Book currently being discussed for the month of March is: Love in the time of Cholera by Gabriel GarcĂ*a Márquez
Book currently being discussed for the month of March is: Love in the time of Cholera by Gabriel GarcĂ*a Márquez
Finally!!! :)
I didnt mind this book at the beginning, although I will say I found the ending a big anti-climax. Kind of like "What the hell, they just drift off down the river, then what??!!"
Same here Peach....very anti climatic!
I didnt enjoy it at all. Maybe something was lost in the translation of the book.
ok found this thread!
could we link it to the main bookclub thread so ppl know where to go, pls?
hi.. when is the discussion starting..
all i can say is, the book took forever and then it fell flat!
Seems to be a similiar theme! I thought it was improving but then it went wandering off.... I did wonder if I was after a bit more action, blockbuster type book as that is what I usually read. Glad to hear it was not just me!
Ok - I finished reading this book back in early to mid Feb so I'm going off notes and memory (which is impaired by lack of sleep atm so bear with me!).
* It was difficult to get into. This was more than just the style of writing which was old fashioned, stuffy sort of writing. It was very formal and there were lots of archaic words and words I've never seen before, even though I'm a big reader. (This is not a bad thing but contributed to my early struggles with the book).
* I had trouble placing the story in terms of both era and geography initially but this might say more about my lack of geographical knowledge of the Carribean, than it does about the writing. This is actually partly what kept me reading because I was curious about where and when it was set.
* I found it odd/interesting/different that the author chose to 'set the scene' by going into great detail about two characters, and really developing them (or starting to develop them) and then they died very early in the story. I realise that one of them, Dr. Urbino does play an indirect role in the rest of the story as we follow Fermina Daza through her life. The letter to the woman in the poor part of town that Dr. Urbino visits was a total mystery that is never explained. It is just left hanging for all kinds of assumptions to be made.
* Even though the story picked up pace or readability after the first part, (actually it got more interesting to me when Florentino Ariza entered the story), it still seemed to be a story that went on and on and on and on. I didn't even realise there were chapters until I'd nearly finished the book!! The sentences were extremely long and it felt like the book was kind of droning - this might have been as an attempt to mirror the endless/eternal love that Florentino Ariza feels for Fermina Daza.
* It seemed a very dramatic and romantic version of love that was being depicted by Florentino - this was contasted against the more pragmatic love that Fermina had for Dr. Urbino - at least in the beginning. Her acceptance of his proposal was more about the situation of women in those days than of any affection on her part (understandable). I think that was more realistic of what love and/or marriages would have been like.
* The protrayal of love (Florentino Ariza's) was not one I could readily identify with. It seemed too dramatic, too bound up with the process of suffering and just too much. I am a fairly pragmatic person and perhaps not as prone to being carried away with my emotions but his love was not plausible to me. I found it really difficult to believe that a man could love a woman that strongly, for that long with so little return. It would have been more plausible if they had at least been friends or had more social contact than they did over the 50 years the book covered.
* The ending for me was so unrealistic and seemed to reflect the whole premise of the story really - the total fantasty of Florentino's love for Fermina. Her change in attitude seemed too fast, too convenient for me. I would have needed to read Florentino's letters to her on the meaning of life, love the universe etc that he wrote to her when she became a widow. To me, that might have been the most interesting part of the whole book but we don't get to read them.
* Finally, I did not find the characters particularly likeable. This is not a problem in and of itself I guess. I can enjoy books where I don't like the characters. But Florentino Ariza really annoyed me. lol! I found myself feeling angry regularly throughout the book and wanted to tell him to suck it up and just get on with his life - forget Fermina etc. I can't decide whether it was a strength of his or a weakness that he could not get past her.
Anyway - they're my thoughts. I am glad I've read it. It might be one I come back to in a year or two to see if it improves on acquaintence. Perhaps, when I know the storyline and outcome, I will be able to focus more on the actual messages about love and relationships.
ETA - Would love to know what someone like Oprah thought and the reasons it made it into her bookclub. Does anyone know how her bookclub works? Is it her own recommendations or can authors pay money to have their books endorsed by her?
Doesn't anyone else want to discuss this book?
Hi Kaz!
Hmm I guess not really :dunno: You have made great notes tho!
I also felt like I didn't particularly relate to or like any of the characters, but definitely I found Florentino to be a bit irritating in his total submersion in his suffering.
Fermina's sudden change of heart was a bit difficult to deal with too. I did wonder if I missed alot of the messages as I seemed to have to concentrate hard rather than just skimming.
I third that Florentino was just soo irritating. Also how was all the women that loved him...! Maybe it would've been better if he remained celibate.
I really did struggle with style of writing, just didnt resonate with me at all.
I didn't finish the book. I got the DVD, and found that just as irritating as the book.
I agree, the characters were not easy to relate to in any way. i am sure it must be lost in the translation somewhere.
There also seemed to be alot of unnecessary activity, that could either be there, or not, and the story would remain the same. It provided nothing towards character or plot development.
Oh, and Kaz's point:
I found it odd/interesting/different that the author chose to 'set the scene' by going into great detail about two characters, and really developing them (or starting to develop them) and then they died very early in the story. I realise that one of them, Dr. Urbino does play an indirect role in the rest of the story as we follow Fermina Daza through her life. The letter to the woman in the poor part of town that Dr. Urbino visits was a total mystery that is never explained. It is just left hanging for all kinds of assumptions to be made.
I agree - I thought I just didn't get something. Can anyone explain their take on all of this?
Oh me too!! DS was waking 2hourly every night for weeks as I read this book so I partly thought it was sleep deprivation that meant I wasn't able to think coherently about the statements being made about relationships, love, men, women etc etc. It's good to hear that most other people found it the same way.:
No idea what that first part of the story was about. I am really curious about that artist character and it's quite annoying that it his secrets were never explained.
I think we need someone (or a few someones) who liked the book to come in here and tell us why and put the story into a different light.
You guys keep mentioning that things got lost in translation. Having another dumb moment but was this book originally written in another language? :redface:
Ok, I know this is cheating a bit but I found this information in Wikipedia:
It was translated :doh: of course!
And because the location was bugging me::
Love in the Time of Cholera (Spanish: El amor en los tiempos del cĂłlera) is a novel by Nobel Prize winning Colombian author Gabriel GarcĂ*a Márquez that was first published in Spanish in 1985, with an English translation released in 1988 by Alfred A. Knopf. An English-language film adaptation was released in 2007.
Wikipedia says this about the themes of the book::
The story takes place in an unnamed port city somewhere in the Caribbean, near the Magdalena River. While the city remains unnamed throughout the novel, descriptions of it led one to the conclusion that it must be Cartagena, in BolĂ*var, Colombia, where GarcĂ*a Márquez spent his early years.
Went to Oprah's Book Club website and she said this::
Narrative as seduction
Some critics choose to view Love in the Time of Cholera as a heart-warming story about the enduring power of true love. Others criticize this view as simple, contending that the author has woven a story so dense that the reader risks falling into its trap of sweetness and simplicity if they do not pay close attention to what is happening. GarcĂ*a Márquez himself said in an interview, "you have to be careful not to fall into my trap."[4]
This is manifested by Ariza’s excessively romantic attitude toward life, an attitude which shapes his obsession with Daza, and his gullibility in trying to retrieve the sunken treasure of a shipwreck. It is also made evident by the fact that society in the story believes Daza and Urbino’s marriage is perfect and happy, while the reality of the situation is not so ideal. Critic Booker relates Ariza’s situation to that of Humbert Humbert in Vladimir Nabokov’s Lolita, saying that just as Humbert is able to charm the reader into sympathizing with his situation, even though he is a "pervert, a rapist, and a murderer," Ariza is able to garner the reader’s sympathy, even though the reader is consistently reminded of his more sinister exploits.[4]
Narrative as deconstruction
The notion that Marquez's "trap" refers to our temptation to oversimplify and reduce his narrative to an elementary love story is further abetted by the fact that the novel holds up and interrogates romantic love in myriad forms, both "ideal" and "depraved", and continually forces the reader to question such ready-made characterizations by introducing elements antithetical to these facile judgments.
Love as an emotional and physical disease
GarcĂ*a Márquez's main notion is that lovesickness is a literal illness, a disease comparable to cholera. Ariza suffers from this just as he might suffer from any malady. At one point, he conflates his physical agony with his amorous agony when he vomits after eating flowers in order to imbibe Fermina's scent. In the final chapter, the Captain's declaration of metaphorical plague is another manifestation of this. The term cholera as it is used in Spanish, cĂłlera, can also denote human rage and ire. (The English adjective choleric has the same meaning.) It is this second meaning to the title that manifests itself both on the level of Ariza's hatred for Urbino's marriage to Fermina, as well as the theme of social strife and warfare that serves as a backdrop to the entire story.
Aging and death
Jeremiah Saint-Amour's death inspires Urbino to meditate on his own death, especially the infirmities that accompany it. It is necessary for Fermina and Florentino to transcend not only the difficulties of love, but also the societal view that love is a young person's prerogative (not to mention the physical obstacles that old age brings to physical love).
Suffering for loveFlorentino's penchant for high drama as a poet and a lover is portrayed as both ridiculous and serious. He may go to outlandish lengths for love, but in the end the absurdity is ennobling and his suffering has a kind of dignity. He also endures physical pains.
:
"This is one of the greatest love stories I have ever read. ...; It is so beautifully written that it really takes you to another place in time and will make you ask yourself—how long could you, or would you, wait for love?" — Oprah
Mmmm-hmmm........
Not my thoughts exactly....
Okay, so Oprah may have missed the whole point then???
Thanks for the Wiki reference Kaz - I am going to have another read of it when kids not crazy (so 2014 at this rate, lol) it has given me food for thought.
Perhaps the guided questions for the next book may help my addled brain!
sorry kaz. been meaning to post but just hadnt managed to.
i enjoyed it at the start, but was over florentino;s womanising ways. i found that it was quite long-winded at parts, going into unneccesary description but maybe that's to establish the characters more?
sorry, im being vague here but trying to write this quick while ds is asleep and i can do stuff in the kitchen.
i'll write more but found that last chapter hurried- how fermina and florentino got together so quickly and it seemed so convienient.
i have to run but will come back to post more.
I read the book a couple of days ago and have "digested" it now.
It was interesting. I liked the style: it seems to be a Spanish-influenced style as the few Spanish books I have read (after translation!) read like this. I generally dislike books that start at the end and work back, but this was managable.
The characters were human, I'll give them that. In that just as you start to like them, they pee you off. Urbino I did like - then he had loads of women while he was training. Then he had an affair just as you start to like him again.
Fermia Daza didn't think things through and married Urbino for security. She wanted to be married before age 21. Mmmm. I liked her thought that your love for your children grows as they do, grows with the friendship you develop with them. Then at the end she cuts her daughter off from her life for not liking that prat of a man she took up with. I didn't like Florentino at all!
I did love the way FD just took one look at the chap she'd been writing to and thought "what the hell have I done?" - but didn't like her treatment of FA after that. FA was an idiot though, he went about everything the wrong way. His stalking of her (and the 600+ affairs) was creepy.
As like the rest of you, I didn't like the riverboat ending. I'd rather it ended with FD closing the door on FA after JU died. It wasn't a great love story and quite frankly, I dated a chap a bit like FA (mistake!) and if he was still waiting for me, waiting for DH to die... eugh. The thought turns my stomach. If someone turns you down THAT much - accept it and move on. Find love again. Don't stalk them and sleep with hundreds of people (telling each woman they were his first... who honestly wants to be a chap's first when he's old and bald?) telling yourself you're waiting for this woman. You're not. You're weird.
Oh I couldn't agree more about the weirdness of it all LZ. I have been thinking about this book on and off for days. There are lots of different version of love and ways to have relationships depicted in the story. I would not wait 50 years for romantic love but I would wait that long for my son, to re-establish a relationship with him if something happened. I probably wouldn't even wait for a tenth of that time romantically if the other person was rejecting me though. I'm very pragmatic and not prone to romantic impulses. Having said that, I don't think Florentino actually waited for Fermina. He had heaps of sex and affairs and loved a couple of those women (or could have if he'd not been fixated on Fermina). I also agree that this is not really a love story. It's more a story about life in that part of the world in that historical context. The more I think about Florentino, the more I see him as somebody with mental health issues - he seems obsessive-compulsive to me and to have a very dependent personality style. Some of his physical health problems (constipation etc) seem to be brought on by stress/anxiety. And he developed into a pederast at the end. I was waiting for that young girl to expose him and felt disappointed that she killed herself instead.
I also can't get past the fact that he lied to Fermina at the end by telling her he'd waited and been chaste for her. He's basing their whole relationship on a lie. I can't get past that.
I also keep wondering what the author meant when he said readers shouldn't fall into his trap. I've been trying to work out what that actually means.
:rofl: LZ - I like your view on the whole thing!!
kaz - i think you hit the nail on the head, it wasnt real love for FA, it was indeed an obsession and he is manipulative. the way lied to all the women like he was their one and only. i think his mother had a lot to do with it. in some ways she molly-cuddled him.
yeah, i didnt like the way FD cut off her daughter, i guess it had always been all about her.
Thing is, everyone knew that Florentino was sleeping around: even Fermina. So why not call him up on that? I think you're right Kaz, he was seriously ill. Several screws loose. And sleeping with a little girl his parents asked him to look after while she was at school, then dumping her once Urbino died: he's so very, very wrong. In every sense of the word.
Time to chat about We need to talk about Kevin................
Have at it :)
I for one thought it was a great book, very thought provoking.
I agree with you Freya - It was thought provoking. Are killers born that way or is it because of their home life, that they turn out that way??
In my opinion; from the book, I think Kevin had a mental health issue, maybe something chemical. I dont think it was their parenting at all. Sure they werent perfect and made mistakes, dont we all, but nothing that other parents havent done and not every kid is running around becoming a school shooter. I think if you place blame on them that maybe it should be for not seeking the help of a psychiatrist looooooong before he did what he did.
I cried when she talked about finding Celia and her husband :( So horrible.
I dont blame the parents for they way they raised Kevin, there was something nqr in his brain....like you said kids just dont go around shooting people.
Perhaps they should have taken him to see someone, but when you have two parents who see Kevin in totally different lights, it would make it hard. Her husband thought Kevin could do no wrong, so if she had of brought it up, would he have agreed to him seeing someone? Maybe just to satisfy her, but he wouldn't have like it.
The ending was horrible. I wasnt expecting it to end like that...:shakehead: So very sad.
I guess thats one of the themes of the book - hindsight, what ifs. What if she'd just told her husband to go jump and got Kevin seen by someone? Would it have changed the outcome. What if she had listened to her gut when Celia got hurt, that Kevin wasnt 'safe' to be around?
What boggled my mind was the very end. Even with everything that happened, everything he did; she was still planning on taking him in when he got out of jail. I wondered what her motivation was; was it a mothers love or is it sort of a guilt thing because she thinks she inadvertanly did something to make him the way he is?
I have always said there is a line my kids could cross that would make me cut them off completely. Being a murderer or some other horrid thing was one of the lines. Im not sure if I were her I could do that after what he did.
Just finished Kevin, i'll try join in...
I think i'll do it by point form:
I found myself getting so frustrated at the father. He seemed so rediculously blind to reality. I understand giving someone the benift of the doubt but how many times??
The mother then again maybe could have stood her ground a bit more. She would mention things once, not get any back up and then never again.
The power your children can have over you is very overwhelming though so i'm not saying i would have handeled it any better.
Kevin had them both fooled he knew how to manipulate situations with both of them. The mother wasn't oblivious to this but wasn't strong enough to take the action that needed to be taken.
I get the impression he was too clever to even be seen by psychological help. I could imagine him going, knowing what they wanted to hear and then even having the professionals questioning the parents concerns?
The whole incident at the end was about pride, glorification and individuality "not like the copy cats, who planned it all wrong". It was all about doing it better than everyone else. And it seemed as he solely wanted to hurt his mother, leaving her and him as the only ones remaining. Unless that is what he wanted all along?? Was only even striving for mothers undivided attention which he never felt he got? (that thought just came to me :dunno:)
I never clicked to the actions he would take until so close to the end (using the bow and also hurting his father and sister). I was worried about the father and sister at breakfast but never imagined he would do what he did.
What i don't get is the turn around at the end. So quick, so sudden no real reason for it other than he was off to an adult prison. What, all of a sudden he's got a bit of fear in him????
And the mention that she had a room waiting for him, all set up just like he'd want it to be. Not too sure about that one... Don't know if it's a guilt thing or a mothers love thing?
These are just opinions and thoughts, it is a very confronting book especailly being a parent myself and trying to imagine myself in the same position. I look at my children all the time wondering what they'll become. Thankfully they are happy boys who show lots of love and receive it at the same time. It's not a story i will forget in a hurry.
Yay I finally found the discussion!! I really enjoyed reading Kevin. I knew right from the start that the father was no longer alive, didn't think it was going to be Kevin's doing though. Celia on the other hand, I knew he'd kill her but I kept thinking it was going to happen alot sooner.
I too disliked the father all through the book. He was so oblivious & I felt really annoyed at how he disregarded the mother in regards to Kevin's behaviour all the time.
CheezelMonster, did you just have a 'feeling' her husband wasn't alive? I never guessed it. Thinking back though i do feel that when she was talking about her daughter she didn't really talk about her like she was still with her. And i suppose i always was waiting for Kevin to do something to her but i was still shocked at the details of the ending though.
Yes once I'd read a few pages I just knew he wasn't away on business or something, but still never thought it would be Kevin.
Does anyone have any thoughts on why he "saved" the mother?
I think in the end it all came down to him wanting her approval, time and effort. Maybe he 'knew' from a young age she wasnt 110% invested in him because she wanted her career, because she wasnt sure about being a mother to start with? It seemed like maybe her nervousness and undecidedness bled into her parenting; whereas his dad was totally different, he was overboard imo.
Maybe he didnt like sharing her with her career; husband and eventually Celia. I think he was very much a self focused child, it was all about him. And at the end of the book it was exactly that; he eliminated his competition and what he did put alot of focus on him from all aspects, including her.
I read Kevin a couple of years ago when it first was released, so forgive me if my details are a little vague, :lol:
I'm with cheezelmonster - after a little bit, I realised the Dad was more than away on a business trip... and I too, thought the daughter was no longer around from the way she seemed to speak about her with a tone of 'past tense'.
I found the mothers character extremely annoying & frustrating in the beginning, but I seemed to grow to like her, or at least appreciate her over the course of the book.
The father IMO was a weak man - it always seemed to be easier to stick his head in the sand as there was no way he couldn't see his son had issues :wall:
I felt a little more for the mother as the father took less & less responsibility - I think Kevin was a smart boy (however mixed up) & I think he saw his father as a weak man who passed on responsibility as well.
I expected him to be responsible for the death of his father once I figured out he wasn't alive anymore.... I think maybe the reason he killed both the father & sister was because they were weak/insignificant in his eyes.
Maybe he saw them as average, simple boring people - and he didn't seem to get under their skin as much as he did the mothers.
Maybe thats why he killed them & didn't kill the mother? It was going to hurt her/have more of an effect on her than perhaps if he had chosen to kill her & spare the father? The reaction from him may not have been what he was hoping for?
I think Kevin blamed his mother for who he was - I think he was unhappy with himself & believed some of it was blameable (is that even a word?! lol) on her... he was frustrated & angry at himself & his thoughts/feelings/actions.
Just random thoughts here, as its been a while since I read it ;)
Hollybolly - I thought that too, that in sparing her life he would hurt her more.
Can i say there is a crazy little part of me that felt sorry for him. In that he felt (like has already been mentioned) that he maybe never had his mother 110%. The maps is a pretty obvious one, he was pretty much saying 'scr#w you and scr#w your travelling'. Not to mention the end conclusion...
But then there is that part of me that remembers how the mother said she always saw something in him right from the very beginning that makes me wonder if there is anything she could have possibly done differently :dunno:
It's one of those stories that leaves open so many ifs and buts that all scnarios could be possible.