Need some advice.

With Sam turning one (*sob* where has my baby gone?!) in a few days, I would dearly love to ditch the expensive formula and change him over to cows milk... but there we strike problems.

Sam's been on Nan HA since birth, switching from stage 1 to stage 2 at 6 months old. Turns out this was a stroke of luck for us as he showed signs of having a slight dairy intolerance once we started on solids. Cheese and yoghurt lead to vomiting, and a couple of occasions where we've needed to use a different formula (been caught short and bought a sachet rather than a whole tin) have led to us living in puke city for a while.

A week or so ago, I started redicing his bottles by one scoop (which is 30mL of water) and adding the extra in cows milk. We didn't have puke issues, but we did have a few days of unsettledness and crap day sleep - but that could also have been from teething.

I was starting to think he'd grown out of the dairy problem - but he was only having 30-40mL of cows milk in each of three bottles per day, so really wasn't getting a lot. On Monday I made up his breakfast cereal with cows milk - this would have been about 100mL of cows milk on his cereal... and we found ourselves back in puke city again. It appears that small amounts are ok, but definitely not in large quantities.

So I figure this leaves me with a few choices...

1. Continue to buy $23 tins of Nan HA 2 formula and hope that he grows out of the dairy intolerance quickly.

2. Try something like a lactose-free milk. Sure, it's expensive, but not as expensive as formula. It would also mean that all three of us in the house have a different type of milk each. :rolleyes: I also have no idea if this is the solution. I drink a lactose-free low fat milk, would it be ok to give him some of this to try - just to check if it makes him puke before I go buying a full-fat lactose free milk for him that may or may not work?

3. Switch to the Nan HA 3 toddler milk. Most places sell this one cheaper than the stage 1 and 2 formula (perhaps trying to drum up interest?), and I'd still find formula more convenient than cows milk when out... But it means buying into the whole toddler milk scam of the formula companies, and I don't know if it's a vanilla flavoured thing like some are (the other tins of toddler milk state vanilla flavoured, this one just claims to be a premium milk drink for toddlers). Cheaper than the stage 2 formula, but more expensive than the fancy milk. I am at least confident that he'll tolerate this, but the only real reason we have to switch is because it's slightly cheaper than the stage 2 formula he uses now.

I just don't know what to do. Are the toddler formulas really such a scam when you find yourself with a baby that can't tolerate cows milk?

BW

I think they toddler formula's have their place - I don't use them, as DD can tolerate cows milk but I would try her on the lactose free milk first before using formula but that's just a preference. I got sick of buying two bottles of milk so now we all just use the full-cream - I worked out that the quantity of milk I drink each day (occasional latte, a little bit in cereal or a little bit in a hot drink) made about 35calories difference between skim and fullcream for me :lol: so we all just use the full cream now. If you're not a big milk drinker you might find the same thing so if you do put Sam on lactose free full-cream won't have to buy 3 different types.

Having said that, my nephew was a terrible eater - they used the stage 3 formula because it does have vitamin supplements and so has a place as opposed to using milk plus vitamins KWIM. The choice is yours - obviously you're going to steer clear of the flavoured junk if you do choose formula but don't feel bad about it. Whatever works for you and bub is a good choice.

I used low fat milk with DS on the odd occasion, and I think it is ok. It is not recommended for full time drinking, but for a trial, I cant see how it will hurt. I would not be the fat that is causing the pukes... So I think go for it. Good work on switching Sam over now. At 18m I nearly have CJ there... it is so much easier. Good luck.

I used toddler stuff for awhile with DD1 as her eating wasn't the best so made me feel better giving something like that to her. If you don't want to go down that path then try that lactose free stuff and see how he goes.
You should just do whatever makes you feel happy with.

I'd try him out on your skim milk, I don't see how it can hurt.

I didn't even know that they aren't supposed to have skim - does any one know the reason why? My DS has only ever had low fat.

There is always UHT cows milk, the girls Paed says that the heating makes it more easily digested by the kiddies and it seemed to stop my girls having tummy aches when they were drinking fresh cows milk.

Is Sam eating a full and varried diet? Is he ok with cheese and yoghurt now? If he is eating well I wouldn't bother with a toddler formula. My DD1 had a milk/soy intolerance due to proteins not lactose and she was on rice milk until 2yo. She could tolerate hard cheese and small amounts of yoghurt and even the odd drink of milk.

After the age of one they really don't need a lot of dairy. If Manta drops in she can tell you the RDI. Maybe give rice milk a go, that way you'll be avoid overloading him with too much milk.

I haven't tried yoghurt again recently - and he's refused to eat cheese the last few times I've offered it. The only dairy he consumes is in his bottles. The problem is that I don't know which particular part of the dairy he is reacting to - so the lactose free stuff is just a guess at whether it will work.

All I do know for sure is that regular formula is an issue, but the HA formula with partially hydrolised proteins is ok for him. I have to admit that I'm leaning more towards the toddler formula for him - IF it's not a flavoured thing. If it's flavoured he can stay on stage two.

BW

Have you considered not giving him milk at all? There is no need for him to have milk of any sort once he's 12 months, as long as he's getting the nutrients he needs from his diet. A dietician who specialises in allergy and intolerance (and there are many of them!) could assist you with a diet plan to make sure he's getting all he needs.

Personally, if it was me, I'd prefer this option to toddler milk. Toddler milk does not have all the nutrients he needs, and often it fills them up enough that they don't enough other foods.

If you are interested in this approach, you can search for dieticians by specialty on the Australian Dietician's Association website.

MR - that doesn't sound right at all.

for one - why is there so much emphasis on kids getting three serves of dairy a day if it's not necessary. whether it's delivered via a bottle or in a cup, the question still remains - how does BW ensure that Sam is getting the nutrients he needs? i'm pretty sure there wouldn't be the push for having dairy if it wasn't important for the overall health of children (and adults for that matter!). Sam is not quite one year old - up until now, as much as he's been having solids, the mantra of "food is fun until they're one" has still applied - well, i'm guessing - i'm not his mum! but, is it really appropriate to now expect a toddler to cease drinking milk and get all their nutrition from food? is it only ok for BF babies to get their nutrition from milk, but FF babies are expected to get it all from food? if Sam has a lactose intolerance or another protein intolerance, how is he to get the calcium etc that dairy carries

i am in no way trying to start a BF/FF debate - i just want to know HOW it differs. How is it that the WHO recommends babies continue to have BM until at least two years, and yet it's ok for FF to cease all milk at age one? if you can explain, i'd really appreciate it.

back on the topic of what to do for Sam - BW, i know you've had issues with yogurt coming straight back up in the past, and given it sounds like Sam is not keen on cheese, i agree with the other ladies in trying him on your milk first. if he doesn't react, it would be worth buying the full cream version. if he does, it would suggest that lactose isn't the problem, and it's perhaps another protein in the milk causing him issues.

is it possible to get a smaller bottle of the full fat lactose free stuff to try? is normal powdered milk an option? (i know mum told me that i was on powdered milk for a looooong time cos i reacted to full cream milk badly - my dad still does!)

if sam is happy to eat his three meals and snacks, and still wants milk, i wouldn't deny him any. i know of a lot of children that refuse to drink milk at a young age as they want to be drinking juice or cordial - i personally would prefer to have my kidlets drink milk if possible.

hope you can come to a result that works for you all. i know the cost of formula can be almost prohibitively expensive - if you can find something that reduces that expense and agrees with Sam's stomach, it would be a great relief both emotionally, physically and financially...

lots of babies who are weaned at 12 months(ff or bf) are ok to not have milk or dairy. calcium can be sourced from LOTS of other foods and is infact better absorbed then dairy products.

the WHO rec are that for optimum health babies should be breastfed for 2 years when not bf they are ff because this is for nutrition not for (optimum) health it can be stopped at 12 months or continued for as long as parents want(like BFing)

Full cream is a must it is CRUCIAL for the brain do not skimp on this.

a tip for yoghurt is serve him yoghurt that is very close to the useby date as the enzymes in it 'eat' the lactose in it so the older it is the less lactose it has.

also maybe try a baby probiotic for a little while to improve his gut health.

when he first had cheese and yoghurt was there lots of dairy in his diet? as dairy overload in babies is often the same as dairy intolerance

Without jumping to conclusions or playing GP, it sounds like Sam could have a mild form of Cow's Milk Protein Intolerance as opposed to lactose intolerance (which is incredibly rare). Our Monster has CMPI and couldn't even cope with Nan HA. He is now on an elemental formula. So you have my sympathies - their tummies get very unhappy :(

If you are intent on eventually getting Sam onto cows milk (which we are) then it is probably worthwhile establishing whether or not he is intolerant. This is done by taking a faecal sample and dropping it off at a pathology centre. The testing, which does take a couple of weeks, is bulk-billed. From there you will be able to work out a game plan.

Until you know where you are at with the whole thing, I would hang tight on giving him any dairy. The faecal test they do actually measures the amount of blood in the stool. If there is blood present then, depending on the amount, they establish just how intolerant bubs is. So basically, if they are intolerant, their gut gets so irritated that it bleeds, which is why I am suggesting you get it checked out just to be sure. In the event of an intolerance, reintroduction of dairy has to be closely monitored and often guidance from a paediatric dietician is necessary. On a positive note, if he can tolerate Nan HA then the chances are that, if he is intolerant, it is very mild.

I hope this doesn't sound too prescriptive - that is certainly not my intention. I just try and draw peoples' attention to this when I can as it is a horribly under-diagnosed infant ailment often just fobbed off as reflux, colic or lactose intolerance.

I hope this helps and I really hope that your Sam is just sensitive to milk and not intolerant. Feel free to PM me if you want more info on the topic. Best of luck x

Bg - cow milk isn't crucial for human development. In fact dairy isn't terrific for humans all around. Many cultures do not drink cow's milk and it certainly doesn't bother them.

There are heaps of other ways to get the essentials into a child, which is why Manta Ray pointed BW in the direction of a dietitian. Heaps of people don't drink milk at all cos it makes them feel crap.

BW - my DD was lactose intolerant when she was younger (thankfully she has outgrown it not). We gave her a lactose free milk found in the UHT section. The name escapes me right now (but I'm sure it will come to me around 2am ;))... she was fine on that milk. She was also fine on yoghurt and hard cheeses. My MCHN explained that it is the way that those products are made in comparsion to milk and how the lactose is processed. We are still cautious with DD and milk and only give her skim milk which she doesn't react to. At creche she gets 1 cup of full cream milk a day. In total she would probably have about 3 cups of milk in a 24hr period.

HTH

MG

I have to say that Sam's diet isn't the greatest. We really struggle to get him to eat some foods - mainly fruit. He was incredibly resistant to meat for a very long time, but has come around to chicken in recent times, but that's as far as we get.

I'm glad BG asked - the whole thing about BF being great for as long as possible but FF is not has had me baffled, and I'm still not sure I can fully get my head around it.

As it is now, Sam eats no dairy. He never really has because the slightest amount of yoghurt or cheese has resulted in vomiting which is pretty unpleasant. Sam refuses to even try cheese now.

The fact that Sam's not ok with cheese and yoghurt is leading me to think that it's not the lactose that's the problem. Sambo, from the little I know about CMPI, it should have a pretty drastic and dramatic effect on bowel motions... We've never seen anything like that with Sam (he's actually very easily constipated). He would chuck a lot when he was really young but it wasn't reflux. Very different to the really stinky spews that dairy triggers now so I'm really not sure.

I honestly don't think Sam's ready to give up bottles. I don't think I am for that matter, either. It's our cuddle and snuggle quiet time before he goes down to sleep for both day naps and at night... Not something I'm keen to lose in a hurry.

I need to take him to the GP soon - I'll be sure to discuss this then. I kind of wish his next paed appointment was a little closer, but that's not until late January (curse these doctors and their holidays! :lol:).

BW

BW - Do you have a good MCHN around? Maybe ask their opinion. Go with what you are comfortable with, and trust your instincts hun

DS avoided dairy too - all on his own when he was very little, so I sort of followed his lead.

It is hard when you want to make sure he is getting what he needs. Have you got a good MCHN? Can she help you on the nutritional side?

DS has a splash of watered down milk on his weetbix but much more than that and the poor fella is on the toilet. I give him penta vite, cos he is quite fussy. Have you tried that?

My local council recently implemented a program for parents of fussy eaters - just tips, help and recipes to try. Good stuff.

xoxox

I don't think much of my MCHN. She's never really been able to answer my questions and has generally left me feeling more confused.

When Sam was 9 months old I was asking her about what to do to care for the new teeth he'd just popped through - she talked about toothpaste and not needing to boil his water any more because she thought he was 18 months old. I know he's big, but he's not THAT big. I find it hard to trust anything she tells me now.

BW

pfft - bugger. I had a really good one - they are worth their weight in gold and a lot rarer than they should be.

Ok, I'll try and clarify a bit. Bfing is recommended for a minimum of 2 years mostly because of the things in breastmilk that can't be sourced elsewhere - immunity factors, stem cells, etc etc, not because of the calcium content. The nutrients in bm are all a baby needs for the first 6 months - at some time around the 6 month mark, babies start to require more nutrients than they get from bm, which is why the recommendation from 6 months is to continue bfing as well as supplement with solids.

When a baby is weaned from the breast, or a ff baby reaches around 12 months, they don't need the bm/formula to be replaced by cows' milk, and as has been mentioned already, in many cultures it isn't - Asia is a primary example of this. In Australia we generally do it because it's what we know, and as a result most of our diets are based on the fact that we get the bulk of our calcium requirements from dairy. But we don't need to get any of our calcium requirements from dairy, as long as we are getting it from the rest of the diet, which is most certainly possible. There are many peopIe who do not eat dairy, including vegans. I suggested a dietician to assist, because this is the best way to ensure that he is getting enough. You can also check out this site which is a handy guide to the calcium content of non-dairy foods: Vegetarian Network Victoria - Complete Nutrient Summary

BW, you might not be comfortable to take the non-dairy path, and that's fine. I'm just letting you know that the option is there. At 12 months many kids are not eating a big variety of foods, so while I know it is stressful (my DS1 was the worst eater at that age), it is not uncommon, and kids do seem to survive it. I did find a paediatric dietician was a huge help when his eating was still really bad at about 15 or 16 months. Vitamin drops can help fussy eaters - not just by providing nutrients but they can also stimulate appetite. This was one thing that worked for us. Toddler milks unfortunately tend to have the opposite effect, and reduce the appetite so they are not such a good option for trying to ensure that the baby is getting enough nutrients until they are eating better.

I hope this has made my previous post a little clearer.

Have just been googling non-dairy sources of calcium (the things you do when heat and redback spider colonies stop you from sleeping!) and I have to say that there really isn't a lot of stuff on the list that Sam eats yet. I can work on it - but we won't be stopping the bottles in a hurry. I've only very recently got him to drop from 4 to 3 bottles each day. While he does enjoy his food and gets very grumpy if he doesn't get enough - he's also much the same with his bottles.

BW

BW hun, I have only skimmed this thread. This is a tricky stage you're at, I sympathise :hug:.

True Lactose intolerance is quite rare, it is more likely that Sam has some sort of Cows Milk Protein Intolerance. In fact, given that he reacts to cheese and yoghurt, but not his formula, I'd say it's more than likely.

Your best best to sort this out is to seek the opinion of an experienced Dietician or Naturopath, who specialises in this area. I could try to help you find someone in Sydney if you are interested.

In the meantime, I would persist with the Nan, but you can always drop the amount he has. MR has written some excellent stuff for you about the necessity (or lack of) dairy in our diets, and what you can replace it with. Given that you are concerned about Sam's diet, a dietician might be a really helpful way for you to go. And there are always Calcium/Magnesium supplements available! But best to start down that road under an experienced advisor.

Having BTDT, I know how hard it is, and how hard it gets if you persist with the dairy......not worth it. Because I was so lost for somewhere to go, I waited too long to get DS diagnosed, and as a result, 2008 was an unhappy year for us. Life is definitely on the up now we know what the deal is :). And hey, it might not turn out to be that at all for Sam! But best to know for sure what you're dealing with ;).

ETA Something else you may be interested in......exposing a person who has intolerances to the very things they are intolerant to, over a period of time, will weaken their immune system. The body is so busy fighting these proteins it doesn't cope with, it doesn't have the strength it should to fight regular bugs etc. As an example, over 6 months in 2008 DS had moderate/severe croup SIX times :(. It was ridiculous, and awful. I was most concerned about this winter. But having changed his diet, he only had one moderate bout, which was a vast improvement (I was assured this would happen after removing the offending proteins from his diet). Knowing your history, I thought that was something you might want to note :hug:

Thanks, Janie. Interesting to note that about the immune system. It's got me wondering whether it's something like that which triggered mine to go haywire and start attacking me. Sam's been quite healthy so far (just one bout of bronchiolitis, everything else I can trace back to teething), so I'm not overly concerned that we're exposing him to stuff that bothers him. But the more I hear, the more I'm thinking that I won't mess with what's working just yet.

BW

BW there is certainly no rush to stop giving a 12 month old formula especially if they are not good eaters. My recommendation would be to offer food first and keep offering new foods. Then as Sam starts eating more, slowly reduce his formula intake. You need not cut out a full bottle, just reduce the quanity. Alternativley you could start to give him his formula in a sippy cup. You'll find he drinks a lot less then a bottle. Certainly keep the bottles going for sleep time comfort and special cuddles but offer the sippy cup at other times. Don't stress if he doesn't finish these either.

I think as long as you are aware that you want Sam to eat food instead of rely on bottles then you'll be fine.

Happy Birthday little man!!!:happybirthday:

HTH

I haven't been online for a few days so sorry if this thread is old now - someone asked why not skim milk? It's because skim milk (other than not having enough calories and fat for small kids) has concentrated levels of protein and sodium that puts too much strain on under 2's kidneys. But once off isn't going to hurt his kidneys if it's just a trial of the milk KWIM.

I wouldn't worry if he's not dropping his bottles fast- I have just increased DD's bottles from 3 to 4 because she was not eating more, started waking at night again and hadn't put on weight for 2 months. If we're truly going to follow our instincts or baby-led ideals - then this includes bottles for non-breastfeeding bubs. All bubs develop at their own pace after all, we can't force them to eat more? I wouldn't force the issue if DD was still breastfeeding - don't really see the difference. You'd expect a gradual transition.

It's true that you can source enough calcium from other sources other than dairy, as it is you can source enough b vitamins, zinc, iron from non-meat sources - the reason they are highly emphasized by nutritionists is because they are a concentrated, good source of those essential vitamins and make it easy to get our daily requirements. Vegans & vegetarians have to watch their diets very carefully to ensure they are getting enough nutrients (I am not having a go at them, I was one for 5 years so did it) if you don't buy into the dairy is evil hype - and you establish he's not allergic - then don't feel badly about giving him cows milk or cows milk formula if he thrives on it. Hope evreything works out for you :D