I'm at a complete loss

As my title says I am at a complete loss as what to do with my DS who is a few days off 7 months. He is the most horrible sleeper. He will only sleep for 40 minutes intervals day and night unless he is sleeping with me. I just can't do this as I have a toddler and we all know what a 2 year old could get up to when left alone and I'm just a walking zombie. He has absolutely no routine to speak of and will only settle in my arms after a rediculous length of time becaue if DD makes a sound/noise/speaks his eyes spring open and he tries to see what she is doing so I'm back to square one so this isn't working either. Same as I can't go into a quiet room because this leaves DD unsupervised.
I have tried to get help from our local sleep school, DH, family and friends and everyone has told me that it is my fault and I have to fix it. The lady at the sleep school told me it is all my fault, I've made him this way, spoilt him, recked their method of controlled comforting by going in too often and staying too long so even that probably won't work now so I'm just going to have to sort it out and it's because I'm an anxious mother. So basically everyone's idea of help is to put me down and tell me it's my fault - thanks for the help :cry:. I've finally gotten over the lady from sleep school and realised that I may not be perfect but I am a good mum and doing the best I can for my kids.
So basically I need some help from an amazing community who I know aren't just going to blame me. He is breastfed (roughly anywhere from 2 to 4 hourly) and is eating solids wonderfully three times a day. I've thought about wonder weeks, teething, developmental stage but he has been like this birth. Oh the other helpful bit of advice I've gotten is "stiff - just deal with it"
What are my options for getting him to settle himself and what routine is your 7 month old in? I'm thinking of two good sleeps a day. I think he needs a routine so he knows what is coming IYKWIM. He does have a night time routine which is exactly the same as DD and it has been the same since he was born so that is set.
I'm so sorry that this is so jumbled but I am completely loss. My poor DD is just being left to her devices so much because I just don't have a free minute to spend with her. So what is your 7 month olds routine and any settling help would be fantastic.

Thanks so much,
Dan.

:hug: Oh hun I am so sorry peope are making you feel like that...your a fantastic mother and in no way have spoilt him, he lucky to have a mum who hugs him etc
I dont have any advice but hopefully someone will! Just wanted to give you :hug: Your doing a great job, and I hope you find a solution very soon xx

WTF is wrong with those people?!

Every now and then DS has settled into some sort of routine, and then it disappears a week or so later. It's just never happend for us. I suppose it's all my fault and I'm just doing everything wrong. Or maybe this is just the way my DS is. I don't have the worry of an older sibling to worry about though, so I just do what he needs me to do.

At 7 months things were really bad. Day sleeps - honestly, I just gave up trying. It actually helped (strange though that may seem). If he didn't want to sleep, he didn't. I just couldn't spend another hour and a half getting him to sleep, when I knew he was going to be awake 30 minutes later. Backing off really helped.

:hug:

awwww hun :hug:
id start by getting him checked over by a dr first to make sure there are no issues such as ear issues ( we just did this and found out DD had fluid behind her ear drums) then maybe see an osteo to make sure he isnt out a whack etc.. thats making him uncomfy.

its not your fault either chicken, far from it :hug:

this might not make yoou feel any better but sleep here went to pot around the 7.5 month mark :hug:
is he far off crawling??

Gee sounds like you have had a really rough time - so much for help like that! I am not going to be much better but I really think that sleep is such an individual thing - the babies are all different! I think the first point is to stop beating yourself up. Seriously - you know how hard you are working on this and how difficult it is. Sleep is NOT an indication of your parenting skills or choices.
Sounds like you DS wants to be in on the action! Not sure if you can enlist some help to take DD for a few hours to get you settled into a sleep pattern for a bit. Or are there some other sleep schools, advice you can get? From the little I know there are vastly different approaches and you need to get one that resonates for you.
It is really hard when you are stressed, sleep deprived and being criticised. Will your DS sleep in the pram? We tried walking to the park for a bit so DD1 could run around madly and then #2 could sleep for a bit. Sometimes it worked but I found sitting at home listening to DD1 make noise made me really anxious and I got quite mad at her.
DD2 ended up only having one nap from ~ 10months as she just would not do anymore.
Sorry I haven't been more helpful - but try not to stress about it (easy said I know). xxxxxx

I don't have any advice but couldn't read and leave without saying dont listen to the people putting you down. You are doing a great job and are a fantastic mum. :hug: Hopefully some other wonderful ladies will stop by to offer you more support.

:hug: my DS was/is a terrible sleeper too :hug:

I know this isn't practical help but the fact is some babies don't sleep as much as others and no amount of 'spoiling' or controlled crying is going to change that.

Some practical things... through the day - do you have a baby carrier? will DS sleep while you are carrying him? Does your DD have a nap or quite time? could you put on a DVD for some quite time for your DD and that might give you a chance to get DS to sleep for a nap?
at night - is co-sleeping an option? or you sleeping with DS in another bed?

Like Marcellus I found it really demoralising trying to get DS to sleep for and hour and half just to have him wake up 30 mins and the more I relaxed about the whole thing the better I coped.

:hug: I hope this helps.

We had a tough time of it from 6 months on too. Those people are awful for saying those things to you. A child that age cannot be spoilt from too much love! Geez. It's just a suggestion, but does he take a dummy? Like others have suggested, maybe don't stress so much about getting him to sleep. If he doesn't want to sleep, just let him be. I've had to do that with my DD2 because she would seriously scream so loud that my eardrums hurt! She only has one sleep a day now at 10 months mid morning, with a 10-15 min catnap in the arvo about 2ish. I've just given up trying to get more out of her. I found that if I kept her up longer rather than trying to get her to sleep as soon as I saw the tired signs (after six months of age) she started to have a longer sleep mid morning. Afternoon was never great. She has a dummy for sleep though which I find is a great comforter. I did use my bb's as comforters when I was breastfeeding.....but some people say that can be a "bad" influence on the sleeping pattern too......Sending you a big hug.....sleeping does get REALLY bad around this age for most bubs because most of them start teething and a lot of them start to crawl. This age is a time of huge development so that wouldn't be helping with his sleeping either xx

Aw, talk about beating someone when they're down. :hug: I don't think even in hindsight any of us know what would definately have worked or not, it's all a matter of trial and error so what's the point in saying it's your fault, silly people, how do they know it wouldn't be the same if you'd done it 'their way'.

I concur that some babies might just prefer shorter sleeps - but if you are interested in trying a routine and aren't totally opposed to a bit of initial crying (only say that because this isn't in the gentle parenting section so am not sure whether I will offend by suggesting) - I found the advice and routines in a book I was given at my baby shower really helpful and the results worked a dream for us so am not sorry we did it. If you are interested I can PM you the title but don't want to put it up on the boards in case there's backlash which might detract from your original post.

oh my gosh! Tell those people if they don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all! It is NOT youre fault! You're clearly a fantasic mother who cares dearly for her children.

I honestly can not believe the lady at the sleep school would say such horrible things.. she is working at a place where women are already vulnerable, to go and say THAT?? I'd put in a complaint.

I don't have much advice i'm sorry, but my DD was very similar, in the end i gave up and just co-slept. She would go to her bed when she finally collapsed at around 11:30pm, she'd wake up about an hour later (maybe two on a good night). and i'd put her in bed with us on the boob. She'd then sleep on/off during the night, waking to have a little suck then to doze back off again. And FWIW, she's now a pretty good sleeper! Sleeps in her big bed, until 7am when she wakes. Yes we still have a bad night, about once a week - but our 'bad' night now simply involves me going to her room and sitting with her till she dozes off again.

Biiiiiig huge hug to you :hug:
I hope you feel better, don't listen to the crap other people say - tell them to butt out.
xx

Oh hun that's horrible of people to say!!
I found that DS was worse than DD with sleeping, so not sure if gender has any link?

My now 8 month old DD was really bad with her sleeping from 4 months and it was doing my head in. I started putting her to bed every 90 minutes for at least 90 minutes. It didn't take long and she fell straight into her sleeping routine. I'm not a CIO mum at all, so would leave her if she was having a bit of a grizzle but full on crying meant I went straight in. She now goes to bed every 2 hours during the day.
At night, we started putting her to bed at 7.30pm every night. We would then give her a dream feed around 11 in the hopes she would make it through at least a few hours... now if she has her dream feed she'll sleep through until 8.30am when her brother wakes up. We're very lucky.

DS at 8 months was still waking 5+ times a night. It was horrid. I kept him in his cot in our room until he was 12 months old and only when I moved him into his own room at that stage did he finally work out how to sleep.

GBH I hope you can find soemthing that will help.

:hug: dan

i don't know if i have anything practical to offer but i wanted to let you know that you're not alone. DS hasn't been a great sleeper since he was born & it's like every week has been a wonder week!

we've only (like in the last couple of weeks) started getting sleeps longer than 40 minutes & that's only because i wait in the room when he's about to come out of a sleep cycle & then i pat him through. hell, sometimes i even feed him through it just to get a decent sleep. now we're getting 1.5-2hours but still with that help. i think the patting etc has helped but then again it hasn't worked in the past so i think he was ready to sleep a bit longer anyway?? i also feed him to sleep (baaaaad mummy :lol:) & my feeds before naps are in a different room from normal feeds. i also follow a kind of routine of feed, play, solids, play, sleep for morning & afternoon naps. sorry - i know you're looking for self settling but i just can't get that to work here without crying.

nights are crazy so no help at all unfortunately. we have a decent bedtime routine but he's up 6-7 times a night :shakehead: i'm co-sleeping & DP has been sent off to the spare bed & it really isn't ideal.

sorry chick - not much help, i know. i don't know how you manage with a toddler as well & i reckon you're doing a fab job - remember how they sleep is not indicative of how good a mum you are!

Well my love, I shall join you in the bad mothers club I think - NOT!!!
OMG what is wrong with some people?!?!? So much for the sisterhood!
FWIW Nate's been crap since the start too (as was Darcy but not quite as crap lol), and around the 7th month he started to get himself together.

I think 2 sleeps is an excellent plan. I actually wrote myself out a routine. I watched him for a couple of days ad wrote down what he seemed to do. THat helped me keep it consistent...cos I'm not really a routine kinda girl. Though saying that a routine has helped the three of us.

I still feed to sleep for his arvo nap. And I nurse him for his morning one if he chooses to have it.
DD like to be patted at that age, so I would rock for a bit, then lay her down and keep one arm firmly on her and then pat her bum. Then we stopped doing the arm thing and just did the patting.
DS does not do patting, so I'm still working out what works for him. He is the same as your little guy in that he has a cyclonic sister who makes way too much noise.

Please don't allow anyone to make you feel bad about what you are doing as a parent.

The sleep school lady is a B****

You replied in my thread about my DS's crappy sleeping so it is really the blind leading the blind here but...

My DS woke after every single sleep cycle from 5 months until about 8 months. So like you I was awake every 45 minutes every night and for day sleeps I had to go in and resettle him a couple of times. I was so frustrated and out of ideas so I ordered the No Cry Sleep Solution - the day it arrived I was too tired to read it and put it aside and that very night his sleeping improved lol. Not a lot though, he was still waking 6+ times at night, but at least he was doing 1.5-2 hour blocks. This was also a couple of days before he started crawling. He would ONLY feed to sleep and it was so exhausting and I didn't have a toddler to look after as well.

It sounds like your DS has no ability to self settle at the end of a sleep cycle. From what I have read, night follows day - that is if you can get him to sleep for more than one cycle during the day then your nights should slowly improve too.
I would suggest at least once every day to put them in the pram and head to the park or put him in a sling, get someone to take your DD and sit by him while he sleeps ready to pat/shoosh him back to sleep as soon as he starts stirring. Anything to teach him to resettle after the first sleep cycle.
Also as the others have suggested, don't spend ages trying to get him to sleep. If he hasn't nodded off after say 10 minutes of trying just get him up and try again later. It isn't good for your mental health to spend forever getting them to sleep only to have them up almost straight away. Cutting down to 2 naps sounds like a really good idea.
Do you wrap him? I have found that to be a good sleep cue for DD and I can't put her into the cot unless she is firmly wrapped.

I probably haven't suggested anything you haven't already thought of, but I do really sympathise with what you are going though. It is hard.

Liviam - firstly :hug: - you are doing a fantastic job and you CANNOT spoil a child with love and attention, I don't care what anyone says - sure they can be spoilt with 'stuff' but there is no such thing as too much love and attention

Now that I am off my high horse - some practical advice, apologies if you've tried this already. I found that around this age my DS was very hard to settle as he was interested in EVERYTHING and didn't wan't to miss a thing, so I went from settling him in the living area to moving our rocking chair into his bedroom and settling him there for a sleep with the door closed. However I dont have a DD to consider, but is she old enough to understand to sit and watch a DVD while you put her little brother to bed perhaps? Anyhoo, I found that settling DS in the quiet of his room worked a treat! Also, around this age they tend to get more active (sitting up, attempting to move about, crawling etc) so all of a sudden my DS went from 45 minute sleep cycles to 2 hour naps - it was nothing I did, I think he was just using more energy, so perhaps maximise any opportunities for your DS to 'tire' himself out - maybe that will help with the sleep

Every baby is different so these idea's might not suit you at all, but thought I'd put them out there just in case :)

Our routine around 7 months was a bit like this...
6-630am wake up and milk, 730ish breakfast, Morning nap about 830ish, Milk at 1030ish, Lunch at 12, Afternoon Nap about 1ish, Milk at 3ish, Dinner at 430-5pm, Bath straight after then bed at 6-630ish. I think my DS was still having one overnight feed too (this stopped about 8 month-ish). In between these times I would try to keep DS busy with playtime or go out and about

Hope that helps

Thank you all so very very much for your support. It is just such a relief to hear that it isn't my fault (I know it isn't but sometimes it is nice to hear it, you know). I know that I'm not a bad mum and that I am doing the best I can. Just when everyone around you keeps telling you it's your fault those thoughts do start to creep in even when you know you shouldn't let them.
I'm going to keep an eye on what DS does tomorrow and try to design a routine that suits him and then do settling in bed with me in his room with him. Poor DD is going to have a DVD day tomorrow but hopefully I can get her brother sorted so I can spend some time with her. I figured I would watch him tomorrow as wednesday DD is in childcare so I can spend the full day working with Will. My poor little munchkin must be so exhausted with such little sleep. I'm also secretly hoping that when he gets on the move, crawling, he will settle a bit better. He is wiggling around the floor and is getting so frustrated that he can't. DH has decided that DS can't co-sleep with us anymore as DD gets jealous so we end up with four of us in the bed and he can't sleep. I understand but now it is just another hurdle for me to overcome, AAAARRRGGHHH!!! It is just snow balling and getting out of control. Sorry to dump it on you gorgeous ladies but OMG!!! AAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!

Huge hugs Dan. It sounds so tough! What a nasty piece of work that sleep school person was.

You have been given heaps of great advice so I won't reiterate any of it, but instead offer another perspective.

Be kind to yourself. Find the easiest solution that takes the least effort. That may be cosleeping and wearing him in a sling or using the pram more.

Spending time trying to 'fix' his sleeping is going to take a lot of effort, and in only a few short months he'll be that bit older and closer to sleep maturity on his own. As Marcellus said...I found backing off was the best remedy.

You are a fabulous mummy and your ds loves you so much... He just wants to be with you!

Can you wrangle some help?

Eta: snap Dan. Oh no there goes the cosleeping idea. If ds is about to crawl you may have to wait out this phase. Dd was shocking when about to crawl/ walk. Gl!!!!

Gl

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Be kind to yourself. Find the easiest solution that takes the least effort.

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Perfectly said Anna!

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WTF is wrong with those people?!

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:yeahthat:
OMG :o - you go for support and get told this??!!! What load! I am still a new mummy but I can tell you this, it isn't your fault. It is what it is..... :hug: Don't all babes go through times like this? Mine does/is LOL. I hope your little one gives you some rest soon. :hug::hug::hug:
Rach xx

My DS stopped sleeping very well during the day at around 4-5 months. He couldn't resettle after a sleep cycle, so I was only getting 3 40-minute naps out of him. It was doing my head in too!

What worked for me was going back to wrapping him (angel wrap) for his day sleeps. We restarted that at about 6 months and he went to 2 hr naps! To start with I had to do controlled comforting (patting him to sleep while he lay in his cot, on his side) but pretty soon we didn't even need that.

Anyway, all babies are different, as I'm sure you know. I hope you find out what works for your DS!

Thank you so much ladies :grouphug: I actually got a three hour block of sleep last night so i'm feeling less exhausted and ready to tackle another day with a better perspective thanks to you all. Wish me luck!!!

hi, sorry this is a few days late....how have the last few days been for you?

The first thing that came to mind was to get him checked out by a paed chiro if possible as another poster mentioned, it might be just something is a little bit out of alignment.

In regards to 40 minute sleep cycles and being woken up by noise, etc, have you tried a cd player in his room, I have used Music for Dreaming from day one for DS.

Two sleeps sounds good. Depending on what time he wakes up from overnight I would probably give him 1.5 - 2hours from that and then an after lunch sleep and then activity till your night time routine starts.

I agree, walking to a park - at his nap time so he falls asleep then by the time you get there DD can have lots of fun at the park with you while DS continues to nap.

I remember and it still happens, DD has so much less of my attention now that DS is here, I used to get so cranky when I was trying to put DS down for a nap and she would be making loads of noise. It is hard. I am only just finding things easier now and DS is over one :redface:

Let us know how you go. Ignore any negative comments you get from people, they are not the ones in your situation, if they start up, tell them to make you dinner/do the cleaning to help you out or not say anything at all. I have had conflict with my DH on how I parent - co-sleep, rock them off to sleep, but I know in my heart that I am doing the right thing by my kids and won't regret it.

Good luck.
Laurin x

Oh, Dan. What a horrible bunch of 'advice'. Stuff the lot of them! AFAIAC, there is no such this as controlled crying. There is just happy and sad. I sleep and feel better when I go to sleep happy. I can't imagine a baby being any different, so you are certainly not a bad mummy for wanting that for your son.

Now, Little Phe is exactly the same. Seriously. Its quarter past 11, and she is still fighting madly. I am barely allowed to put her down. Some times its not food, its not nappy, its not anything except for that fact that if its not mummy, its not good enough. Sometimes the pressure gets at me too.

With the co-sleeping. Do you have enough room in your room for a cot or toddler bed? We sidecared Harrys cot to our bed so he is still right next to daddy but not taking up any of the room on the bed. He loves it and we love it. Causes DH a few dramas getting up over night as only the very end of his side of the bed is open, but he is more than happy to do it for his son so that his baby can continue to co-sleep.

And here is the big one. Your DH needs to either support you in the decisions you make, or help you with the duties on any direction he wants to take your workload. Phoebe started becoming less clingy and could be left on her own for longer when OTHER people (such as DH) wentand picked her up when she cried rather than looked at me like I was her only parent. She goes to sleep faster in his arms then she ever does for me. As I carefully informed my husband a few weeks ago - his job as her father did NOT end with the orgasm.

I'm just coming out of a similar issue with my DS (only have one so far so can't comment on ideas to entertain/occupy your DD). I found that I went back to wrapping DS in a cot sheet for all his sleeps and we've started to get back to our "normal" sleep pattern with him, he's now starting to get back to 1- 3 hour sleeps (x2 minimum) during the day (used to be 20-45 min sleeps and only about 3 a day) and back to at least one sleep of about 5 hours (or more) at night. And I (& DH) gave up fighting DS when, although showing tired signs, he would fight the sleep thing for more than 10 min, left him go again at his toys and then try when the tired signs showed again (usually within an hour)

Sorry no real advice that has not been said, just wanted to say YOU ARE DOING A FANTASTIC JOB!!!
No one can be your DS's Mum better than you, no one knows what he needs more than YOU!
:hug: Hope things get better :hug:

Aw hun, don't have time to reply now, but subscribing to remind me to come back later! Know this - things WILL get better. I have no idea when, but they will. My DS was exactly the same (minus the 2 year old sister :lol:) and although not perfect, he is a MUCH better sleeper now.

Just briefly, are there any food intolerances/allergies in your family? I ask only because babies with this often wake frequently etc. For us, removing the offending foods made an enormous difference to DS's sleep. He is also sensitive to salicylates, and sleeps TERRIBLY after having foods that are very high in them. Same with some food colours and preservatives etc, he is just so wakeful (and grumpy) if he consumes them.

BBL......

Thank so you all so much for you support and help. We still haven't made any improvements in getting DS to settle/sleep for his day sleeps at all but I did have a really big honest chat with DH and told him how devestated I am that no-one is supporting me (even if they do think it's my fault) and the guilt spiral I've been on. He hadn't realised but now is much more understanding and so far (the last few nights) he has been helping me with the nights so I am getting some sleep, even giving DS a bottle of EBM so I can get a block. I'm feeling much clearer in my thoughts after getting some sleep finally. DS is also co-sleeping with us if I can't get him to settle after a few trys so in a way I guess we have made some progress. Plus we are still trying to work out some kind of routine and trying to get Will settled into that as well. Small little steps and one step forward two steps back BUT WE WILL GET THERE!!!
Thanks so much you gorgeous ladies!! I would be completely and utterly lost without you all here for me!!

Just wanted to give you some :hug:s

So glad your DH is coming around and showing you the support you deserve x

Again, will come back ;), but I wanted to say I'm glad your DH is coming around :). I really don't like to say this, please don't hate me, but some babies just really don't like routine, no matter what you do. I'm sure that must be incredibly difficult with a toddler as well, but sometimes you can kill yourself trying to fix something that just can't be fixed, IYKWIM? :hug:

That's great Liviam!
Sometimes I think it really helps to change perspective - rather than trying to fix the child, we work around them (ie, dad gets up, cosleep, whatever) and then the child fixes themselves (with time...)
I'm really glad to hear that you're getting more rest.