Perhaps someone doing failsafe could help, i've been madly researching but both kids high needs at the moment. Need a quick answer,

Does anyone know if 160b (annatto) is used in flavoured milks? or any brands particular. Have called their customer service line, they were very reluctant and said they'd reply via mail, not expecting a proper answer.

Much appreciated if you can help, wish i had the time to sit here and wade through all the google info. Some info on fedupwithfoodadditives too, but couldn't find about the flavoured milks.

cheers.

Just looking quickly in Fed Up and it doesn't mention brands.

It's included in yoghurt, breakfast cereals, vanilla ice cream, crumbed products like fish fingers, sliced cheese (eeks!), biscuits.

It can cause a grouch next day reaction if that's any help! Maybe this is C's problem cos he loves cheese slices...

It should be listed as part of the ingredient listing on the product. I also look out for 160b, but don't tend to get flavoured milks, so cannot help you with brands. Have you tried looking the brand websites? Often they will have ingredient listings on those.

Just a warning, some oven fries use 160b. Something I was surprised to find.

Not listed on the packet, in fact NO "numbers" listed on the packet.

I am just suspecting its in a product i drink daily, because when i don't have it i am feral, and i've tried quitting so many times but can't.

Am seriously looking in to failsafe, but my god it looks so restrictive and time consuming...is it something that would get easier in time? anyone on here doing failsafe?

A few BB'ers have done failsafe, or do some version of it.

Here is one thread:
http://forums.bellybelly.com.au/foru...fe-eating.html

Thanks for that. Ordering the book now.

You should get Fed Up too. They go hand in hand and it's an interesting read!

I don't do failsafe but plan on it. Sooner rather than later I might add! I use Fed Up as a bit of a lifestyle guide and for things not to buy when I'm shopping.

I made a fatal error this week, Because I was slack with the cooking I bought le snacks and lcm's for the kids. They have been beastly ferals :wall:

I haven't really noticed any salycilite sensitivities but I'm going to give it a go. The biggest hurdle is convincing DH

I don't actually DO failsafe, but I do follow it loosely, as DS reacts to alot of things. He is definitely salicylate sensitive, and reacts to a few additives (so I try to avoid as many as possible). Yes, it is time consuming, but it does get easier as time goes on. I would say it takes awhile though, at least 6 months before the new stuff becomes 'normal'. Very worthwhile though, for us anyway.

I have no idea is 160b is in flavoured milks, because we can't have milk :lol:, but it should definitely be listed if it is an ingredient.

160b is a regular in flavoured milk - especially Banana or anything even vaguely yellow. Calciyum has it in all flavours so I had to go to Moove for the boy - who dont use it in chocolate. Only one flavour of one brand of Yoghurt doesnt have it too... I can't get cheese slices without it without paying $7 a pack..

Its horribly feral and in practically everything with gay abandon. Even bread crumbs!

ETA Oh! And Ice cream! The only one ice cream without it is $9 for 4l! Its maddening.

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The biggest hurdle is convincing DH

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Same problem here, I really wanted to do it with DD1, but DH thought it was no need. Could have saved us a lot of pain if we had. DD1 seems to be much better now, but I do think there is still something there that if it builds up can cause issues. Good luck!

I don't follow it strictly, but I do avoid sugar and the listed preservatives for the most part. DH thought I was being pedantic at first, but he has now seen the resulting change in behaviour often enough to know when DS1 particularly has had sugar or a preservative he reacts to. When I told DS1's paed recently that I avoid them she said straight away that he'd be very sensitive to those things - DH was there to hear that too, but he had already been convinced by then.

I've been reading the book and am more than convinced. I am almost certain that my long term treatment resistant PND is not so much PND as food intolerance!! So much of my own childhood behaviour rings true in the personal testaments. I am also seeing some of the same things in my 3 year old whom i thought was just having a long term terrrible two phase.

As i'm reading the book and any spare minute i have i plan to research this and start going failsafe. Need to convincve DH and find a supportive dietician. Will try it on myself before the children as they are just too fussy at the moment. I think when DH sees a change in me, he will want to do it for the boys. I plan to start a blog on this just because i have so much going on in my head i need to let it out somewhere, and i think my DH is getting sick of hearing the words additives, behaviour, feeling bad/sick etc.

I particularly think i have an intolerance to the salycilates as all the foods on the avoid list are the ones i love and crave, and all the ones on the OK list are ones i hate and never eat!

Anyway ta for the advice xxx

I'm trying to figure out exactly what triggers responses in myself. I don't and haven't had behavioral issues but get asthma and migranes. I know tomato sauce is a problem but it could either be additives such as sulfor dioxide or salycilates :dunno:

Sounds like a good plan Tan :) blogging it sounds good too. Please keep us posted with how you go, or send me a link to your blog......would love to read it!

As for the boys, particularly with DS1, just have a little look at his behaviour and when he has eaten certain things. Some reactions are really easy to pick, others are much more difficult because they build up over time. But if you spot an easy one, then just try removing that one factor from his diet - you could be amazed at how just one little thing can cause huge problems! Like I said, I haven't actually done the failsafe plan, but I have over time picked up different problems, one by one. Our biggest, biggest factors come from being soy and dairy intolerant, and I've known that for most of this year. But although we saw massive improvements after removing those things, I started to notice another, different problem - the salicylate sensitivity. It is actually quite a different reaction for my DS, but it can be hard to spot because at only just 2 years, they can't tell you a great deal. But the intolerances lead to sleep and behavioural difficulties (big time) which leads to screaming. And the salicylates lead to terrible stomach cramps - which also leads to screaming ;). But we can tell the difference now, thank goodness.

I know that all seems like a big ramble ;) but I know that reading Astrid and Christy's stories really helped me in searching for what was upsetting my DS. Alot of it was stuff that I had never heard of, and probably wouldn't have if not for BB.

Good luck, I hope you see great success from changing your eating! :D

Just for those looking at the salicylate thing - I am by no means an expert, and talking to our naturopath really helped me to understand it a little better. Salicylates are in almost everything! They are almost impossible to avoid altogether. Most people find that they react only to those foods that are categorised as being very high, or high, in salicylates. So that can be a good starting point, just eliminating those foods.

And I do think that it is so individual. DS reacts worse to some things in the very high group than others. Raw tomato is by far his very biggest trigger. Strawberries and grapes, along with all dried fruit are way up there too. But cooked tomato isn't as bad. I haven't actually looked into this enough to know why that might be.

Again, rambling, but HTHs :)

Yep Janie I get that :)

Thanks Janie, that did help!

I just wanted to update:

I found taking on the salicylates challenge too much at this point as i'm currently coming off my PND medication. However, the irony of that is that what is supposed to be a stressful uncomfortable time (as anyone who's come off these types of meds will understand) has not been! I have hardly even noticed the reduction in my medication and i am sure it is due to the food changes i have made which are:

Avoiding almost all the food chemicals listed in the book (colours, preservatives, antioxidents etc), especially Annatto which i've decided is evil. I particularly noticed it in the yoghurt i buy my boys, and DS1 gets hypo and irate afterwards. I am so glad i linked this. For myself i have almost completely cut out dairy. I only have about 200ml either in coffee or cereal, and for me thats been the hugest change... i am no longer bloated, bowel habits have changed dramatically, and when on one day i did have several serves of dairy i found myself moody and with toilet urgency! So i suspect i might be intolerant to anything more than tiny amounts. I have also cut out sweets & snacky foods instead eating almonds or fruit.

So this has been a great experience. I'm not sure when i'll get the energy to take on the salicylate challenge, but for now the benefits have been really good so i'll be sticking with it.

Thanks again for all the support & info.

Tan, that is great!!!! You know, I found myself nodding all the way through your post LOL. So much of that rings true for me. I have been tested, only because DS was, and found that I am dairy, soy and nut intolerant. I do notice a big change in my levels of tiredness, grumpiness, and bowel habits when I have too much of those things, particularly dairy. You might find that eliminating dairy completely (or almost completely) will really help. Or you might find that the 200ml is something your body can handle. It's really just trial and error, as you know :). Oh, and if you are dairy intolerant, there is every chance your boys are too. (Did you know that there are links between babies having reflux and being dairy intolerant?).

The salicylates challenge is massive, but I wouldn't be too worried about doing for now if I were you. It may not even be a problem for you. And you can spend time now looking carefully at the dairy thing, and additives, without being confused about what it causing what.

I am so, so glad to hear how happy you sound with all of this Tan, and really relieved for you that coming off your meds is going well. It's so good to read :D. You're a champ!

Yep Janie I am so sure Dairy is a culprit for many things here. I'm paying particular attention to it alone now and realised that not long after my morning coffee, i get the queasy tummy and bowel urgency (sorry tmi). When i was drinking upwards of a litre a day i was like this all day long, and i thought that was normal because i've been like that my whole life. I'm wanting to move now to cutting out milk as a beverage for myself completely and see how i go. Because the funny thing is that since cutting down the amount of coffee i drink, i'm not even craving coffee anymore either, i almost couldn't be bothered making it this morning... interesting.

As for the reflux, both my boys had severe reflux, DS1 we just plodded along with it and he responded to medication and grew out of it relatively soon. But DS2 we had so many issues, (being breastfed i did elminate dairy and did see improvement). We had him tested for dairy allergy (via a stool sample) but it came back normal, which was bizzarre because when i wasn't eating dairy and he was bf he was better. But i think intolerance is a separate issue and my paed never discussed it.... at the time i was also suffering PND so i probably didn't connect the dots either.

Gradually i'll look in to dairy for the boys because i know when DS1 has a milo (which is actually about 1/4 tsp of nesquick with 200ml of milk - the only way i can get him to drink milk) he gets very "roudy" afterwards, and somewhat definant. Yesterday i noticed it particularly because i have been taking note of what he consumes and how he is afterwards. At first i thought it must be the nesquick so i through that in the bin, but now i'm wondering if its the milk? We have aktivite as well which from the nutritional panel seems healthier, so through trial and error i guess it will be a long process of seeing what happens.

Anyway tomorrow will be our first shop scrutinising labels, and i'll feel a lot better once i know we have healthier things in the house!

I SO hear you on the "I've been like this my whole life so didn't realise it wasn't normal"!!! That's exactly how I felt when I discovered what a difference going without dairy made!

Allergy and intolerance are two different things. TBH, you won't have much luck with striaght HCPs getting the kids tested for for a cows milk protein intolerance. In fact they will likely scoff at you. I had to find a naturopath who was experienced in the area (he was recommended by a friend). I initially went just for DS, but he sent us both off for blood tests as he (and I) suspected I had an issue too.

As for looking for replacements, be VERY wary of soy. As I mentioned earlier, both DS and I are intolerant to soy protein as well, in fact I think it's DS's biggest trigger. Many people who can't handle cow's milk have similar issues with soy. There are other, safer, milk replacements out there.

Good luck with your first shop! You will find that it will take awhile, but you do get better, and faster at it with practice!

ETA I also referred an IRL friend who is a BBer to the same naturopath for similar issues, I will see if she's happy to post her experiences in this thread :)

Hey, aforementioned friend here. :D

After seeing the amazing results Janie was having, i booked my daughters into the same natropath.

The igG blood test is done at a pathology lab. It is a new blood test in Australia, has only been around for a little while. Although they have been able to test for allergies for a long time, they havn't been able to test for sensitivities. If you do a search for ARL pathology and igG you'll find a little info. I am of a scientific mind and like definitive answers so i didn't really have the drive or patience for an elimination diet. I liked the fact i got an answer from the blood test.

Turns out both my daughter and i have sensitivities. Soy and Dairy being the main culprits. Like Janie says, often a cows milk protein and soy protein intolerance go hand in hand. Since cutting these out my daughter has started doing formed poo for the first time in her little life! Not only that, she sleeps better and her general behavior is improved. Don't worry she still has 2 year old meltdowns, but generally she is better.

It is really hard to avoid soy, but for all our sake, it is soooo worth it! Perhaps you could ring ARL and see if there is a referring hcp in your area.

One thing i can tell you is that we can have A2 milk. It has a different protein in it and is often tolerated by those who can't have regular milk. We use it to make yoghurt with a goats yoghurt starter. We also have goat and sheep cheese instead or dairy and it is great. Important to noe though, not successful for everyone. I know Janie still can't have A2. All safeway and coles sell them, as do some independent stores.

(fak now) Non dairy alternatives- goat, sheep products. rice milk.

There is a great on line store called allergyblock where you can shop by ingredients you DONT want. Very handy!

Anyway, that's my story and happy to answer any questions i can! :D

F, that is a great idea to contact ARL and see if that's a way of finding a referring practioner!!!! Why didn't I think of that? :doh: Knew I asked you to pop in here for a reason ;).

WHY oh WHY haven't I heard of allergyblock??? Off to check it out now, thanks chick :)

ETA I just checked out ARL's website, and surprise surprise, they have a practitioner directory. I think there were 5 to choose from in WA Tan (I think that's where you are???). If you're interested ;)

Faguni thank you SO SO much! Do you know how i'd go about accessing that kind of testing in WA? I was going to ask about the A2 milk also as i am wanting to get DS2 off formula but not keen on transitioning to regular milk. DS2 was on oat milk while i was pregnant and had a low BM supply and seemed fine on that. Can you elaborate on the benefits you've had with A2 milk if you get a chance? ie, any mental or physical changes? also would you think that is superior to something like rice or oat? we went with oat milk because it had less carbs than rice milk.

Ta for the allergy block info, off to have a look.

When bf i cut out dairy and replaced with soy, he was better but probably not optimal. And honestly i really don't like the taste of soy products.

I too am frustrated by the time and effort of the elimination challenges, so i will see if i can locate a practitioner here, there's never much of anything here in WA (no offence) but its taken me years to find good dr's etc.

Also i've asked the mods for a sticky support thread where we could discuss failsafe, food chemical avoidance and such, as would be a great resource and very helpful for me at least.

thanks again x

Tan, I edited my last post to mention that I found some info that might be helpful to you on the ARL site ;)

No prob, glad to help. :)

So i guess you could do as Janie suggested and have a look at the practitioners in Wa and make an appointment to see them. Here, save you the search...

WA

Ms Bernadette Hovey
Natural Health Clinic
ATT: Ms Hovey
COMO WA 6152
0422 860 309

Dr Sally Cook
East Fremantle Medical Centre
12 Silas St
EAST FREMANTLE WA 6158
08 9339 4116

Dr Craig Turner
Churchill Health Centre
217 Nicholson Rd
SHENTON PARK WA 6008
08 9381 3691

Dr William Barnes
Resort to Health
246 South Tce
SOUTH FREMANTLE WA 6162
08 9433 3255

Miss Dana Kington
A Natural Self
244 South Tce
SOUTH FREMANTLE WA 6162
08 9433 6267

Cows can have slightly different genetics. There are two genes that are one amino acid apart. Depending on which gene the cow has she can produce slightly different milk. Most cows produce milk that has A1 beta casein., this is what causes the issues for us. A2 milk has a slightly different protein called A2 beta casein. This is what is thought to be the original dairy protein but over time it has changed and now A1 dominates. Some people with intolerances to A1 are fine with A2. It is definitely worth a shot.
With any other sort of cows milk i get asthma related symptoms, and my D has runny poo and behavioural issues. (If i am being totally honest, i am way less moody, sleep better and have a general feeling that i am coping better when i eat 'properly' ;) When i crack it over something little, my husband now says "What have you been eating?" :lol: ) We don't have the problems with A2.

But, it doesn't work for everyone.....

I prefer A2 to rice or oat because of the superior calcium content. Besides that it tastes great. :D I find rice milk a little sweet. I don't mind goat and sheeps milk and would reach for that before rice or oat. But having said that i do have rice and oat milk in the cupboard!

Prior to finding about the soy intolerance, i would avoid it like the plague anyway, I have read too much bad press on the phytoestrogens, cancer links, heavy metals blah blah blah. So am more than happy to be avoiding it all together.

Again, thanks so much Falguni, you've saved me lots of time there!

Does anyone have issues with eggs?

its the only thing i've had today out of the ordinary and my bowel issues have returned, feel bloated, sick tummy and crappy. It can only be the eggs as everything else i've eaten has been exactly what i have every other day.

We have switched to A2 milk, it is very expensive but i see it as an investment in my children's future :) We also no longer buy any snacks (no chocolate, biscuits, chips) only fruit veg, pasta, rice. Everything else i am making from scratch. So saving money on the junk kind of compenates.

How are you going with this stuff now hun?

Janie - Tan has actually left BB :(

Hope you have her on FB or can contact her elsewhere.

I am glad this thread was bumped though, very interesting. As you know, I've suspected a dairy intolerance with DS1 for a long time but never had it confirmed, I talked to his paed about it but got nowhere really. We avoid yoghurt, have very small amounts of hard cheese and he drinks lactose free milk which seems to be OK for him. Going very slowly with DS2 and dairy. So far, OK I think (although his sleep is pretty bad atm, but that's probably not related...who knows).

I have never tolerated dairy very well. I don't eat much of it, usually just a bit of milk in tea/coffee and with cereal. Is there usually a family link? My brother was told recently after surgery that he is lactose intolerant (the surgeon could tell by his bowel apparently??) and should avoid dairy.

We are thinking of trying to Failsafe diet - mainly due to DS behaviour and lack of abitity to sit still and concentrate..

Anyway, Janie, can you PM me the naturopath and the place you went for blood tests. What exactly can they test for?

Also, can anyone explain to me the science behind naturopaths etc and how you know that these really are sensitivities etc?