For those who can't/couldn't breast-feed.....

Hi all.

I've been inspired to think about this question after reading something that was posted over at Facebook, the quote about coke/pepsi.....

I understand that there are mums out there who can't/couldn't bf, and I asked this question as a comment.
So to all those mums:
On what basis did you come to the conclusion that you were unable to bf, that you "had no choice"? Was it diagnosed by a Dr/Midwife/Lactation Consultant (trained & qualified)?
On what basis was that diagnosis/decision made?

Please understand that I am asking this question merely to understand the situation, and I am not trying to make some cheap snipe at formula-fed babes and their mums, or implying that you are somehow inferior or uncaring.

As I posted on FB, Chinese Medicine (CM) has recognised the phenomenon of "inability to breast-feed" as a known pathology. This condition is written about both in gynaecological texts and paediatric texts that stretch over the whole history of CM (somewhere close to 2000 years). As a known 'pathology', it therefore also had treatments that included herbal medicines, massage, acupuncture & moxibustion, and dietary therapy (and I believe there may also be some Qigong exercises focussing on this also).

I am curious to hear from those mums who COULDN"T bf - answering the above questions, and also "did you try CM approaches to the problem before going straight to formula or other methods; if so did they work, what were they, etc? If not, why not? Were you aware that CM could help you in that situation? If the same situation came up, would you try CM?

Also, to all those professionals (Midwives, qualified lactation consultants, Drs): do you know how CM can help in these situations? What is the research/evidence out there about the INABILITY to bf? What is the current consensus? What methods/treatments are commonly employed? etc....

I would like to hear from those mums who had the situation come about that they "had no choice" but to use Formula (read= could not breast feed), and I would like to hear from professionals in the field.

I am willing to share what I know about this stuff, but please remember that the core principle in CM is treat the individual, not the condition, so there is never a 'one-size-fits-all' treatment for these things.

Cheers!
:)

I did try to breast feed my girls. But after 6 weeks of pain with DD1 it was all too much. I was only 18 & didn't know how to get the support to keep going. I wanted to, but none of my friends or family knew anything about it, so couldn't help me. I asked my MCHN about the pain, apparently attatchment was perfect. No other suggestions. No offer of the advice of a LC or the ABA. Nothing. DD2 was 4 weeks & after thrush & cracks I just figured I was useless & gave up. Again not knowing where to go for support.
With DS I told my MCHN I would not give up. She rang the LC for me & that, at 6 weeks, was my tuning point.
I do feel ripped off that I was never offered any extra support, or even phone numbers at the start.

For me i got mastitis around 1-2 weeks bfing, i took some meds (and coincidence maybe?) i developed a supply issue in my left breast, and my right breast was making 90% of the milk (a guess really lol) (also i did go to a LC when DD was about 2and a half months but i think it was too far gone and maybe someone where deep inside me i was done with the stress and a small part of me wanted to stop? i dont kow) over time i was not making enough milk and i had to supplement with formula, which is just a vicious cycle coz over time my milk was less and less (and i tried many many ways to increasemy suplly) at a bout 4 months i started thinking maybe our bfing journey was coming to an end, i also was sarted work when DD was 6 months so at 4.5 months i weaned her onto formula. it was one of the hardest decisions i had to make. i still regret it but i tried to darn hard and i ask anyone to tell me i didnt!! But i learnt alot and now i know what not to do and what to do!! Hopefully next time round i will be much more prepared. No one told me breast feeding is hard work.

i replied on fb but here's what i said again

:

---

peter with my first son, I had heaps of colustrum the night before he was
born, but nothing at all not a drop after, we tried for 4 days pumping attaching everything the hopsital could think of I had not one drop, he was
FF in SC then these feeds were dropped and after 2 days of nothing but
trying me he was getting sick...with my 2nd son I did ... See Moreeverything I could
think of I had milk if I expressed the problem was I developed severe odema, and needed to go on medication which was not good for b/f mums I had to
decide if my health was more important than b/f and yes it was if my health problems prevented me caring for a 3 year old and a newborn then that had to
be the priority....also alternative therapys would be great unfortunalty I
live in a small country mining town in QLD, the nearest specialists are 2
hrs away...I was unable to find a altenative therepasit when TTC that was closer than 4-5hrs away...so sometimes there aren't any other alternatives

---

I couldn't BF because I didn't produce any milk. My baby didn't sleep and screamed for days, the MW kept telling me to persevere and that by the 3-4th day my milk would come in. It didn't. I made the decision to FF after the midwife gave my starving son a bottle of formula and he stopped crying instantly and slept! I went home from hospital with a stack of formula and a perfect baby.

I didn't get and milk 2nd time around either but 3rd time I got a small amount in 1 breast but by that time I was already FF her so didn't 'bother' trying to BF.

I didn't get any medical diagnosis, but I suspect there is an underlying problem that is as yet undiagnosed. My breasts did not increase in size at all during my pregnancy, and I never had any colostrum leaks before birth.

I gave birth prematurely at 36 weeks - to a baby that couldn't suck (low blood sugars, and very weak suck reflex), couldn't attach... I was in hospital with him for 10 days. During that time I pumped constantly - and after 10 days at each session on the pump I would be lucky to get barely 2mL of colostrum each time. Day 10 and it was still just colostrum and my milk had not come in.

We came home - and I continued to pump, but it all became too much for me. When there was someone else to make up the bottles and clean everything for me, I could cope, but when I had to do everything - not happening.

I lasted a few more days and then gave it away and went with full-time formula feeding.

When my son was 8 weeks old I had to start taking a medication to hopefully keep my arthritis under control and allow me to care for my son in other ways. It's a dangerous medication - one that cannot even be handled by pregnant or breastfeeding women, so even if I had been able to, I would have needed to stop.

When there's no milk, how do you feed? We tried medications to increase my supply, but they just didn't do enough quickly enough to make any difference.

BW

I actually felt a bit offended by that post on FB...maybe FF isn't ideal, but you know I'd rather feed my DD formula than have her starve! No need to make mums that FF any worse about that decision.

DD just never got the hang of latching on and sucking properly, we got little to no support from the hospital in helping me to try and BF her. A couple of the midwives were great, but it wasn't consistent. Living rurally there wasn't much opportunity to see a lactation specialist, and at the time I was much happier using formula than persisting with a screaming hungry baby trying to get her to latch on and feed. It was stressing me out and DD was distressed, so was much better for both of us to go down the FF route than trying to struggle on alone attempting to BF. I did try and express for a few weeks but realised I couldn't go on doing it as it was all just getting too overwhelming trying to get used to being a mum and looking after a newborn as well as trying to BF/express and I wasn't getting much milk out anyway.

So for us I'm happy we went down the FF path, I think it created a closer bond than fighting each other trying to BF just for the sake of BF.

With DD not milk came out... Drs figured my milk ducts must have been damaged during my breast reduction 2 yrs earlier.
With DS I had NO support. I was told to feed him after he was born, the midwife left the room, came back & asked how I went. I told her he wouldnt attatch & I couldnt feed DD when she was born maybe this would be the same. She said probably & stuck him on formula. I got home, day 5 I noticed I was leaking from my nipples. Super excited I tried to attatch DS, he wouldnt attatch. I got a breast pump & got out a fair amount of collustrum. Gave that to him in the bottle. I tried to BF for about 6 weeks but ended up with an infection one of my nipples which I needed AB's for. My XH was very much against me BFing (long selfish story on his part) So I gave in.
If I ever have a 3rd baby I WILL be BFing ;)

I did repost the status, but I did make it clear under it why I did. I know people who couldn't BF for medical reasons. My aunt couldn't as she had to get straight back on her epilepsy medication after both children, a friend couldn't coz she had to have a blood transfusion after birth & was told her recovery would be too hard if her body was working to BF as well. So neither of them attempted, but had reasons.
I reposted it because I know too many people who think it's not right, or didn't consider it, coz they just aren't interested in trying it out. My reason for reposting was because some people really don't get the benifits of it. They don't know how good it can be for them & their babies if they do succeed. Some of the younger mothers think that formula is better. I have friends who think they'll be avoiding BFing, coz the baby will sleep better on formula. IMO thats a pretty silly reason to go against BFing.
I do not judge anyone who didn't, or couldn't BF. I was one of them. I just think so many people need so much more education on the subject. Even now with all the info out there.

ss_storm, I posted this in someone elses FB thread when someone said it made her feel like shiz.

:

---

Mel didn't make you feel like ****... no-one can 'make' you feel anything. It is a hard position to be in but it's all about how we as an individual process and feel about it. One person using formula may be content in knowing they are nourishing their baby when nothing can. And others may be harboring feelings of guilt, resentment, failure... which is what makes us angry and/or lash out at others, when it is our own headspace than made us do it. *hugs* for all the mums out there. We're put into tricky positions all the time and we all deserve huge hugs and love x

---

Remember before you get angry/offended at others, to think where those feelings of anger come from. Anger is secondary to another feeling - always. Like you could yell and scream at your child for touching a stove. They didn't make you angry. You're angry because you're scared they will hurt themselves, or angry because you feel like they don't listen to you when you tell them over and over again not to touch it.

DD1's birth was traumatic - she was induced and born after four hours of absolute agony, and then I bled very nearly to death within minutes of delivering the placenta. I lost so much blood I needed three transfusions and my body just shut down in an attempt to heal. I was running on no sleep, the baby screamed constantly as I had no milk, I was still bleeding profusely and extended family thought it was fine for them to just roll up and bring all their friends and spend hours passing the baby back and forth... my stress levels were through the roof.
DD1 was on the breast constantly for two out of every three hours... I was still getting no sleep. In between feeding, and during feeding, she would just scream and scream. Midwife said her attachment was 'perfect', but it was so incredibly painful I knew something had to be wrong.

Two days later, my nipples were just about falling off me - bleeding, chapped, every time DD1 came near my chest I burst into tears and shrank away from her, knowing I was about to be in immense pain again. There was still no milk. I was still bleeding, sleepless, and a midwife had the nerve to harass me because my daughter crying at 4am because she was starving was 'disturbing the other babies' in the ward. I begged her to give DD formula, she refused. I kept trying to BF. I kept failing. The next midwife gave her a bottle and took her to the nursery for the night so I could sleep, and she said DD guzzled two lots of formula and slept perfectly through the night.

On our way home from hospital, I stopped at Priceline and bought a breast pump, nipple shields, bottles and sachets of formula, intending to just get through this difficult period and then resume breastfeeding when my milk came in. It just never did. I was expressing for 30mins each side every 2.5 hours, and barely getting a drip to mix with formula to give to DD. I persisted for 6 whole weeks, and never got more than 10 or 20ml per express... I was losing even more sleep because when I SHOULD have been sleeping, I was expressing and trying to establish a supply. Nobody supported me - 'just give her formula if it's easier'. My mother (with whom DH and I were living at the time) would interrupt my attempts at BFing using a shield because someone had come over to see the new baby and mum refused to 'lose face' by telling them to call first or come back later (I was far too embarrassed to attempt BFing in front of anyone but DH until I got the hang of it - which I never did).
I had no post-natal care, the midwives who performed DD's checkups never bothered to ask, just told me to keep expressing and changed the subject. I felt they'd already judged me as not caring enough or trying hard enough.

At 6 weeks, I had a near-breakdown due to the lack of sleep and not coping well with the trauma of birth and adjusting to caring for a newborn. I fed DD1 a bottle of formula and she slept through for the first time since she'd been born. It was a sign - no more BFing. It wasn't working.

It all went uphill from there and I've never looked back. I probably *could* have succeeded had I had more support, more resources, a professional who cared enough to actually find out WHY I wasn't producing milk (I'm assuming it was stress, my body in healing mode from the birth rather than putting energy into producing milk) and help me overcome it... but I really don't mind any more. When DD2 was born after a spontaneous natural labour, my milk came in straight away and we successfully BF'd for nearly 6 months without even trying - it just worked. So I know now that I CAN BF, given the right circumstances. The odds were just not in my favour first time around and I don't mind, I've made my peace with it :)

FWIW re CM etc, well, it's very hard living in a regional area with no resources (I didn't even have access to Community Health nurses as the building was closed for renovations and so middies were not providing ANY services during those months, not even the typical home visits etc). DH and I don't have health cover, and very little money to spare on 'luxuries' like medical care (we see a bulk-billing doctor and now that I've lost my HCC privileges - due to being approx $4 over the threshold! - we don't usually bother to get prescriptions filled unless we're going to be much worse off without medication, kwim?) so Chinese medicine was both 'unnecessary' and unavailable to us at the time. We wouldn't have known to even look for it, really - we had no support from anybody, no resources to get information or advice :(


ETA: re the Pepsi v Coke analogy... well, if we were on a desert island and starving, I'd feed them KFC before letting them go hungry!! ;)

My milk never came in with DD, and we were in hospital for a week trying to establish feeding and milk supply - I tried to feed her for another 2 weeks after we got home from hospital, and she would cry and be hungry all the time. The midwife at the mum's group I attended said that I wasn't producing milk because I didn't really want to feed my baby and that I needed to attach DD all the time to encourage my milk production and stop being selfish, so I did. I sat home, rarely left the house and had DD attached all the time except when she slept (which was rare as she was hungry all the time!). By nipples were red raw and I cried nearly all the time from pain, exhaustion and hopelessness. I tried to express and after a dose of mastitis reduced the 15ml I was getting from my left breast to nil, and my right breast could only just produce 20ml a day I went back to by OBGYN and he said that I wasn't producing enough for DD, she was losing weight rapidly and that I should put her on formula as it was the best option for all of us. I intially started supplement feeding and kept trying to BF to see if anything would impove, but my breaking point came a few days after my visit to the OBGYN when one of the midwives at the new mum's group I attended made me sit and feed DD for 30mins solid after I told her about my visit to my OBGYN. She said he didn't know what he was talking about, that a man doesn't know anything about breast feeding, sat me down, attached DD and wouldn't let me give her a bottle even though she was screaming because she was hungry and I had nothing for her. Again, she told me that I wasn't producing milk because my heart wasn't in it, and I was being selfish by depriving my daughter and was looking for excuses and convenient ways to avoid having to BF. This went on for 30 minutes before I packed up and left while the midwife went to the toilet and I could 'escape'.

Needless to say the emotional wreck that called my DH was no longer his wife - it was an emotionally destroyed woman who was made to feel and think she was the biggest failure and worst mother in history. DH called the midwife to give her a serve and to date I have never gone back and never spoken to the midwife again. And I refused to let DD go to the baby clinic, all her checks, immunisations and everything have been done by our family GP and the private paediatrician since that day.

My experience is one I would never wish on anyone, but I am still an advocate for breastfeeding, and I hope to breastfeed successfully when we have another child. This doesn't change the fact that formula saved my sanity and my daughter's life, and she is the happiest toddler I could ever have imagined, and the change in her as a baby when she started formula was amazing and it was wonderful to have a happy baby who didn't cry constantly simply because she was starving and slept soundly with a full tummy. And I still had eye contact and gently stroked her face and held her close while she was bottle feeding, just as I did when I was trying to BF and DD and I are as bonded as you could imagine, despite the midwife telling me that DD wouldn't bond with me if I didn't BF.

I did what I had to do for our daughter's health and I have no regrets, and I would do it all again in a heartbeat if necessary.

Firstly, I just want to say to come of the mums that had such a difficult time trying to bf/establish bf & little or no support a huge *hug*

In response to your questions, my answers follow:

On what basis did you come to the conclusion that you were unable to bf, that you "had no choice"? Was it diagnosed by a Dr/Midwife/Lactation Consultant (trained & qualified)?
On what basis was that diagnosis/decision made?

I didn't really come to a conclusion that I was 'unable' to bf or that I had 'no choice'. I found bf extremely difficult & frustrating. I am a very emotionally closed person & I don't think it was until day 7 or 8 after having my DD that I actually cried b/c of how tired and distressed I was over trying to establish bf. It was my full intention to bf until DD was approx. 12 months old (or longer or shorter depending on personal circumstances) and I read alot on forums (like BB) and went to the hospitals lactation class - which IMO was not that beneficial in hindsight - too clinical and pretending to BF a doll does not lead to successful bf / bf estalishment. My gf even bought me a bf pillow & I watched my friends bf their children (my mum did not bf for long periods of time) I found attachment difficult & DD constantly falling asleep on my breast whilst only feeding for a short period of time (ie: minutes) but perservering at all hours in the morning/day/night to feed for over an hour at times so DD would settle to sleep - which she did not. The midwives suggested comp feeding with formula & the change was immediate with my DD - she looked content and slept. So, the routine was I would bf, top up with formula if she needed it (which she did) and then express to encourage my supply. This wasn't commenced until about day 5/6 after DD was born and what I did express appeared to be still colostrum & approx. 2 ml. I also ended up with mastitis in hospital, which was surprising considering I was bf & expressing. The final crunch came when a midwife sat with me one morning (approx. breakfast time) and suggested I stay in hospital longer (I was already on day 8) and continuing what I was doing or put DD onto forumla. I broke down in tears. I decided I did not have the strength (emotionally) to bf, express & comp feed so made the decision after chatting to DH to put her on formula. I was also referred to a counsellor for suspected PND - I was diagnosed with anxiety over bf establishment.

"did you try CM approaches to the problem before going straight to formula or other methods; if so did they work, what were they, etc? If not, why not? Were you aware that CM could help you in that situation? If the same situation came up, would you try CM

As answered above, I tried a combination of bf, expressing & comp feeding prior to putting DD exclusively on formula. No other methods were tried or even considered. I was not aware that CM could help. If the same situation came up, I would try alternative methods but probably not CM.

DD1 and DD3 never had trouble bfing. DD2 suffers from Primary Lactose Intolerance and was reacting to breastmilk. She was put on a prescription formula early on and only then began to thrive.

sure - you can't make some feel something, but through thoughtless (or deliberately ignorant) words & actions, you definitely set the path to a particular response. Like alluding to (or stating) that a mother is inferior or her parenting techniques are damaging because her choice is different to yours. There's not many people that could shrug that off.

Be gentle with people from that other side of the fence... your grass may be so tall & green, you can't see their story & hardships.

But as I won't know what I can and can't achieve with BF for another few weeks, I guess I'm unqualified to contribute. I will bow out right here (until next month!).

Entreat, i dont think i did that at all, nor did i mean to. However that may be your interpretation. As i posted on FB there are some mothers who just cannot bf, and there are emotional issues like sexual abuse to consider. Just like some women need c/s some need to use this too. You misinterpret my views on this. Always has been my opinion, always post it too, to make it clear. But with bf rates as low as they are, we cant all be biologically programmed not to be able to. Sure this post is going to cause people with awful stories to react. Some still struggling with guilt or feeling inadequate due to their decision may not post. I know there are people out there though who could say they got caught up in bad info, self diagnosis etc. Ive done it. Its life, i'm happy and healthy & so are my kids.

I BF DD1 until she was 4 months old. I thought we were doing really well but she had started screaming every time I went to feed her and became very larthargic. Anyway, being my first baby, I took her to weigh her every month. I weighed her at about 4 months thinking that she would be pushing the 6kg mark (she was just over 5kg when I weighed her at around 3 months). I was shocked that she was barely weighing in at 4kg. When she was born she weighed 3.8kg. At 4 months she was down to 300g over her birth weight.

I immediately went in to see the lactation consultant (there was one at the centre where I weighed my baby and she happened to be free). I had seen the lactation consultant once before when DD1 was 6w old to ensure everything was going okay because I was stressing about attachment. The lactation consultant gave me some things to try to stimulate my milk supply. DD1 continued to scream through every feed and I saw the lactation consultant again 5 days later and DD1 had lost another 100g. We talked about more things I could try and I went away and did them. When I weighed DD1 again she had lost another 50g. I didn't bother going back to the LC again, I switched to formula. DH was quite vocal about switching over to formula because he was really worried. I don't blame him. I didn't realise at the time but I look at photos now and she was tiny. DD1 gained 500g on her first week of formula. It was amazing!

I have looked long and hard at reasons to help me be more successful bfing my other babies and I think there were a number of reasons that it didn't work the first time and my milk dried up - especially since I have such great supply after birth and I never supplemented DD1's feeds. She had never had formula until the day I stopped BFing her. I went cold turkey and had no issues with engorgement or leaking so I am pretty certain I had nothing there and DD1 was starving.

The first reason I think my milk dried up was because I hated feeding in public but I am a very social person. I hated having to hide away to feed my baby, but I was very self conscious of feeding in front of others. If I was out, anywhere, once I stopped being able to express, I would feed until DD1 pulled off and assume that she was done. If she kicked up a real stink, I would bregrudgingly feed her more but I really just didn't want to be stuck on my own feeding away from all the fun. I have learned to feed in public and let it take as long as it needs to.

Even as tiny babies, all my kids have only ever fed for 15 mins tops to fill up because I have good and fast flow especially in the early days. My kids tend to drown in my milk and pull off leaving it spraying all over the place. Now it doesn't phase me because I expect it and it's okay. When DD1 was a baby, it would freak me out and added to me not enjoying the bfing experience. I know what to rexpect this time and prepared myself mentally for bfing.

I was paranoid about correct attachment. I read all that info about attachment but nothing had prepared me for feeding with big boobs. I can't hold my baby in a cradling position to feed her, I have to support my boobs with my hand or a rolled up washer and lay my baby on a pillow. It didn't look like I thought it would. They tell you that most of the areola should be in the baby's mouth. My areola was quite large so I was forever unattaching my baby because it didn't 'look right'. No-one told me to just worry about how it feels. They tell you how it should look and sound and I thought I was doing it wrong all the time when it was actually okay so I was interrupting my let down because I was always fussing because I didn't want to injure my nipples and make feeding more difficult.

I was discharged from hospital with DD1 12 hours after she was born, which was fine but the only times I had bf in hospital were in birth suite when the midwife attached her for me and again in maternity when the midwife attached her. I went home with a baby that I had never feed unassisted so I struggled through the first night until the home visiting midwife (who was also the midwife who delivered DD1) came to visit. She taught me how to attach DD1 but shocked me a bit with telling me that she didn't think I enjoyed bfing very much and asked me if I would prefer to switch to formula. I was a bit shocked that she would so quickly make that conclusion based on feeding that happened in birth suite while I was hooked up to all sorts of drips and had a canulla hanging out of my arm. It probably didn't give me a good mental start to bfing either. I hadn't expected the midwife to encourage me so strongly not to feed. That was why I ended up seeing the lactation consultant.

I am bfing DD2 still. She is 8 months old next week and it is the most successful bfing journey I have had. We are going strong and I am so proud of myself and her for what we have acheived together. I never made it this far with my other two and only this time discovered that I seem to hit the same hurdles with each baby at about the same times but it has all been smooth sailing from about 5 months onwards. I have had to make a really conscious effort to make it work for us but I am thrilled that it has paid off this time. I think my issues could have been prevented with better education about bfing, how it works and how it feels.

I have insufficient glandular tissue which means I suffer with a low supply that I was unable to correct with all the normal methods. I also had undiagnosed graves disease witch is an overactive thyroid. My story has been posted in the feeding difficulty debrief section but basically, given I had to comp feed with formula I had severe breast refusal I was unable to continue to do both. I was able to express 2 small feeds to bottle feed my son but he was so unsettled due to reflux that I was unable to sit on the pump 7 times a day just to get 240mls. I would be very interested in hearing how Chinease Medicine may improve my situation next time as I am extreamly passionate about breastfeeding and would give anything to have a succesful feeding journey next time around. I also saw severall LC's and the GP who all told me it just wasn't working and perhaps trying to "force" him to feed was detrimental to him and me. It is one of those problems that is rare and difficult to diagnose. None of them picked up on it but I have since spoken to another LC who feels this was the case for me due to certain characteristics I have comboned with the issues I encountered whilst breastfeeding. I feel that some people do in fact have a choice whether to FF but I feel that I absouloutly did not have a choice, the simple fact is my son was malnourised and would have died if I didn't comp feed him.

I have written this in response to a comment over at FB:
BellyBelly Kelly | Facebook

Please don't think I am trying to "pathologise" anyone or anything, nor somehow trivialise or ridicule womens' choices in regards to infant feeding.

unfortunately I could not read the whole article that was linked to (Leaving Facebook... | Facebook), as I don't have subscription rights to Jstor... would have loved to read the whole article. Qing Dynasty was 17th-20th Century. My point about Han Dynasty was that the Chinese have been writing about these kinds of 'conditions' (please note my use of 'scare quote' notation) and how to help mothers and (just as importantly) their dependent infants.

Whilst the influence of Confucianism did make Chinese society and its official structures seemingly paternalistic, it wasn't the only dominant ideology throughout the rich history of this civilisation - Daoism and Buddhism in their various forms have also been hugely influential over Chinese society.

What's more, folk traditions have always been the cornerstone of CM practice. Whilst it has always been males in the spotlight of officialdom, there were always women in the villages and rural settings who used the CM principles of diagnosis and treatment to help their neighbours and loved ones. More often than not, it was this grass roots knowledge that was gathered and formally published within medical canons by the male physicians who were academics (medical schools and colleges were established very early) and usually Court-approved practitioners. Herbal medicine was not controlled, as all indigenous herbs were wild-growing or cultivated locally by farmers. Only imported medicinals in the form of spices/herbs were solely accessed by these academics and Court-approved physicians. A good book to read if you're interested in feminine history of Chinese Medicine is "A Flourishing Yin" (can't remember author).

The "crones and witches" (read: wise women) held the knowledge of what foods, herbs, teas, therapies could help mothers and their babies. But so too did many men in these settings - as they were village folk, they were not formally trained in Confucian ethics, principles, etc. They would have had a 'common/folk' understanding of what Confucian society expected of them, but Confucianism was very much a formal ideology that was taught in royal colleges, universities, to educate the higher classes destined to work in the Bureaucracy. The common folk did not generally have access to this level of education. But there were still no shortage of physicians - male or female - who worked to heal their neighbours.

The vast amount of medical texts we have today is born from a combination of grass-roots/folk medicine, the recording of clinical experience, and formal study and practice in formal institutions of medicine. What we have today in the form of Tradtional Chinese Medicine (as the 'brand' presented to the world by the PRC) is a syncretisation of ALL of this knowledge. And we haven't touched on the medical knowledge, practice, and ideas from all of Asia, where this paradigm of health and healing were practised. Hence why many practitioners and writers refer to East-Asian Medicine, Oriental Medicine, or simply Chinese medicine (to distinguish it from the official, practice of TCM. in fact, one could argue there is nothing 'traditional' about TCM, as it is a highly sanitised and Confucian mish-mash of the entire spectrum of health & healing traditions and practcies in Eastern Asia.

CM approaches to the inability to bf is always centred around finding methods/solutions to help mums and bubs survive and thrive in the face of such conditions. Do we assume companies like Nestle are being paternalistic in their production and marketing of formula - or are they offering a solution to all those mums out there unable to bf? As many mums have told their stories on this forum, it is clear that in these cases Formula was a viable option available to them - for many CM was not available, let alone an option.

As I finish up my clinical studies and head out into the big wide world, I want to know how I can best be of service to the community in this regard. I have no desire to control women, children, or demand obeisance to my opinions - professional or otherwise. I have some knowledge and some tools that may be of assistance in these situations. If they work, then I want families to know about it, and I would love the opportunity to help out.

In the stories I have read thus far - and thank you so much for sharing them here (this is a great forum to open up honestly about such matters) - it seems that a lot of the issues have been centred around support, stress, expectations, and access to information and/or services. I don't think this is news to anyone who frequents this forum. And to be fair I think everyone offers their knowledge, assistance, and treatments in good faith. I think there are always a variety of factors behind the inability to bf: the state of the mum, of the baby, of the support-systems, the knowledge/experience of practitioners, etc.

I instigated this conversation because I was curious to hear womens' own experiences, to ascertain whether a) I can help; and b) if I have that capacity, then how best to.

Please don't end the discussion here. Please continue to share your stories. I am genuinely reading and learning. I appreciate it, and can feel some of the hurt that exists there. i don't feel its helpful to criticise or accuse you women - you have done what anyone would do, and that is do your best at seeing the survival of your children. I applaud you!:clap:

My 6 bubbas have all been b'fed, in thier own way... but 2 were probmatic....

#2 fed like a champ, but at 3 months weighed less then at birth... she was diagnosed, after we spent 3 days in hossy, as taking a full feed, but not digesting any of it, meaning they thought she literally wee'd/poo'd it straight out....app around 5% of babies can have this...
I REFUSED to stop b/feeding, so I was given a thickening formual on script, and gave her one bottle of that a day. I struggled but fed her till 1, I flately refused to give up, and would of tried anything.


#5 was a cleft lip/palate bub, and had no suction whatsoever. I again was determined he would get EBM... I ended up expressing for 10 months, my son having nothing bar breastmilk for 8 of those months... yes, I am proud of myself, and not ashamed to say it, LOL. But I did need medication to keep the supply up, which was part of the reason I stopped expressing. I didn't want him having the drugs in his system too long either....
I had tried a lot of natural ways to boost my supply, with little success...... Had I known about more ways to boost/ help naturally, I would DEFINATLY tried them... I might have expressed for longer too!!!!

ETA.. but I have to agree with many of the ladies here... I got NO help in this.. I was told in both cases to take them of the breast and use formula.... I had no support and was often asked why I bothered....Was I not so pig headed, and without my BB support, it could of been very different....

I'm an interloper here, but reading out of interest in the subject. I just want to say thank you to those who've told their stories. I know so often it seems like a story of failure, but I think these stories also resound with dedication and love :hug:
I know sometimes it just can't be, but I'm really, deeply saddened by the way mothers are failed again and again, over and over when they can't get support to do something as fundamental as feed their babies.

I had a breast reduction at 17 and another at 22. Obviously, I had a great deal of breast tissue removed. However, the surgeon who performed the second surgery stated that my milk ducts appeared intact and as I am STILL a D cup he hypothesized that I had enough breast tissue for an adequate supply. I don't know how good his theory is and I have not been able to confirm it or prove it wrong in any literature. My intention was to try to breast feed my babies.

After I gave birth to my DD she was placed on my breast for her first feed. She was small and had a poor sucking reflex. Her next feed, the midwife took one look at my scars and handed me a bottle of formula saying 'here, love, you'll need this'. Every midwife had a different opinion of whether I should try to breast feed or not, some simply refused to assist me as there was 'no point'. Ultimately, I left hospital thoroughly confused and ended up FF my baby. She is now 7, healthy and well.

Whilst I was pregnant with DS I educated myself on BF after reduction. I found a fabulous book (BF after reduction: Defining your own success) which I took to hospital with me and handed to any midwife who told me there was 'no point' attempting to BF. When my DS was 2 weeks old my supply could no longer keep up to his demand; he was unsettled, constantly on the breast where he showed frustration and his weight gain slowed markedly (a good friend is a MCHN and we weighed him every two days to ensure he was gaining weight). The issue was complicated by the fact that my son has serious renal problems and his urologist had made it clear that whilst he was very happy for me to attempt to BF it was vitally important that my son receive adequate fluids (be it breast milk or formula). I started comp-feeding at two weeks and continued BF to my goal of 12 weeks. My supply never increased markedly and the most I could ever express was about 15mls from each breast. I have never experienced 'let down'.

I did use herbs to try to increase my supply, from memory Fenugreek and something else and some sort of vile tasting tea??

I am pregnant again and intending to attempt BF with this baby. Research indicates that a mother who BF after reduction surgery will most likely have increased success with each subsequent baby due to recannalisation of the milk ducts. My GP has recommended that I try Motilium this time to increase my supply (I need to give this more research but I'm certainly open to the idea at this time). I would also take herbs again and even drink the tea!! I would be happy to give CM a go, although I don't know much about it and wouldn't know how to find a good practioner. I am realistic about my likely ability to BF without complementary FF - it probably won't happen. I believe that I am being realistic and to think that I will BF without comp feeding would be setting myself up for 'failure'. I am 'defining my own success' by setting goals which I believe are achievable for ME.

I do find that some women, and the occasional man, are judgmental about my inability to BF. I have been told that I 'just didn't try hard enough', that I am a 'bad mother', that I won't bond with my baby and one gem who told me that I was 'incredibly selfish' to have breast reduction surgery before I had my family. And as much as I would like to let all those things roll off my back without affecting me, the truth is that those comments make me feel sad, inadequate, frustrated and angry.