Help?! DD is absolutely inconsolable at the end of the day

Hiya, I'm hoping someone can help with this cos I'm at the end of my tether...

DD is almost 4 months old and until about 2 weeks ago, she naturally did the feed-play-sleep thing during the day and same at night without the play. Brilliant, couldn't ask for better. I had to either feed or walk her to sleep (in HAB) though, but didn't mind cos I was happy to feed her to sleep and DH happy to walk her to sleep.

Now, she doesn't sleep as much during the day (3 x 30min catnaps), and it's really hard to get her down. She doesn't fall asleep feeding or walking. Sometimes takes 2 hours to get her to sleep for 30mins. So by 6pm, she's absolutely wretched, and inconsolable. Nothing we do seems to help. It seems she really just needs to cry it out (in our arms) and then eventually falls asleep.

I'm so confused by it all, I'm not even sure what to ask...

Maybe:

1) Does the feed-play-sleep thing make sense to everyone? I'm starting to think play-feed-sleep makes more sense. I mean, I'm always sleepy after a big lunch! Are there any negatives to doing play-feed-sleep? Has anyone tried it? Cos at the moment we're doing feed-play-feed-cry-catnap, repeat.

2) How can I get DD to sleep longer? Feeding, walking, rocking, patting, music, wrapping don't always work.

3) I'm sure I have something else to ask... if anyone can help me to fix this, I'll be grateful for ever. I just want her to not have to cry to sleep. She's so adorable when she's happy.

The great thing is that she feeds to sleep at night. I am so sooo so grateful for that.

PS These are the settling things I've tried, all while wrapped and with music:

feeding
feeding lying down
patting with dummy
walking and singing

I haven't been 'strict' (for want of a better word) enough to get my kids into a real routine, but when i have been, the feed-play-sleep has worked fairly well.

The only thing I can suggest to try is where does DD sleep? Is it in her own room? Just thought maybe if she slept in a noisier room (ie, the lounge or something) where you are that might help. Sorry, not much help I guess, but hope it improves soon for you. :hug:

i wish i'd written more down because i find it hard to remember even 4 months ago now but i'm pretty sure my DS went through a similar phase at around 3-4 months.

1) i think that feed-play-sleep may work for some babies but certainly not all of them. i never really did it because DS has always been quite hard to settle without being drowsy from a feed, plus he's always been a very hungry baby so in the early months i wanted to feed him before sleep to get as long a nap as possible!i think that around 2 months i started doing the feed-play-feed-sleep & then DS would go down for his nap & i'd push him in his pram (he slept in the pram bassinet for pretty much the first 3 months) or rock him & he'd have a tiny cry then sleep. at some point he changed himself to feeding to sleep rather than just to drowsy. i think the negatives for me are that now DS nearly always feeds to sleep for both naps & night time sleeps & it means overnight that i need to feed him back to sleep. however, i believe the positives (he goes to sleep happy & calmly, it's natural) have outweighed the negatives & there are gentle ways to break the habit (which will be soon because he wakes alll the time overnight, but that's a whole diff thread :lol:)

2) i found that naps were all over the place until DS turned 6 months(ish). DS changed from settling without any help in his pram to needing to be pushed, to only wanting to sleep on me (that was around the 4 month mark i think), to actually being put down for a nap. so yeah, around 4 months the only way i could get a decent nap from him was to hold him. i think a sling probably would have helped but as i only have the one, it was a good chance for me to rest as well :) i've tried extending DS' naps through patting him as he transitions through sleep cycles & it's been hit & miss for us. the theory is that if you do it consistently over a few days/a week they will start to sleep longer on their own. do you have a naptime routine? DS got a lot more aware around 4 months but it still took me another 2 months to click that i needed to have some sort of wind down routine away from noise etc. now i feed him in a dark room, with a different pillow, before any sleep time - it's not a major routine but it is an indication to him that it's sleep time. now he starts rubbing his eyes as soon as we go into the room before a nap/bedtime.

3) what about a brief massage before sleep? rocking? it sounds like she might just be overtired by the time evening comes around - what about a slightly earlier bedtime? do you do a bath in the evening?

you've probably tried them all already, but they're just what's springing to mind! tbh, DS pretty much cried himself to sleep in the evenings until he started feeding to sleep. i'm looking at how to break the habit in the next month or two but it has been a godsend until now :)

sorry for writing so much :redface:

pash, it can be really hard when you have things working well and something changes :hug: This is a common age for things to start changing, as your DD is at an age where her brain and physical skills are starting to develop rapidly. It is really common at this age for babies to want to feed more often, it seems to be a part of the rapid brain development.

The first thing that occurs to me from reading your post, is that your DD might be getting overtired. It might be that she needs to have her first sleep of the day earlier now. If you miss the "tired window" it can be very hard to get them down. It can help to look out for the tired signs - redness around the eyes, jerky movements etc, or otherwise maybe you could just try putting her down a bit earlier.

The other thing that jumps out at me is that she might be wanting more feeds at this age. How often would you say she's feeding in 24 hours at the moment? My boys naturally fell into a feed-play-feed-sleep pattern, so perhaps you could try that to see how it goes. All babies are different so that might not work for your DD, but sometimes it can help to try something different.

All the best with it hun. You are doing a great job and I know you will get through this :hug:

i would think that 'feed-play-sleep' would have livened her up rather then settled her for sleep...but being very young when she was in that pattern may be the reason why she did that. As they grow their needs do change, so maybe she is just going thru a stage where 'feed-play-sleep' is making her more awake.

Before sleep she may need to do something quiet and relaxing such as feed or bath. And if you are already playing music, maybe try without the music and see if that makes a difference.

My only suggestion for getting her to sleep longer is to ensure she is in a dark room where it is quiet and make sure she is warm and comfortable. A 4 mth old should be sleeping longer then 30 minutes so perhaps there is something causing her to wake up. Does she have a wet or dirty nappy when she wakes up? Do you notice any loud noises coming from outside just before she wakes up?? Does she have wind? I'd be looking for a reason why she's waking up so soon after being put down.

And with regard to crying herself to sleep, does she do this while you are holding her? If she only does this when she is down in her bed or pram, try nursing her to sleep and then putting her down once she is fully asleep. I did that with mine because i also didnt want them crying themselves to sleep.

If she's crying whether you are holding her or not, then i'd be looking for a reason such as wind pain, wet/dirty nappy, uncomfortable, too hot/too cold, still hungry...

And just remember that there are no text book answers to these questions because every baby is different which is why something will work for one but not for the other so expect that there may be a bit of trial and error involved before you find the thing that works best for her.

good luck.

Hi Pash, Every baby is different but my DS went through the same thing a couple of weeks ago at the same age, after talking to lots of people and doing some reading I started to put him to bed earlier in the morning. I now keep him up for only 1 and a half to 2 hours and then he goes back to bed. So he wakes up at around 5am for a feed then back to bed then he is up at 8am, has another feed, play and then back to bed between 9.30am & 10am. Mostly he will sleep for an hour an a half then he is up from 11.30am for another feed, play and back to bed between 1.30pm & 2pm, he generally gets back up around 3pm and then I try to go for a walk around 4.30pm so he will have a little snooze for half an hour then bath, lots of naked play time & massage then feed, story & bed by 6.30pm.

I didn't want to be a 'routine' mum but DS has really demanded it as he was absolutely miserable for about 4 weeks, he was ok at the start of the day but got whingy as the day wore on and by the evening he would scream while I tried to rock him, take him for a walk, feed him, sing to him in the rocking chair, nothing I tried worked as he was so overtired but by getting him to bed earlier during the day he is much, much happier :D

I'm not sure if this will work for you and don't get me wrong, I am not confined to the house or anything but as a rule I try to get him to sleep within an hour and half to 2 hours, so if I go out I take his wrap and wrap him and put him in his stroller or he sleeps in my arms.

I hope this might help a little as I know I was at my wits end and we now have a much happier bub...and mummy too :D

Sorry this is so long. Good luck

Sorry...I also meant to add that we were having trouble where when I did get DS to sleep before, he would only sleep for 40mins and then be up but this seemed to fix itself when I wasn't keeping him up so long between sleeps..hope this helps. And I also hope that now I have written this I haven't 'jinxed' myself...:crossfingers: LOL!

I think the point of 'feed, play, sleep' is that they aren't feeding to sleep & so learn to settle themselves - in theory ;) - it doesn't work for every baby though.

It definitely sounds like she could use more sleep through the day, DD2 is hopeless to try & settle when she's overtired & the window can be quite narrow - if you miss the tired signs, it makes it very difficult. Perhaps as MantaRay suggested, it might be worth trying to get her down a bit earlier for her first sleep?
Not too sure about 4mths, we didn't have much routine going then, but at 6 mths DD2 was up for about 2 hours in the morning before needing a sleep. Even now she only goes about 2 - 3 hours depending on how the night has been.

The other thing is bedtime routine - we were having much the same as you last thing at night, lots of tears no matter what we did & it was worse when she was very tired. We have found a nice routine that works for us, it allows her to know that it's bedtime & wind down a bit - we do dinner, bath, bottle & then massage & quiet play on our bed, she rolls & shuffles & gradually winds down & then gets sleepy enough to settle.
A variation for a 4mth old might be bath, bottle, cuddles / massage / rocking, and you can introduce other elements as they get older.

It's important to start it before they get too tired though otherwise it's all out the window. Starting when she's not too tired lets her go at her pace, without trying to keep up with the world & then just !sleep! ITMS.

Good luck hun, it's not easy - sleep problems are the pits! but you sound as though you'r doing great & I'm sure you'll get it sorted :hug:

Hi everyone, thanks for all your respones.

I found that when I do feed-play-feed-sleep, the second feed doesn't make her fall asleep anymore and she just wants to hang on to my boob. And I spend my life sitting around holding her. It's like being back at the newborn stage! And I'm still feeding her at least every 3 hours cos her weight gain hasn't been great.

I did try getting her first nap in really early, and I think that helped. Have also established a regular pre-bed and pre-nap routine. I think that helps too. The pre-bed routine is bath, massage, story, curtains closed, wrap, feed, bed. The pre-nap routine is curtains closed, wrap, cuddle for a couple of mins, bed.

I didn't want to be a routine mum either and wanted to just go with the flow, but am finding that she seems to like getting to bed earlier, like 6:30, which makes it hard for DH to be home in time for the bath.

The biggest change though is that I'm not even trying to feed her to sleep anymore. That just wasn't working anymore, cos she finishes and still isn't asleep.

So I (skim) read a couple of books: No Cry Sleep Solution and Baby Whisperer. And I've been shh-patting her to sleep (Baby Whisperer). That feels awful and DD hates it. She basically cries until she's exhausted and sometimes that can take upto 2 hours. I have to keep reminding myself that that was how long she cried when we walk her to sleep too. But I feel like an awful mum cos she cries so much, so hard and so long. She's gone hoarse and coos & smiles less now. I don't think she's sleeping that much more either. It feels like controlled crying, except I'm holding her. Sometimes she only cries a few seconds, but she still cries to sleep. And now she starts crying sometimes when I pick her up and walk past the cot.

I'm so confused. It feels so wrong, and so far removed from the baby-wearing, baby-led hippy mum I intended to be. But I think I have to teach her how to self-soothe?

This method feels like doing such a poor job at settling her that she just has to learn how to settle herself. Shh-pat just doesn't measure up to boob in mouth for comfort factor. But I think I need to stick with it for at least a week to give it a chance? I just hope she's not scarred by all the crying.

Thanks again for all your suggestions. It really helped.

i'm only fairly new to this too but i reckon you need to do what feels right to you. if something feels wrong, then it might be worth looking for a different way? i dunno. sounds like you've got some good routines going there & that's giving some good pre-sleeptime cues.

i know my DS def went through a stage of wanting to be held for naps around the same age - but he did grow out of that. although he does still want to be helped to sleep - but i've come to the conclusion that that's just him/his personality.

she's still fairly little so there's plenty of time for her to learn to self settle. hang in there!

I remember I just seemed to get DD to nap and then she hit that age. She seemed to have a MASSIVE development period of about a month then resettled.

My DD always needed to go to bed early, about 6.15pm. I didn't have a choice. By the end of the day she was so tired that I felt terrible if I didn't put her to bed that early! At about 4 months, DD2 was similar to your DD so I'm thinking it was a bit of a stage too. She would catnap about four or five times a day. I introduced a sleep routine about 6 months because before then, she just seemed a bit young and seemed to need to sleep the way she wanted. She would wake up about 6am and then need to go to sleep about 1 hour later. I would just put her down when she got grizzly or looked tired. Sometimes that meant she was only up for 30 min but she would sleep, sometimes only for 20 min but it was better than having her up and cranky. If it was me, I would pay less attention to the feed/play/sleep thing and just do what you think is right. If she looks like she's tired, just put her to bed, whether she's had a feed or a sleep or not. If she looks happy and awake, give her a bit of playtime. But don't be too strict on the routine. At that age, they are still quite little. I'm just speaking from my experience though with two very different babies and needing to try lots of different things. What worked for me might not work for you but just saying what comes to mind if I was in your situation (again ;) ) good luck hun. Life revolves around sleep (or lack thereof) with young children!

We don't do routine here... If he rubs his eyes we go to bed with boob, if he doesn't go to sleep after a while we get up for a bit... next time he rubs his eyes we go back to bed with boob... He used to sleep without me but now he only stays asleep if boob stays with him so daytime sleeps can be as long as four hours if I have the time to lie with him, or as short as an hour if we have to go somewhere. If we need to leave in less than an hour I don't put him down but I leave early so he'll sleep in the car on the way.
At night he gets boob to sleep and then he sleeps for 12 hours whether I'm next to him or not. (He occasionally startles awake but boob for 5 mins sends him off again.)
So no routine can work if you have the time and freedom.

My DD is almost 4months too, and her day naps have changed. She used to sleep for 2hour stretches, every 2/3 hours during the day. Easy peasy.
Now she has three 30min naps and then goes down for the night at around 7pm.
She no longer simply goes to sleep on her own for any of these sleeps.. I find I have to cuddle her, walk around.
Here's a trick you may not have tried: Sit on your bed with your legs straight in front and place a pillow on your shins, and let her lie on it, and shake your legs from side to side till she falls asleep. I read a book while doing this!
I have found also that when she really doesn;t want to sleep, I realise that she's hungry..AGAIN. So your DD may be going through a growth spurt/developmental milestone.
Oh and I don't feed play sleep anymore.. Sometimes she's just not interested in feeding when she wakes up, but loves a nice relaxing feed before bed!

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I didn't want to be a routine mum either and wanted to just go with the flow, but am finding that she seems to like getting to bed earlier, like 6:30, which makes it hard for DH to be home in time for the bath.

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You are a great mummy xx

Routines in children really are the best thing for them purely because kids thrive on knowing what comes next. There is little they can control at this age, so predictability makes them feel prepared for what's coming next.

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So I (skim) read a couple of books: No Cry Sleep Solution and Baby Whisperer. And I've been shh-patting her to sleep (Baby Whisperer). That feels awful and DD hates it. She basically cries until she's exhausted and sometimes that can take upto 2 hours. I have to keep reminding myself that that was how long she cried when we walk her to sleep too. But I feel like an awful mum cos she cries so much, so hard and so long. She's gone hoarse and coos & smiles less now. I don't think she's sleeping that much more either. It feels like controlled crying, except I'm holding her. Sometimes she only cries a few seconds, but she still cries to sleep. And now she starts crying sometimes when I pick her up and walk past the cot.

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I used the Baby Whisperer techniques with my son and am using it again with my 6 week old (from day 1)

Remember darling that you shouldn't be shh/patting for 2 hours. It's way too long and it's just going to make you feel horrible.

If it isn't working after say 20 minutes, then pick bub up and wait until she is settled, once she's drowsy but not asleep, pop her back in bed and give her a little pat in the cot. If you find that you just can't get her to sleep, then get her up, try a little bit of a feed if she's hungry, a short A time and try again.

PUPD (pick up put down) is recommended with this age group vs the shh/pat.....but remember, Baby Whispering isn't about putting your baby into a strict routine or watching the clock, it's about learning your baby's cues and responding to them. It's also about teaching independent sleep without CIO (which I found really helpful).

Does your baby take a dummy? Could you try to put her in the cot drowsy, pat and use the gradual removal method so she isn't dependent on the dummy to fall asleep? Where are you putting her to sleep?

If you post what times things are generally happening, I'd be really happy to take a look for you and see if we can figure out what you need to work on?

Also remember that at 4 months things start to change quite a bit, your bub is doing things in leaps and bounds. Flexibility is definitely the key, but predictability in that is essential. The most important thing is sleep at this age - so even if it means having to hold her while she gets a solid hour or so - do it. Because with bub being rested, you are more than likely to get back on track for the next nap vs wrangling an overtired baby.

xx

pash, you can have routine without it being a schedule. In my experience, most babies love routines, as long as it is their routine - that is following their lead for when it's eat and sleep time.

I think the two books you have mentioned are very different from each other. The No Cry Sleep Solution is a a fantastic book - there's one for toddlers too. The techniques in there are very different to the Baby Whisperer. I remember a time when I unsuccessfully tried "shh-pat" too. It didn't work and like you, it didn't feel right. Have you tried any of Elizabeth Pantley's suggestions - I think you will find they are far more in line with your philosophies. Pinky McKay is another author I love, love, love. Sleeping like a Baby is awesome, and for down the track, Toddler Tactics is just fantastic.

Best of luck to you hun.

Its hard hun, Big hugs!
Neither of my boys were feed/play/sleepers and DS1 would go into hysterics when ever I put him down as a baby, so I borrowed a front pack and put him into that. It let him be close to me and sleep when he wanted (it also helped with his cronic reflux)
My sugestion is to not worry too much about what you are "suppose"to do, do what you think your baby needs. Watch baby, really work out her signalls tired, hungry, lonely and when you have those down pat you will feel more confident that your giving her what she needs and perhaps work out whats going on. Does she have colic? silent reflux? or just going through a unsettled time, most babys have those times. Your doing great hun! Really :)

Don't have time to write much now but your DD sounds REALLY overtired with the short sleeps and evening screaming. She is screaming with tiredness at night but not being able to go to sleep. I got a book from the library called Is you child overtired? and found it quite useful. Unfortunately the answer is more sleep so do what you can for a few days to get some long naps in for DD during the day- even if you have to hold her etc so she gets a few good blocks. I did go thru the same and it is all resolved now!

Pash, my almost 4mo DS2 has started catnapping for 20-30 mins approx 3 times daily. The past 2-3 nights particularly, but on and off during the past 2-3 weeks, he has really been unhappy around 7pm and DH and I have to wrap him, walk and rock him to put him to sleep. Fortunately it usually only takes 10 or so minutes, but it's not so nice seeing your happy baby very unhappy.

I'm aware that DS2 is overtired by evening, and that's why he's crying ... but trying to keep him asleep longer than 30 mins during the day is much easier said that done. DS1 used to love a dark, quiet environment - but DS2 isn't quite so lucky as we're in a different house now (his room's not as dark) ... and there's a noisy toddler running around!

My "trade off" is that DS2 is sleeping approx 10 hours straight overnight, and he already weighs 7.6kg, so in all regards he's thriving. Most of the time he's a pretty happy little chappie - it's just lately that he's been Mr Cranky Pants around 6-7pm.

I'm not sure I can offer you any advice, other than to say that we don't really have any solid routine in place, and won't until DS2 is a few months older. I think that under the age of 6-7 months, you do whatever you need to do to get bub to sleep. You know what's best for you bub and what feels right.

My opinion only, but I think that at four months of age, they need their mummy and daddy cuddles and reassurance, and if this means cuddling to sleep or whatever, then so be it. Plenty of time down the track to work on self-settling.

One thing I do know, is that babies likes/dislikes, happiness/unhappiness goes in fits and starts. What works one week, may not necessarily work the next. DS1 was an easy baby but some weeks he needed cuddling and rocking to sleep, then for a few weeks he'd self settle with minimum reassurance. The suddenly he'd need help again. I found with DS1 that he led his routine, but by around 8-9 months we'd developed a fairly set routine which ultimately led to food, bath and bed by 7pm, with at least a couple of sleeps during the day totalling 2-3 hours. Even now he has times where he needs a little help going to sleep, but usually he nods off easily on his own.

Babies are interesting little critters ... just when you think you get to understand their habits and routines, they chuck you a curve ball. All you can do is roll with the punches.

And I guess that's the point of my post. While it's sometimes confusing and upsetting to see your bubba so unhappy, it will get easier, so just try and keep your spirit positive and trust yourself and your instincts about how to best get your DD to sleep.

Good luck :)!

Back again! I hope I didn't sound too breezy about it in previous post... I have found that when DS woke at the 30 or 45 min mark to pick him up (wouldn't self settle and didn't expect him to) and walk him back to sleep so he got in another 30 or 45 mins which would help for the next sleep. I think what helped me most was my mum's advice to feed, sleep, play rather than sleep, feed, play as my DS settles much more easily when he has just been fed rather than an hour earlier. He doesn't feed to sleep as such (sometimes he does!!) but has a full tummy and been winded when he goes down.

remedys, we have found have helped. We have rescue remedy in several forms we have liquid drops that can be added to a drink, pastilles that are great for toddlers etc and a spray with white chesnut in it, this is a nice natural sleep aid that really helps to calm, takes afew minutes but like I said, its helped us ALOT

Thanks everyone for all your ideas and advice. I've tried out almost all of them and with a bit of trial and error, I've found a method that eventually puts DD to sleep. About 1.5 hours after she wakes up, I look out for her sleepy signs. If I see any, I take her to our room, close the curtains, say night-night to the world outside (lol), put her in her sleeping bag and then walk around while singing "In the jungle, the quiet jungle, the lion sleeps tonight...". She eventually falls asleep with some grizzling but without the full blown scream/wailing for hours that she was doing. As long as my back holds out, I'm happy to have a method that puts her to sleep.

If I try to shh instead of singing, she screams. So I finally have an audience for my out of tune singing! So I came upon that by trial and error, cos I don't tend to sing a lot, being totally tone deaf!

I also have the radio on during the day, and will work on putting her down drowsy instead of fully asleep. But first, I'm going to work on extending her naps. I always run around during her naps, and am never in the room when she is about to wake so that I can pat her back to sleep. But I will try.

This isn't exactly self-settling, or even low effort, but I don't mind (at the moment). I'm just glad that she isn't screaming herself hoarse. ALthouhg, it's really only been one day and I don't want to jinx myself. Oh, and the last couple of nights she's been waking up every hour or 2 which is just exhausting, but I'm hoping that once the naps are sorted, this will sort itself out. If not... I'll be back with another thread!

Thank you everyone for making me feel liek there's light at the end of the tunnel.

PS I don't know who said this, but I read No Cry Sleep Solution, Baby WHisperer, Baby Love, Sleeping Like a Baby, The 90 Minute Baby Sleep Program... I think that is all! And I found the No Cry Sleep Solution had lots of ideas that didn't seem cruel and the 90 minute sleep program gave me permission to stop trying to settle DD after 15 mins and try again after 90 mins!

PPS KatieRabbit Its good to know that someone out there does feed-sleep-play. That makes so much more sense to me. I'm sort of feeding her every 3 or 4 hours, whenever it seems to fit in around her sleeps.

if DD is teething, maybe offer her some panadol before u try and get her to sleep or give her a nice bath and massage at the end of the day and see if that works

I can't believe it's been 2 months since I posted an SOS call with DD's sleep! LAst night, DH finally figured out what she needed.... to be put on her front to sleep. ANd then, only at night. On her back during the day. It is SOOOOO wonderful to have our evenings back! Thank you everyone for all your suggestions and support. x x x