Giving up child seat on train to an adult (who is NOT pregnant, elderly nor disabled)

Hi all,

Apologies in advance as this will be long ... but i DO have a couple of questions at the end i'm hoping you can help me out with :pray:

DP & i decided we would travel for the first time together as a family outing with our 3year old DD on the V/line train from where we live in Ballarat to Melb yesterday morning to make it an exciting day for DD as she loves to go to Melb (she loves lots of people, buildings & trams).

DP & i had our full-fare V/line tickets (DD travels free being under age) and when we boarded the train there were many available seats so DD sat on her own seat.

Approx half through the train journey the train stopped at the suburb of Melton where a woman about 50 nicely dressed boarded the train and approached my DP in a rude and condescending manner, her not asking but demanding telling him to remove our DD off her seat and telling him what to do like he was an idiot, telling him to put her on his lap.

Now, he & i had no problem in giving her seat to anyone that asked BUT to be ' told ' in such an ill-mannered unappropriate way and not be politey asked WE were not happy.

I'm a body language reading person & i clearly noticed that when she originally approached DP she was already taking her handbag off her shoulder & motioning as if she was about to sit down. So obvious she has done this before in the same manner, as rudeness clearly has worked for her in the past.

So when we arrived at Sth Cross station (end of train journey) i waited for passengers to leave as i didn't want to make a scene. And this woman in question moved to sit next to her friend across the aisle & down a couple of seats.

I told DP to leave the train with DD and i would meet him on the platform. I then approached this woman with self control and said to her "Excuse me but could i kindly suggest the next time you want another passenger to remove their child for YOU to be able to sit down it would be within your interest to ASK in a polite manner" ... then she rudley interupted me sitting next to her friend with a awful smirk and said to me " You are to remove your child OFF the seat " ... i said to her " My issue is not my removing my child off the seat as i WE would have gladly given her seat to anyone BUT you spoke to my partner in such a rude uncalled for manner. Then her friend joined in arguing with her friend towards me going on about i have to give up my child's seat to an adult. I told her to nicely keep out of the conversation as it's her friend i have the problem with & that her friend needs to learn to use her manners in the future. I said to her that she has clearly upset us as a family & it wasn't neccesary. Then this woman in question said with a huge smirk in a condescending manner "Oh, i'm sorry if I'VE UPSET YOU " ... and i said " Oh, and that's sounds so sincere". The she yelled at me with a snarl "I don't have to take your sh@t". My realising this woman couldn't understand she was in the wrong with her behaviour on public transport i thought i've said what i've had to say to her and hopefully in the future she will have a good think about her very easy rude mannerism towards people. Then as i went to walk up the carriage of the train she came from behind me with her friend and she physically pushed me from behind. I then was not only in shock but in an out of character rage. I instantly pointed my finger at her screaming as clear & as loud as i could " HOW DEAR YOU TOUCH ME AND PUSH ME ". They looked so scared i don't think JUST of my natural reaction BUT that appeared they both may have thought YES they have done something wrong here.

When i got off the train i couldn't believe that wasn't enough for them then they came after me verbally attacking me ... then i said with anger but still with super control " A woman of your MATURE AGE should know better ". I looked at them both as if they were aging old miserable ladies ... and it WORKED. I know it was evil of me and i know it's no excuse after having been physically pushed, sworn at & verbally insulted (and not to mention DP had to sit for 40mins of the train ride with a 14kilo's child breaking his lap) ... i had never done it before in my life but i knew to get to a woman that is aging and trying to look her best for her age is to give the honest impression she looks OLD.

I said it like i meant it to her ... a mature person should act in a more appropriate manner BUT i knew deep down what only i knew what was truely behind my mentioning it. YES i felt guilty BUT i felt damn good as the looks on both their faces went from enjoying the manner of how they were speaking to me ... to their facial expressions looking hurt & actual sad to a degree. I got to the core of them. I don't feel proud of that but i can live with it as i know what they dished out towards me just simply couldn't be compared. The flip side of it these two women i would be guessing were not even 10years older than i ... they might have thought i was younger than my 43years having a small child clearly calling me Mummy on the train ride.

I later saw her in Myers walking past me with her head down very low ... looking worried. I felt gratitude in that as it was telling me if i had done something wrong myself she would have felt angry towards me yet she looked possibly shameful (and DP agreed too as he also witnessed her walk past in the dept store and said if firmly believes that SHE now knows she did wrong).

When we were leaving the station earlier after the incident happened her & her friend approached train staff there ... which got me wondering ' maybe ' it could possible that we didn't HAVE to give our DD's seat to her :think:

NOW for my TWO QUESTIONS ... i have tried to contact V/line via email (no response yet) and was wanting to know What the public transport policies are for verbal & physical behaviour towards other passengers and if they have cameras onboard V/libe trains & if i'm in the position again what Do i do ??

My 2nd question is Do i HAVE to give up our child's seat to an adult that is not pregnant, nor elderly nor disabled. Also does it make a difference that we were Full-Fare paying ticket owners and that the person wanting our child's seat could possibly be a concession card owner if that makes a difference ??

I put this in this thread and not the Boo Hoo thread as i was also curious to ask you all what do think would be the proper etiquette manner in asking someone for a seat for yourself & also a person in my position as yesterday what would have been the ' right way ' (if such a thing) to handle it ??

Once again my lovely BB ladies THANKU THANKU for getting this far in reading my story :loveshower:

I'm a bit like the lady in your story - I'm the person who gets on the train and tells the teenager sitting at the aisle with their bag beside them to move over or the guy with his feet on the seat to take them off so I can sit down etc. I'm always amazed when I see people standing rather than just telling someone to stop hogging extra seats.
That said, I wouldn't expect a child of your daughter's age who is heavy on a lap but too small to be stable standing up to move for me. I would however expect a family to shuffle around to allow a person who needs a seat to sit.
The way I react to people depends on their attitude, I'm one of those people who won't let you in if you tailgate me but I will if you're driving considerately. If your lady had spoken rudely to me family I would have told her to **** off and find a seat on the train tracks. If she approached me with a smile, told me her feet were sore and said please then the story would have a differant ending.
On one hand I think my children should stand for adults but on the other I wouldn't want them to see rudeness rewarded or set an example of kow-towing to a bully.

What an awful experience for you. I would give up my child's seat to ANY adult but would be outraged if I was approached in the way you were. How extremely rude of that lady and to be honest I don't think I would have been able to contain myself until the train stopped, you did well. I would be ringing V-Line and putting in a formal complaint, not sure whether they have cameras, I hope they do, she should be charged with assault.

Regards,
Dianne

Poor you Smiles.

I actually see alot of this happening in Syd as well. Like school kids with massive back packs being YELLED at to get off the seat, even though I STRESS there are other empty seats on the train (but ones in the middle).

Sometimes elderlies need to show respect to get respect. No one would deny them a seat if they asked nicely.

I would have been very peeved if someone gave me that sorta attitude esp on a day where it was suppose to be a fun family outing.

You didn't need attitude like that.

Sorry no advice but big :hug:

If someone told my 7 y.o. to get off a seat and wasn't elderly I would have said No. If they want a seat they can have mine but I would have also made her ask nicely and then I would have stood very close to her in the aisle LOL. And y'know what? I'd be quite happy to pay for an adult seat for my children and show them that we have done so. I think its dangerous for children under a certain age to stand. As for the altercation I would have more than likely acted in the same manner, pointed out the cameras in the vicinity and told her I would be making a police report.

Its not hard to show some manners. I hate it when people automatically assume because a certain demographic has given them grief in the past that they automatically treat them all with contempt. Its disgusting.

I can't believe that womans behaviour, esp shoving you like that, god I think I would've turned around and shoved her back, good on you for being the bigger person.
There are ways to ask for things, all she had to do was ask in a nice manner.
I wonder too about the children and seats because long trips they can't stand up and I couldn't see my 3 yr old staying on my lap for a whole journey.

Yes what an awful experience for you and your family to go through. That lady should be disgusted in herself for the way she spoke to your DP, and for the way she spoke to you and for pushing you!

I know on buses here they have cameras but they are never any use, i was verbally abused and actually assaulted by a group of boys on a bus, they were after my brother and because i was sticking up for him i got stuck in the middle, mind you it was a group of 6 boys and the bus driver just sat there as i was being pushed and even slapped across the face. Nothing was ever done, i rang Action buses and made a complaint against the bus driver and i never got a reply back.

In my honest opinion you should not feel obliged to give up your DD's seat if the person is not pregnant, elderly or disabled it should be up to your discretion or if the person asks in a polite manner. People need to realise they dont get what they want by causing a scene or being down right rude!

I remember one time just after my SIL had her 3rd child we got on a bus it was very packed and in the reserved seats were a group of teenage girls, they saw my SIL with a baby in a sling and they ignored her and continued to talk, i thought it was the most rudest thing i had ever seen they were going to let a woman with a new born baby stand on a bus! so i walked over and said im sorry but you dont look disabled, elderly or even pregnant how about let my friend here sit down.. one of them started to give me a smart ass comment back and i just lost it i said "SHE HAS A BABY, LET HER SIT DOWN!!" the girls soon got up and let her sit down of course started mouthing off to themselves about me but i didnt care. Bus drivers sometimes drive crazy and i didnt want her to slip and risk causing her baby any harm.

Good on you for taking a stand!

Firstly, there is NO way I would give up Charlotte's seat on a train for another totally competant adult - never.
She is just as entitled to ride in that seat as anyone else, she just gets to do it for free - doesnt make her any less entitled to a seat.

Secondly, I hope this doesnt ruin PT travel as a family for you!! We LOVE travelling by PT - Charlotte is currently obsessed with buses lol

My advice to you is if this happens again, do NOT give up Cs seat, stand your ground, and stand up for her rights

I would give up my child's seat for an adult, any adult, whether disabled or not, as I think it's a respectful thing to do.
I do think the behaviour of the woman was inappropriate, but some people are just always rude. I remember going out for a meal with an older woman in a group, the way she addressed the wait staff was embarassing for me, but obviuosly she was very accustomed to speaking like that to younger people.
It is worth considering that she might have been having an off day to begin with, but the pushing was just totally uncalled for.

I wouldn't because I think it is safer for the child to sit on a seat and I would probably stand myself, but if it were me, I would have told her to bugger off and come back when she can ask in a nicer tone than what she did. There is no need for rudeness and I think it is just dumb to expect that a child should be made to give up their seat just because the rules state they do not have to pay a fare. And if she wasn't elderly, pg or disabled I would have said no anyway, even if she did ask nicely.

I do not think small children should be moved for a physically able adult. I have also had to travel on V-line (a 4 hour trip) with DD1 when she was 2 1/2 and I was pregnant. Thankfully I did not have to have her sit on my lap for the trip, but it did make it more stressful wondering what I was going to do if I was asked to move her. When I booked the ticket I advised them I had a child and they said they would organise the seating so that I would have a seat to myself. The seating on that trip was allocated, but people still seemed to sit where they wanted unless someone requested to have their allocated seat.

I can understand though where the rudeness is coming from (I am not condoning it). After spending many years on Melbourne trains and trams, there is a lot of anger towards those who have no manners. School children who have a concession ticket are required by the conditions on the ticket to give up their seat if requested, many do not. Many men and women do not give up their seat to pregnant women, often pregnant will be pushed aside so they get to the seat first (yep happened to me many times). So I think it has gotten to a point that people are just not polite about it anymore. Sadly it does not help the situation and often their anger is taken out on someone who would have done the right thing if asked nicely.

I am interested to know what the V-line policy is on children and seating.

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Approx half through the train journey the train stopped at the suburb of Melton where a woman about 50 nicely dressed boarded the train and approached my DP in a rude and condescending manner, her not asking but demanding telling him to remove our DD off her seat and telling him what to do like he was an idiot, telling him to put her on his lap.

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I travel on v-line regularly, and find that closer to Melbourne people have more of an attitude. Sorry you copped it on this day.

Technically i believe unless you are sitting in prioity seating (which is an offense not to vacate if requested, as it is normally near a door), a concession card traveller only has to vacate their seat if there are no other seats avaliable. If there was any other seat on the train i would have told them to go and seat there, it's her problem if she can't sit near her friend.

And as for her other behaviour, it is just appalling, and i know she won't be, but i hope that she reads this website, and is damn right embarressed by her behaviour.. shows a lot more about her and her self control, along with upbringing, if thats how she thinks people behave.

... All your responses were so heart warming & i'm so overwhelmed by all your thoughtful suggestions.

Two reasons why DP & i didn't refuse this rude woman a seat was Firstly we didn't know what our rights were ' if ' we actually HAD TO ... and Secondly we could see she was clearly getting ready to debate it & we had a long way still to travel on our train journey to Melb and didn't want an ugly situation happening all that way.

Sadly were she pushed me was right in the area of my shoulder blade were i have had extensive physio treatment ... and i felt so bad for DP as he was complaining of his right knee causing him severe pain during the week.

DP made me laugh as he said i should have just fallen to the ground & screamed for help that i'd been attacked rather then save myself from triping as i did loose my footing as the push was that hard.

Also THANKU to those that noticed in the manner in which i conducted myself. I used my manners, was polite, never swore, never insulted (well, actually i did but she didn't know that when i mentioned she is of mature age & should know better) and i never physically touched her nor pushed her and i never got within her personal space. Oh and i never yelled UNTIL she pushed me. My Mum always taught me it takes a much stronger person to contain & try to control their unnecessary actions like swearing, insulting or physical violence AS it only brings you down to that other persons level ... and YOU have just become THEM so what good did you get out of it yourself. I would rather chose to feel proud of myself then ashamed. To know me i'm not of a meek character but actually the opposite. Even DP's Dad after he met me for the 1st time years ago said i have b@lls to other people when they asked what i'm like BUT he apparently said it in a way of respect as to be a strong person you need NOT be a cruel or rude person.
Life is far to short to be surrounded by these sorts of people but sadly they ARE there so it's best to make your point & make it of fair reasoning then it's time to walk away as YOU don't want to waste another moment in the presence of a person of such ill-manner whom doesn't grasp that they may have possibly done something wrong to another human being !!!

Don't get me wrong i'm no angel i too have had moments in life where i have felt my fist clenching getting ready to want to punch but i use every ounce of ' good ' in me to get past that point. And i have to admit to feel that was frightening & i haven't gone there with that feeling in a long time. For that i feel especially proud and hope that my DD has that quality within her too (thanks to her Grandma's too).

****** I will keep you all updated IF i hear anything from V/line what my rights, etc are as a train passenger. ******

I was thinking next time to maybe buy my DD a ticket but i could most likely still have someone expect her to give up her seat even if she has a ticket and paying a Full-Fare ticket for her is just insane & out of the question ... remembering my ticket is not metropolitan but a much more expensive V/Line ticket.

Thank you all again :grouphug: ... and i'm still welcome to any more ideas :D xox

P.S - seats on this train are not priority nor allocated seating to give you all an idea. The woman in question her ticket would have been classed as a Metropolitan ticket as she boarded in suburbia Melb (i know as i've caught the train from her station before).

Reacted with all the class and dignity I have come to know from you Lorelle my firend well done!
WHy is it that 'older people' seem to think manners are only for use by younger people? Respect is earned not demanded. Nasty cow she sounds. You technically have yourself an assault there (you were walking away) but the chances of it going anywhere are pretty much nothing. Sorry mate.
I agree with the others though. How does that woman know that you didn't pay for her?

Hope C had a lovely day anyway.

... Kim, she truely had a magical day as she didn't witness anything said or done to me as i asked DP to remove her from the train when we arrived in Melb before i approached the woman ... he said he didn't ask me WHY as he could see the look on my face i was getting into the ' composed Lorelle action mode ', LOL ... he so knows how to read me ;)

(Kim thank you for a compliment that means the world to me coming from such a wonderful & respected person ... that's you Kim :heartbeat:)

Yeh, DP also said technically she did assault me ... i can only laugh now that he also said i should have put on my acting skills from my days of being on tv commercials and have made it a real drama :rofl: ... (wish i could have rolled on the floor laughing yesterday BUT it was an upsetting start to our Family day out but i by far didn't let it be ruined in the end !!)

There's no excuse for bad manners!

You reacted in a way that would've made my mother proud. She always used to tell us that there is no point yelling and swearing at someone and that the best way is to be calm and come back at them with the truth. That a "mature" woman should know better. Even though you meant it in a spiteful way :p she had nothing to come back with because she knew it was true.

I totally agree... you give no emotion and they just don't know how to handle it. I've been pondering this an awful lot, I too would think given you had a v-line ticket and she had simply a metro ticket that your seat was more valid than hers. But maybe thats my warped way of thinking.

... Rouge i'm so glad you bought that up as i mentioned the exact same thing to DP !!

Rouge, you & i can have ' warped minds ' together, LOL ;)

I did show emotion in sounding & looking upset which would be natural to anyone BUT the key is to not show emotions in an aggressive way like them ... they look confused & simply don't get it ... to me that has always proved that people like that are just simply NOT NICE and more than likely have some deep seeded issue within themself !!

Someone recently said to me that just some people it has something to DO with their unbringing, etc & to accept that ... I for one WILL NEVER accept that as an EXCUSE cause if anyone knew my background they would be mind-blown-away and it has never turned me into a nasty person in life, if anything it has taught me a higher level of compassion towards other.

Funkeefrog i'm so glad you mentioned the word spite as i needed to hear that ... i have been spiteful maybe one other time in my life & i still feel ashamed of that all these years later ... yesterday i think i was so desperate after having been physically pushed and touch by this woman i was clutching at straws !! FF, thanks for being so supportive :D

I think you handled yourself well :) I think you stood your ground well which is also important emotion or not! And hey don't think for one second I'm perfect either... I've yelled at woman in the car park for accusing me of being a neglectful parent for being roughly 5 paces away from my car (DH was leaving the car and I was going towards it). I felt bad for yelling in front of my kids but the old biddy was being absolutely ridiculous and my temper and mother bear instincts got the better of me. The funny thing is I think it all relates back to our protective mechanisms. I bet if that woman had spoken to you like that you would have brushed it off completely, but the fact is she was rude to your CHILD and thats simply not on :)

And there is nothing wrong with having a warped mind... ;)

... So well said Rouge :clap: ... and how dare that lady speak to you like that & interfere :doh:

When i got pushed on the train NOT a person came to my aid ... funny how no one ' interfered ' there :rolleyes:

... i forgot to mention before still no response via email or phone call from V/line :rolleyes:

So sorry for the very late update ..........

About a week after my email to V/line i had a lovely & very friendly lady from Customer Service ring me & she was in no rush to get me off the phone but she was very interested in what had happened.

We covered ground with everything ... now i've just gotta remember it all to relay to you all ;)

For starters she said that my DD has a RIGHT to have a seat on the train ... BUT BUT BUT if the train carriage is appearing to fill up i * MUST * give up her seat to anyone that asks for it whether they be full or concession paying passenger.

Now this i was more than happy to DO & of course expected to DO, i mean after all my DD is getting her train ride journey for FREE being that she is 3 years of age.

The lady did say children of her age use to have to pay BUT only a few years ago it was introduced that children under i think she said 5 or 6 (i have to check that out) are entitled to travel for free on V/line trains. I asked her would it be best that i PAY for her next time so she can have a seat ... her instant response was NO, NO don't you pay a ticket for her SHE is entitled to travel for FREE.

Now on another matter in regards to the woman i had problems with on the train ride the customer service lady of course said it was uncalled for behaviour & agreed that she could have asked in a polite manner. The C/S lady said if i ever have a problem again with another passenger that there is a phone on (i think) each carriage ... i just say what the problem is and a conductor will come. As far as security cameras go she said there are NONE on the carriages only on the actual train stations. So she said if i ever feel in danger to not hesitate & find a phone on the train to contact the conducter whom in turn can call for security that is on Southern Cross Station.

So, there you go ... only thing is i forgot to ask her (i thought of it later) IF I HAVE TO give up DD's seat to a passenger who asks for it if there is clearly to be seen another seat available that they can sit on, like can i contest that (???) ... i might have to email about that question one day ;)

Apologies again for the late reply as i totally forgot about it until now :rolleyes:

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For starters she said that my DD has a RIGHT to have a seat on the train ... BUT BUT BUT if the train carriage is appearing to fill up i * MUST * give up her seat to anyone that asks for it whether they be full or concession paying passenger.

I asked her would it be best that i PAY for her next time so she can have a seat ... her instant response was NO, NO don't you pay a ticket for her SHE is entitled to travel for FREE.

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Maybe I am a bit thick but how can she have a RIGHT to a seat but MUST give it up if asked when the training is filling up?? Does that mean she only has the right when the train is half empty? that she has to GIVE UP her right to a seat if someone asks.... who decides when the train is full enough??

I'm sorry but I don't agree that your DD should have had to give up her seat especially in this case as there were other seats available. I understand why you feel that she should as you didn't pay for her seat but when you offered to pay the C/S lady clearly told you that she is entitled to travel for FREE... so does this mean she can travel for free she just isn't entitled to a SEAT if it is too full?!?!?!?!

Sorry for my rant and I meant to reply when you first created this thread and as a public transport user this just makes me mad grrrr.....

:yeahthat:

She is either entitled to a seat or not...can't have both. As far as I would be concerned, it is at THEIR insistence that babies travel free, therefore she has as much right to a seat as any one else.

Hey Kel ... yep, just quoting what she said ... my thoughts exactly ... mmm DD has a right to a seat BUT oh if someone asks to sit in her seat when the seats are filling up then its expired. Kel, you are probably thinking what i am at what point is her seat NO LONGER her rightful seat , when there are 10 available seats left other then her seat OR when there are one or none. The impression i was given was not so much if there was none but you would think it would be if there were none. I'd then be happy enough to give her seat to anyone that spoke to myself or my DP in a manner that was not rude.

Another point the C/S lady mentioned ' if ' i did buy her a ticket i would still have a debate on my hands with a passenger, showing her ticket (proving i have one) & it wouldn't be worth the stress of travelling waiting for it to happen.

Something i would also like to mention please keep in mind this was to be a happy family event, travelling for the 1st together into the city on the country train as a family & when the seat was wanted by this woman we still had a long 45mins journey to get to where we were wanting to go & that's just one long journey of hell if as it would have more than likely turned into an ugly debate/ heated argument. Also my DP is not one for confrontations & i know it would have stressed him completely & i had to remember this was his journey too.

Thanks Kel, for seeing how ridiculous a situation like this is. Maybe i should tell people she isn't a child but a small adult & say they are discriminating her & not them for gving up HER seat.

It's put DP off doing this again travelling with DD ... whereas i am fully prepared to expect to travel 1 hour 20min or so on the journey now each way with a 14kilo child breaking my lap :doh:

Alexis ... that's what i couldn't get this C/S lady to clear in meaning to me. It's like as if i'm meant to be polite in giving up her seat BUT at the same time it's expected of me OR ELSE ??? ... how does that make any sense. All i know is this lady was only repeating what she was trained to be telling !! I even asked her if i resisted what would i get ??? a fine ??? she didn't have an answer to it.

Putting all that aside my other concern is there being NO security cameras on a V/Line train travelling so far,how does anyone prove if something happened if there is no proof ??? Just disappointing. But at least this lady tried to help as best she knew how & was polite about it whereas before i've had rude staff to talk too.

THANKS for your imput gals !!! ... hey, just another day on the public transport system.

:hug: I remember reading that it was suppose to be a happy family trip and that lady really tainted it for you. I can understand why your DP didn't want a confrontation as I don't like confrontation either and you may have been faced with harrasment through the rest of the journey.

I think you handled the 'incident' with the lady really well and if nothing else even though it may not have seemed like it I hope she thinks about it next time.

I wonder if this is age discrimination??? she is entitled to travel for free because of her age but not entitled to a seat?? I wonder if this is someone we can contact to check!!!


I hope you do the trip again and that DD gets her seat!!

Thanks a million Kel for your kind words of encouragement cause i'm planning on taking DD on the V/line on Friday 16th Oct for the BB meetup of gals at the Baby Expo in Melb and i won't lie i DO have a worry i'm gonna knock out the next person that might be rude about it in wanting her seat ... maybe i should put makeup on her & some high heels, LOL ;) ... Anyway, fingers crossed for that day ... let YOU know how i go !!

(P.S - hope you come to the Gold Coast meetup next June :D)