Hmmm what do you think? Rabbi Shmuley and bfing

Firstly I wasn't really sure where to put this!? It could go in relationships or breastfeeding!

I just saw this on Elizabeth Pantley's face book page. She was up in arms about
it.
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Can Breast-Feeding Hurt Your Marriage? Rabbi Shmuley Boteach Thinks So in His New Book, 'Kosher Adultery'- Beliefnet.com
(Mods I hope the links are ok)

So I don't know a lot about Rabbi Shmuley except he has a show on foxtel that I've only ever seen ads for and this really dissapoints me. Having a child can effect your marriage period! It doesn't have to be breast feeding that effects intamicy in a marriage. I don't feel feeding (or Expressing in my case) meant I put my husband second. Yes my DD was my first priority but I think, especially in the first year that's how it should be but that didn't mean my DH was not really really important also.

It saddens me this sentiment is still out there.

ETA this article is from 2006 so not new. Just thought Id add that and apparently after a huge amount of backlash he wrote another reponse. Will try and find that.

I personally think that if breast feeding is hurting your marriage, you're probably in the wrong relationship! ...I haven't read the article you're referring to though, I will have a read, but that is my first thought!

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I am surprised that when scientists discuss all the benefits of breast-feeding, they neglect its most negative consequence. If breast-feeding gets in the way of the marriage—if it means that a husband and wife never go out on dates, or that the mother is so tired from always waking up with the baby that she has no energy to ever be intimate with her husband—the child will probably end up worse off, however many colds or bouts with diarrhea he now avoids.

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This would happen whether you breastfeed or bottlefeed, you would be up for longer if you also had to prepare a bottle.

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In the end, there are two effects of breast-feeding that we often refuse to acknowledge. One is the de-eroticization of a woman's body, as her husband witnesses one of the most attractive parts of her body serving a utilitarian rather than romantic purpose. This is not to say that breast-feeding isn't sexy. Indeed, the maternal dimension is a central part of womanliness. But public breast-feeding is profoundly de-eroticizing, and I believe that wives should cover up, even when they nurse their babies in their husband's presence.

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Is he serious? A number of my friends have talked about their partners helping them in the early days to get the right attachment, and how couples can be brought together thinking how cool it is that a woman can make stuff to feed their baby, and how proud they both can be.

OM*G ok I just read the article and I'm sorry but Rabbi Shmuley IMHO is a TOOL!

With comments like "In the end, there are two effects of breast-feeding that we often refuse to acknowledge. One is the de-eroticization of a woman's body, as her husband witnesses one of the most attractive parts of her body serving a utilitarian rather than romantic purpose."

And

"This is not to say that breast-feeding should not be practiced. It is instead to say that it should always remain subordinate to the romantic and passionate needs of a marriage."

Ah..NO, I'm sorry but my baby's nutritional needs are definitely first.

And another of many

"Let me be clear. I agree that breast-feeding is usually the best thing for a baby. But the principal form of marital breakdown in our time is a loss of erotic desire between husband and wife, and if couples find that breast-feeding is adding to a sense of alienation, there is always the bottle."

If a man has issue and feels alienated by his wife using her breasts to feed their baby, which I'm pretty sure is what they are there for, then I think he probably needs to seek help for his insecurities, which are actually the problem in a relationship like this, not breast feeding.

Grrr! Sadly people probably listen to this man and take his advice. I think he has some "issues" of his own that need some attention.

I wonder if his wife breastfed? (I think he has a wife and kids?) There was a great reply on Elizabeth's page quoting all sorts of Jewish documentation where breastfeeding is mentioned and encouraged. I still haven't found his second artcile but really how much back pedalling can he do after that?!

rofl! Why is dumb s*** like this even published! If your marriage is failing.....its NOT bf! And if your DH blames the bf, leave the fool!

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One is the de-eroticization of a woman's body, as her husband witnesses one of the most attractive parts of her body serving a utilitarian rather than romantic purpose.

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Ummmm... does this mean a wife and husband should never go to the toilet in front of each other either? Or should her husband not be at the birth, since I'm guessing vaginal birth is somewhat less than romantic to watch. *GASP* How will he ever want to have sex with her again???!

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Ummmm... does this mean a wife and husband should never go to the toilet in front of each other either? Or should her husband not be at the birth, since I'm guessing vaginal birth is somewhat less than romantic to watch. *GASP* How will he ever want to have sex with her again???!

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Yes Jennifer13, he recommended that husbands not see the birth, well not the vagina at least, same thing, not erotic:rolleyes:

Aw so our bodies are just here to please a man, sexually! What a freak!

What about those men, dare I say it, who like anal???? bahahahaha :redface: Clearly most men dont think to much about it lol

I had no idea men were such fragile creatures that the mere sight of a body part performing its intended function would be enough to put them off for life. :o

If love and desire are so affected by our brain and psychology you would think the true deep and lasting love would overcome the relatively small 'obstacle' of viewing bfing and birth. What happens when the couple are older and no longer as physically attractive? Or if one partner has to undergo physically altering surgery or health challenges? To me it flies in the face of the kind of love we are trying to create to suggest that your partner is so superficial!

I'd be interested to get a few dads in here to hear what they have to say. I know that my DH is proud of my ability to feed our boys and is emotionally intelligent enough to separate breasfeeding and the breasts role in intimacy. Sheesh, I would like to think most men can.
I think that the early stages of feeding a baby (bf and/or bottle) can be a bit of a drain (mostly on the mother) but i have to agree with you willow - if breastfeeding is hurting your marriage, then I think you're in the wrong relationship.

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So I don't know a lot about Rabbi Shmuley except he has a show on foxtel that I've only ever seen ads for and this really dissapoints me. Having a child can effect your marriage period! It doesn't have to be breast feeding that effects intamicy in a marriage. I don't feel feeding (or Expressing in my case) meant I put my husband second. Yes my DD was my first priority but I think, especially in the first year that's how it should be but that didn't mean my DH was not really really important also.

It saddens me this sentiment is still out there.

ETA this article is from 2006 so not new. Just thought Id add that and apparently after a huge amount of backlash he wrote another reponse. Will try and find that.

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this is just typical of the male chauvanists idea that women were put on this earth to please men. Its especially dissapointing coming from a man who proports to teach people about God...that is what i find hard to concieve.


And if there are men out there who become jealous of seeing their own babies feeding from the breast, they need to go see a psychologist. I think the rabbis words are very destructive...have a read of this snipet

"I told the mother that in being so devoted to her son, she had committed the cardinal sin of marriage, which is to put someone else before her spouse, even if that someone is your child. Furthermore, I said, her obsession had turned one of her most attractive body parts into a feeding station, an attractive cafeteria rather than a scintillating piece of flesh.
In my book "Kosher Adultery," I make the point that infidelity is primarily a sin of omission rather than commission. It is not the bad thing you do that destroys a marriage, but all the good that you fail to do, preoccupied as you are with a sinful relationship that diverts your attention away from your spouse."

That is the most backward piece of thinking i've heard in a long while. To equate the caring of your child with a 'sinful relationship diverting your attention away from your spouse' is the most destructive notion i've ever heard.

I found this thread

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...stfeeding.html

when looking for something else.

discusses a different angle on the jewish view on breastfeeding.

Thanks Kate!

From that thread:

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• The Mishna (Ketubot 59b) instructs us that breastfeeding her baby is a woman’s obligation toward her husband, *so much so that other household functions take lower priority during this time.

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So perhaps Rabbi Shmuley should be instructing husbands to support their wives and make sure that husbands pick up 'other household functions', or at least accept their 'needs' come second for a little while! Seriously, though, since when did a mature adult father and husband not understand that his role has now changed with a new baby? Rabbi Shmuley really underestimates the abilities and maturity of men.

Well... My DH has witnessed 3 vaginal births, cracked bleeding nipples, over 2 years altogether so far of BFing, hemeroids (sp?), stretch marks, CM, vaginal bleeding & a million other unnattractive things about my body! & the poor bugger still wants it! Lol, I feel for this Rabbi & especially for his wife, since he is very obviously so vein!!
I'm assuming he is absolutely perfect!?

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Rabbi Shmuley really underestimates the abilities and maturity of men.

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A reflection of himself really, not all men.

As much as he is a Rabbi, he is not considered mainstream at all in orthodox Judaism, and pretty much all of us ignore what he has to say.

In regards to men being at birth, under Jewish law a man is forbidden to look there, so although my DH was in the room (some women chose not to have their husbands there at all), he stood by my head and faced the wall, so he could see me and my face and give me encouragement, as that is the only dispensation for a man being there under Jewish law - if the woman wants it/needs it, he must be there, but not if it just for him.

If you want any clarity about how it is different when an orthodox Jewess gives birth, you can ask Kelly as she as an 'outsider' has been at 2 of mine... i don't know, they seem normal to me, so I don't know how other people do it that differently (I mean, they come out the same way whether you are Jewish or not haha!)

But that is why in our culture almost all women have a doula, private midwife or their mothers/sisters there, as it is a time for a woman and what she wants, not at all about the husband (which is good, because if DH told me that day was anything about him (other than emotionally obviously, because he became a parent and his life changed also), but physical needs etc, I might have had to kill him...)

Interestingly enough, when we had our temple 2000 years ago and animal sacrifices were bought, women post childbirth bought 2 birds, which represent chatter (as birds chatter), which was the sin offering bought when you sinned through your mouth, because women say things in childbirth they don't truly mean "i hate you, we are never having children again, i don't want this baby etc etc", things you don't mean

I wrote that article about the true Jewish perspective on b/feeding as I had seen his article on a Jewish forum about parenting/childbirth (it didn't go down well), so don't think he speaks for us all.

But in his defense, and i'm not saying don't b/f, be it about everything in your marriage, there is some truth in what he was trying to allude to - there is something about putting ourselves out there and working on giving to the other (and they should give to you and not think about themselves in return, nothing about only females), and that keeping your marriage/partnership strong during those difficult first years of a babies life when you are just oh so tired constantly is important. If you focus solely on your baby, or use looking after your baby (or your job) as an excuse to neglect working on your marriage, in the end it won't be great for everyone.

Marriage isn't easy and it takes constant work (as i continually find out!)

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Ummmm... does this mean a wife and husband should never go to the toilet in front of each other either?

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Breastfeeding and the Rabbi aside I prefer a closed door. That's just me :p

This is the response Rabbi Shmuley wrote to the backlash he received.

Rabbi Shmuley - Articles

Well, in that article he also attacks co-sleeping, so I'm guessing he doesn't have a lot attachment parents as fans. ;)

The article itself, and the vast majority of the logic he puts forward, is just ridiculous. That being said though, I can see what he's getting at right down at the core - that men are really just big fat babies and often feel neglected when a new baby arrives because mum shifts her focus from husband to child. I agree with that, but tbh, that's the husband's problem to work through and blaming the child or a nursing relationship (or co-sleeping, or the mother for 'making' a husband witness a vaginal delivery etc) doesn't solve a thing, but shifts resentment and insecurities from one person to another.

FWIW I agree with all of you - caring for our children IS and SHOULD ALWAYS BE our first and foremost priority. But I see *some* relationships where poor dad's been relegated to status of 'money-making sperm donor' and mum puts every ounce of everything she has into her kids, and poor dad gets nada. Which I think is a shame, and maybe says something about the relationship not being perfect long before kids came along and 'ruined' it all, kwim? Marriages do take a lot of work, and I think Shmuley probably had the right idea at heart, but it got lost along the way amongst his anti-BFing argument ;) Love your partners, too, ladies!! After all, they were the ones who provided half the resources to create the gorgeous kid(s) you invest so much in :D

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I personally think that if breast feeding is hurting your marriage, you're probably in the wrong relationship!

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I think Willow's comment sums up the whole topic! Take that Shmuley!!!! :bfeedblue:

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Furthermore, I said, her obsession had turned one of her most attractive body parts into a feeding station, an attractive cafeteria rather than a scintillating piece of flesh.

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So I read to about here, and decided that whatever he has to say is pretty much wasted space in my brain.

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So I read to about here, and decided that whatever he has to say is pretty much wasted space in my brain.

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yep I agree.... and I haven't even read his whole article LOL he seems like a narrow-minded loser to me.

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But in his defense, and i'm not saying don't b/f, be it about everything in your marriage, there is some truth in what he was trying to allude to - there is something about putting ourselves out there and working on giving to the other (and they should give to you and not think about themselves in return, nothing about only females), and that keeping your marriage/partnership strong during those difficult first years of a babies life when you are just oh so tired constantly is important. If you focus solely on your baby, or use looking after your baby (or your job) as an excuse to neglect working on your marriage, in the end it won't be great for everyone.

Marriage isn't easy and it takes constant work (as i continually find out!)

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this is very true - and if the Rabbi had used his position to say this without alienating everyone, he might have actually had some valid points

i agree that you need to work hard at keeping your relationship on track - but the basis of your relationship NEEDS to be about more than the physical - if it's not, then your relationship is bound to fail when life - be it children, age, illness or other stress - catches up with you.

FWIW, i told DH about this article - he rolled his eyes, said some "not so kind" things about the author, and said anyone who thinks that bf or childbirth makes their partner less attractive they have issues

I was thinking about this article yesterday, and wondering what DH's thoughts on this issue would be. He has never said anything bad about b/f, and like someone mentioned, he was helping me attach DD in the beginning when I was struggling.

So I asked him flat out 'What do u think of me b/f?' He replies 'I dont know, its natural'. So then I ask 'Does it turn you off me?' Replies 'No, you're a mum. Why are you asking all of these questions?' So I tell him there was an article written that basically says b/f can ruin marriages. And his reply 'Not ours'. Awww, take that Rabbi Shmuley. And that is coming from a mans man too!

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But when a mother gives her breasts to her son and takes them away from her husband, the effect on the marriage can feel the same.

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Hmmm... I thought they were my breasts... did I lose them to my husband when I got married? Does everybody in the family have rights to them but me? Nope, my breasts and I will decide where they go, thanks.

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One is the de-eroticization of a woman's body, as her husband witnesses one of the most attractive parts of her body serving a utilitarian rather than romantic purpose. This is not to say that

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WTF :shakehead: I have said it before & I will say it again....that is what breasts are for!!!! I am pretty sure they were not put solely or even MOSTLY for the sexual gratification of men. I am sure that their primary purpose is, and always has been to feed babies.

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But the principal form of marital breakdown in our time is a loss of erotic desire between husband and wife, and if couples find that breast-feeding is adding to a sense of alienation, there is always the bottle.

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this makes me wonder what the advice would have been in times when there was no bottle?

I actually get his point about marriages suffering. I have no doubt that my husband would consider himself pretty hard done by ATM, our sexlife is pretty sparse and certainly my expressing doesn't help in terms of how much time we get together. BUT it's not the only thing affecting it - there is work, the kids, the housework, general baby stuff regardless of how they are fed.
It's a tough time for any relationship, again, regardless of how a baby is fed.
We are lucky - we have been there, done that & DH keeps telling me it's ok, he knows it will pass. But hey - he's talking about the fact that we rarely get to 'connect' these days - not that all of a sudden my breasts are on someone else's menu :rolleyes:

My big issue here is that he doesn't focus much on the time factor but that it 'de-eroticises' a womans body. Which is so offensive to me as a woman, and a mother.

My DH made a deal with our bub, and they pinky swore on it. She has complete access to my breasts but had to agree to be nice and not hurt them for Mum. They also made a pinky swear about the two of them hiding out in the shed 'when Mum is grumpy'. Sometimes i will be feeding, and DH has his head nice and close. At first i was wondering what he was looking at, and was going to cover myself more- until i saw the look on his face, and it was just a look of love for both of us, so gorgeous.