Your temple...when do we stop and draw the line?

Taken from a recent post I did in a related thread

When do we as woman then stop having rights? Do we have no rights to abortions full stop then? No rights to say what we can and cant do with out bodies?

We fight so strongly for our 'rights' to do things that are unnatural or not naturally happening to our bodies eg - botox, plastic surgery, stiches in our wombs to stop m/c, IVF, sterile clips, why can we take away that choice that a woman has. It is HER body and whilst I dont personally agree with what she did its her temple that she is treating. Only she has the right to say what is right for her.

Do we have the right to judge a woman for the choices she makes for herself or her body? Is there a magic line in the sand drawn that says ' dont step here'?

After recent avents in my IRL world Ive taken more of a step back and learnt to listen with my ears and eyes and take things in...not pass judgement and yes offer support even if it is against the grain and distast of others. I find it quiet unnurturing of others to take it to heart that I dance to the same beat...we should learn and feed of each other to grow and support everyone we can.

After all we're all here with the same purpose in life...to breath

Not going to enter the debate with my opinions and thoghts, but I think it gets messy because it stops becoming solely about her body, and it starts involving another. There are some up in arms about the right to abortion, but also protest a man who is not liable for the death of a fetus in the womb. Where is the line? I'm not going to say. Its a sticky sticky sticky topic...

I absolutely agree with you, Maz. I feel that I'm entitled to an *opinion* on a person's actions, but if I believe that opinion may be unnecessarily judgmental, I just keep it quietly to myself and think, 'I would do it differently'. And of course, I expect that others will at least respect my decisions, if they can't agree with them.
Sure, I get worked up in my own mind about certain things, sometimes. This is WRONG, that is WRONG, I really hate that X can do A, B and C. I JUST DON'T AGREE WITH IT AND I THINK IT'S C***. But I feel that I'm allowed to have my own opinion, and if I'm not airing it (or at least not airing it in a hurtful or cruel way) then I'm not really hurting anybody.

I mean, I don't expect all of us to agree with each other 100% of the time, or agree with the actions of another person and be in perfect harmony. God, how BORING. But, I feel I have just as much right as anybody to have complete autonomy over myself and would be loath to see, for example, laws introduced that stop me doing something I should have every right to do, just because some other people don't agree with my decision and would prefer to see nobody do it, kwim?

I want to share my thoughts & views, but while I might read, I think it will be too emotional reguarding the particular subject for me.

We as women & mothers fight for so many rights, & we are judged so harshly for the mistakes & decisions we make. We are the ones who have to live with those actions. Be it tomorrow, or in 10 years time. We have to live with that choice.

Leasha, you just took the words out of my mouth. Without meaning to sound crude, if a person is adult enough to open their legs and allow themselves to become pregnant, she is then making choices not only for herself but for another human being and soul.

If this was a simple question regarding our right to sterilization for eg. no argument.

BUT my view is not that black and white. I believe people have the right to error and as such abortion has a place. But when the unborn fetus is a fully formed feeling child that just needs to basically grow - the line has been crossed and I can't understand how that falls under women's rights.

Not to say the potential life of a 6 week fetus is any less - but at least the feelings of pain and death aren't the same as a late termination

It can be so hard not to judge other people - so often it's my first instinct to think something horrid and judgmental about someone. Luckily as I've got older I think (hope) that I've got better at holding my judgment a bit or considering that there may be circumstances about which I'm totally unaware.
No, I don't think we have a right to judge a woman/a human for the choices she makes about her body no matter how distasteful they may be to us.
I think Ben Harper sums up the kind of philosophy I try and live by

:

---

my choice is what I choose to do
and if I'm causing no harm
it shouldn't bother you
your choice is who you choose to be
and if you're causin' no harm
then you're alright with me
if you don't like my fire
then don't come around

---

Of course I don't always succeed ;) but I like to think that I'm getting better.

Is there a line that say's 'don't step here'? Well...... if they're stepping there in white high heels then they've crossed a line and deserve to be severely berated and hated on :p

:

---

Not going to enter the debate with my opinions and thoghts, but I think it gets messy because it stops becoming solely about her body, and it starts involving another. There are some up in arms about the right to abortion, but also protest a man who is not liable for the death of a fetus in the womb. Where is the line? I'm not going to say. Its a sticky sticky sticky topic...

---

I see that as 2 enitrely different views hon. Abortion is the woman taking control of her body and life, a person knowing hurting, killing a woman carrying a child is completely different...its not his body and not her choice.

:

---

Leasha, you just took the words out of my mouth. Without meaning to sound crude, if a person is adult enough to open their legs and allow themselves to become pregnant, she is then making choices not only for herself but for another human being and soul.

---

no she is still making a choice for herself in enjoying the pleasures of sex. I thought we were out of the woman have no right age and thought that we were permitted to enjoy :whip: a little fun...I agree some level of responsability needs to be taken. You cant tell me everytime you have sex its to procreate.

I dont think its a persons right to judge but its a persons right to have an opinion. Unfortunately abortion has become a hot topic with the increasing rate of unplanned pregnancies.

I think the fact that birth control is either becoming obsolete in being an effective means of avoiding pregnancy/std's or people are just becoming more irresponsible in their choice to not use or not use properly whatever birth control method they choose; doesnt help. The pill has what a 95-99% effectiveness yet every second unplanned baby announcement I hear lately in my personal life is a 'my birth control failed' story. Cant honestly be THAT high a percentage of women who birth control does not work for surely? Funnily enough its rarely ever related to IUDs or implants. Just the pill/depo shot/condoms. Which becomes less effective through user-error. Or I get told about a second unplanned pregnancy due to birth control failure; then find out they used the same birth control that apparently didnt work the first time? I still fail to understand that logic.

Sure my body is my temple and its mine to do what I will with; but when its potentially involving a new life, it becomes more than just a "Its mine and I'll do what I want with it" tanty. Maybe my archaic view of children being an extremely monumental decision/part of a persons life and therefore needs a great amount of thought into the who/what/when/where/why's of it all is just out-dated and soooooooooo uncool. I dont judge a person on it because that would eliminate some very close friends of mine; in the end I dont have to live it, they do. If your having sex, you have to consider the outcome if you end up getting pregnant; if you feel you arent in a good place to have a baby then be responsible. If you are one of the few birth control doesnt work for then thats just super unlucky. If your ok with a happy surprise then go for your life.

I used to be very anti abortion. Until I grew up a bit, had kids of my own, read a few educating threads and viewpoints on BB. Now I am pro-choice to a point. Whilst I wouldnt have an abortion and I dont believe in the misuse of abortion; I do believe that sometimes its the best outcome for both the woman and the baby. There are too many struggling parents and children already without forcing people to add to them. Its not fair and equally as irresponsible.

I just cannot fathom repeated mistakes and passing the buck of responsibility.

I think that similar to my stance on csections, abortion should be there for a small amount of cases NOT as a 'norm' to eshew having the forethought to avoid possible consequences iykiwm? These days your lucky if pregnancy is the only thing that results from unprotected sex, Id be more concerned about the plethora of more sinister things you can end up with.

:

---

no she is still making a choice for herself in enjoying the pleasures of sex. I thought we were out of the woman have no right age and thought that we were permitted to enjoy a little fun...I agree some level of responsability needs to be taken. You cant tell me everytime you have sex its to procreate.

---

Maz I respectfully disagree. If you have sex, you could possibly get pregnant, protection or not. Nothing is obviously ever 100% foolproof so on the off chance your the unlucky .1% birth control doesnt work for you'd wanna have thought about what you'd do in that situation. The only surefire way to not play with fire is to roll over and play dead ;)

I am glad you began this thread as a member - a little on edge as a moderator! :lol: (I am imagining my fellow mods going: "great idea that one'... :wall: :lol:)

Well I don't have the answers and I haven't really thought through this completely but I'd like to unpack it some... :think:

So, I don't know about you but I have had sex unplanned in "the heat of the moment" & I also conceived a pregnancy. I was in a relationship with someone but I did not want a child in that relationship/situation so I chose to terminate that pregnancy. it was a difficult time but the decision has not been regretted. Even when I lost my much planned babies. There was remorse, wistful wonderings but intellectually and emotionally I felt sure that decision was right & I still do... It was right for me at that time & stage of my life.

When does the decision become nolonger about the right of the Woman carrying the pregnancy? Is it at conception as some would say? Or is it at viability (thus the 24 week cut off)? When has the father got the right to say: "this is about my fetus - a fetus I have a right to have born?"...

I'm not sure. As a feminist I believe my body is mine. I can see and understand the right of a father - but then I consider that it is a "risk" if you like of sexual intercourse that a pregnancy might occur and that pregnancy needs a uterus & if I"m a bloke I haven't got those bits so my fathering perhaps begins at birth? mmmm not sure?

As a humanist I also believe in the rights of the fetus.

As a spiritual being I also believe that we all have Karma & it is my firm belief that for some that Karma is to stay a short while & leave indellible footprints and for others it's to stay a long while and perhaps trash the joint! :rofl:

Now, holding the spiritual beliefs I do I personally (for my own body) would not now choose to terminate a pregnancy. However, for me it gets a bit spiritually murky as I conversely don't believe a soul that was "meant" to be interrupted in pregnancy would be incarnated now as my child due to that belief I now have... (if I've lost you ask away & bear in mind I am pondering as I write!)

I also would not stand in judgement that YOUR decision is right or wrong. Because that's your journey and not my own...

Aaaaaah think some more hey????

I really shouldn't have read either of these threads I think, it's getting me so upset. But I have, and I want to present the opinion that is burning me from the inside, just to present another view - I do sincerely apologise to anyone who disagrees with my view, and also..

I recognise and fully understand that my view is predominantly religion based, and I do not now, nor will I ever tell a woman she was wrong to make whatever decision she made - I recognise that very rarely are these decisions made in haste without due consideration and heartache.

Having said that - when does a baby get rights? When a woman has sex, it is with the knowledge that sex causes pregnancy, unless there is a mitigating factor, such as birth control or infertility. Therefore, IMHO, when a woman has sex and falls pregnant, why is it the baby's fault? Why does the baby have to die because the woman wanted a fun night out without consequences? We try to teach our children that there are always consequences to their actions, but the ability to have an abortion because you're not ready to have a baby flies in the face of that teaching. So no, sex isn't always JUST for procreation, but those engaging in it need to be mature enough to realise that there can be life changing consequences. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time!

I hafta say Leasha, I agree with you 112% - it gets messy when there is another life involved. I understand the view that its a woman's body and no-one else should make the decision - but what about the body inside her? What makes them any less deserving of that basic right?

I totally get where you are coming from Berenice... :hug: Totally & I too question when does the right of the fetus come in? I dom't know the answer to that.
I have told my own daughter (14) that sex shouldn't be an option unless you are prepared that the consequence can be pregnancy... It's a tough one & I do get your point.

Imma gonna open a can of worms and ask:

Do you think that government benefits and a lax-er attitude towards single parenting has made people a bit less responsible in avoiding pregnancy?

I can only assume that if I were a teenager 50yrs ago, I would most definately have been thinking hard about the choices I made regarding unprotected sex if I knew it was not an easy option to keep the baby or to have an abortion. Obviously it still happened but the outcomes were tougher. These days it 'seems' like it isnt a big deal to have an unplanned baby as a teenager/single woman because there is help.

Nowdays you have an 'out' if you need it or 'aid' if you need it depending on your choice. Takes away a bit of the sting until reality sets in, sometimes not until the choice has been made and executed :shakehead:

:

---

As a spiritual being I also believe that we all have Karma & it is my firm belief that for some that Karma is to stay a short while & leave indellible footprints and for others it's to stay a long while and perhaps trash the joint!

Now, holding the spiritual beliefs I do I personally (for my own body) would not now choose to terminate a pregnancy. However, for me it gets a bit spiritually murky as I conversely don't believe a soul that was "meant" to be interrupted in pregnancy would be incarnated now as my child due to that belief I now have... (if I've lost you ask away & bear in mind I am pondering as I write!)

---

I totally understand this...and agree.
Everything happens exactly as and when it is supposed to.
And if you subscribe to the view that children 'choose' their parents, then you must concede that this happens for a reason. Personally I believe I am chosed because I have certain experience or life lessons to teach, and vice versa.
If these babies chose this incarnation, then that was their purpose for this particualr woman. Their purpose was not necessarily to be born, but rather to imprint the lesson on her life. That is her cross to bear.

:

---

, but I think it gets messy because it stops becoming solely about her body, and it starts involving another.

---

:yeahthat:

I will also say that it is possible to dislike an action, but still have respect for a person & their choices.
Whether or not I would choose to terminate a pregnancy - BUT neither would I judge another woman for doing so - her shoes, her journey, etc.

My opinions on the action don't necessarily impact on my opinion of the person. Does that make sense?

And in regards to the other thread - I think there comes a point where the pregnancy is advance enough that you are talking about another person. At that point, it's not just about the woman anymore.

Abortions were not legalised up to 24 weeks for women however young or old to have up to 24 weeks to decide if they wanted to have a baby or not. There becomes a time when its not about womens rights but the rights of the life inside her.
Abortions were legalised so women that were not mentally capable, medically well or that had a sick baby growing inside them had the option to make the heartbreaking decision to end their pregnancy.

It was not legalised as a form of birth control or so people would stop passing judgement on the women who sort to make that choice for themselves.

I believe women have a choice up until a certain point. Then I say "Suck It Up" the time to make a choice has passed. :)

This is a subject that I am quite torn on because it encompasses so much.

On judging on others, I think it is human nature to do so, but I try and make a conscious effort not to do so, because I think until you have walked in the shoes of another, you have no right to pass comment about how they choose to live their life. I am a very firm believer in what ever works for you, just because what is right for me isn't right for you doesn't mean it is wrong- and I get so angry when others judge and attack others, especially women against other women, because they have made decisions for their lives and lives of their families, and get torn down and attacked because it doesnt sit well with the view of someone else. When is it that as a community of women we are going to applaud our fellow wives and mothers, for doing what they can to give the best life for their family, even if it isn't what you would choose for yours. Is it that we are so scared of being judged for how we live ours, that we attack to protect our own beliefs, rather than feel comfortable enough in our decisions to say- it's ok, I did what I thought was best at the time?

On the topic of abortion- certainly a murky topic. I have a few thoughts, I agree that it shouldn't be a form of birth control- like many say if we are responsible enough to have sex, then yes we are responsible enough for the consequences, like others say sometimes in the heat of the moment things happen, I am currently carrying a heat of the moment baby, but I am a happily married, financially secure wife and mother, I wouldn't have dreamt of having an abortion this time- however I can't say the same if circumstances were different, because I am not in different circumstances.

I do agree with others about the rights of the child- i honestly and whole heartedly do, but the rights of a child go beyond conception and birth, the rights of a child go right through until they are old enough to take responsibility of their own lives. So if a women falls pregnant in a violent or abusive relationship, or in other circumstances that might effect the life of the child, then I think if she has an abortion she is still protecting the rights of that child. I have seen some children, especially in the last 6 months or so, that have been subjected to some horrors, that no human being should have to endure- especially not a young child, and how badly it has effected them. And while I am not saying that each of those mothers should have had an abortion, what I am saying, is that if a mother makes a choice for her unborn child by having an abortion if she is in that situation, I think she is still protecting the rights of that child.
So no it is not a black and white case, it is not always about right now, and sometimes it is about trusting women enough to know just what is right for them.

I suppose I've made some choices in my life that people have questioned, choices that were right for me at the time, I looked at the circumstances of my life and made the decision based on that.

I conceived a baby while using condoms AND on the pill. I looked at the options open to me at the time, where my life was, my age, financial circumstances etc and made a choice to not go through with the pregnancy. This was the hardest decision in my life, but I wasn't in a place in my life that I would have been a good mother.

I've also done things to my body and with my body that I know have had people making judgements based on their beliefs/morals etc, not based on mine, not based on my belief system, the set of morals that my parents instilled in me etc

Having supported a number of friends through terminations I would never ever judge another person for making this decision - yes, it is hard, yes they have made mistakes but they have lived with the consequences and it has changed who they are forever. My friend and I were talking just the other day about how she could be the mother of a 20yo and could have been tied to a person she despises for the rest of her life. However, she was able to move on and create a new life for herself based on that decision so whilst it was hard, some good did come from it. Another friend had to terminate based on becoming pregnant after being raped, should she have to carry around that reminder for the rest of her life, what about the child in the future asking about the father and being a product of violence? Again, who am I to judge? I am there to support a friend in her difficult decision.

It isn't a choice I have ever had to make but I have seen 5 friends in very different circumstances - bad relationship, rape, incompatible with life, young, psychologically unstable - make the decision to terminate. Unless you are walking in their shoes you can never fully understand why someone makes the decision that they do. Until I can fully understand I will reserve judgement and hope that I never have to be in that position myself.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything ALi has posted. Especially about children born into awful circumstances. Is it better to abort a pregnancy to spare a child a very sad life, or is it better to go through with that pregnancy, because abortion is so wrong, and bring a child into an abusive awful world? There is so much more in the decision to have an abortion than just whether or not a woman feels like becoming a mother or not.

In the case of the thread this came from, I felt shocked and sickened byt he thought of this girl aborting her 21 weekers, however I would feel equally shocked and sickened if this girl went through with the pregnancy, birthed these babies, then forever regretted them and blamed them for ruining her life, and possibly neglected them. Yes, in a perfect world this girl would have birthed the babies and adopted them out to a loving couple who would cherish the babies forever more, but this is not a perfect world, and chances are that this girl would have kept the babies and not given them the life they deserved.

I think each womans body is her own body to make her own choices about. Each woman has to live with the choices they make for their bodies, we do not.

I dont think I am getting my point across very well at all, so I will leave it at that.

I would simply like to offer:

I believe everyone has the absolute right to an opinion. The really difficult thing, and perhaps the hardest part to get right is knowing when to share it and when to keep it to yourself....

Very well thought out points from everyone so far :) And Krisp - round of applause, hun. Perfectly said.

We all have a direction in which our personal moral compass points, and we all have different lines that we do not cross. Each person's line is in a different spot than the next person's, and while we may agree on some things, I certainly wouldn't expect us all to agree on everything, especially when topics such as this come up. Topics where this is no real 'right' or 'wrong' in a general sense, more just emotions and life experiences colouring our views and leading us to decide FOR OURSELVES where our compass points.

Speaking specifically about abortion, my stance is purely this: BOTTOM LINE, all said and done, I would rather a child never be born, than born into a life of misery and/or grave uncertainty. I know where my 'cut-off' point lies as far as a healthy, but unwanted, pregnancy goes, each of you probably have slightly or vastly different opinions on that. In a perfect world, there'd be no need for it - each conception would result in a healthy, happy child that would either be loved by its parent(s), or gladly given to another family who can provide. Sadly, this doesn't always happen, and really, I'd much rather see a child never know anything other than the warmth and safety of its mother's womb, than be made to suffer in this cruel world.

I can speak only for myself. I can only say what I think *I* would do in a given situation. I can respect the different choices and opinions of others, yet still not agree with those opinions or actions. That is my entitlement, as it is yours to disagree with me.
Abortion is, and always will be, such a hugely touchy subject, given that there are such strong emotions involved. As a woman, and as a mother, my own views are conflicted and I see some situations as 'wrong', but ultimately I stand absolutely by my previous statement. What is 'right' for me may not be 'right' for another and I would never begrudge them the ability to make a choice that is 'right' for them. What is 'right' for someone now may not be given a different set of circumstances, or time, but we can only do what is best for us in that blink of an eye, and then live with that.

I have so much more to say but in all honesty, these few threads have still got me emotionally exhausted ;) Might come back later to talk more if anybody's interested. :)

Kris, you said it perfectly!

I guess that for me it comes down to the fact that the rights of the woman trump those of the fetus. Not that a fetus shouldn't have rights but to me the mother's life is more important than the babies.
Why? Because a woman is a functioning member of her community. A fetus on the other hand is merely potential.

Legally that's the way it's also seen Chloe I believe - at least medically. A mothers life is always supported before that of the fetus that she is gestating. (being factual and not implying any belief on my behalf)

^ I agree with Onyx on that one, tbh.
That being said... if what you say is true about the mother being protected before the fetus (eg if the mother was injured in an accident or something), I wonder if a person could have it on record that they want the fetus saved first, kwim?? Like, if I was pg and near term and got badly hurt somehow, I'd want them to just cut the baby out immediately in order to save him/her and worry about me later, itms. I wonder if I could make a note of that somewhere so that in the event of it happening... I see stories in the news about expectant mothers falling ill or being hurt and their babies dying and I just think, why would you want to wake up from surgery/come out of your coma and find you've lost your precious child? I'd rather they let me die.. :(
Lol sorry for the OT train of thought, I never knew that. And now I'm thinking about it lol :/

Not disagreeing with you Donna, just being devil's advocate....... but what about your daughters? Would sacrificing yourself to save your unborn be fair to them?

I think womens rights are endangered by putting too much emphasis on the rights of the feotus. As Donna said, in a perfect world all babies would be born healthy and to a loving family...but the other circumstances are so fraught and tbh I think abortion is often more humane than adoption (my mum was adopted...)

I think life is sacred yes.. And I wish all people engaged in sex with this in mind...but sex, like so much of our society has become detatched from all meaning. Bodies are now fetishised objects, commodities to be tanned, plucked and analysed...their function seems to be lost to people. Which is also why birthing culture is so heavily medicalised, because people do not see their bodies as temples...as normal functioning beings, rather they see their bodies through another lense, in that case a medical lense.

Whoa...totally off topic at the end there... Basically what onyx said :P

:

---

Not disagreeing with you Donna, just being devil's advocate....... but what about your daughters? Would sacrificing yourself to save your unborn be fair to them?

---

That argument could have it's own 'where do you draw the line' question. What about our 'born' children? Is it fair to a 3yr old to sacrifice yourself so he/she could live? What's the difference between a motherless newborn and a motherless 3yr old? Is one situation fairer than the other? I'd take the bullet for my children any day. I think it's reasonable to have those same instincts/desires to protect the unborn too. I think Glamourcide has raised an interesting point... and I'd have to really think about it myself I think.

As for the OP. I draw my line at conception. A 1cm fetus is no different to a 25cm fetus in my books. I personally don't understand the argument that it's our bodies. The baby's body is not mine. Is the baby's body not also a temple? Just my opinion.. not said in judgement of those who think differently. Just simply don't agree.

Onyx, totally agree.

arcadia, goodness whole heartedly agree with you on the sex stuff. My rule for sex as a teenager was that I was not to have sex unless I felt quite sure that in the event of an unplanned pregnancy the father of baby would stand by me. I didnt have sex til I was 18 and with my DH. If only all people realised what sex is actually designed for, procreation, instead of thinking of it as just a bit of fun. And yeah, people really have forgotten about what our bodies are truly made for...

Far out Arcadia you rock! I yelled YES!!!

It's a difficult one Donna but medically a mother would be saved first. I have been in this position unfortunately. :cry: You might remember Imogen's untimely birth... I was critically ill & deteriorating. The fetus was secondary as I was a live mother of 4 live children. That has to take precedence & (imo) should. However, I negotiated & literally gambled with my life to buy her an extra 24 hours inutero... I wasn't popular with some. It was a heavy time.

I have to say my decision was considered but I still gambled.

As a feminist I find myself advocating for a womans right to choose for her body/soul/spirit/emotions/lifestyle... As a mother I scream save the baby. As a friend I scream save them both. We wear many many hats. I do know though that pointing fingers, indignation, belittling, ridicule for anothers choices doesn't win anything - in fact we all lose.

As a Woman first and foremost before anything else I will advocate a womans right to choose her path. I advocate for considered and informed choices. I also know that what we would do at 16 or 18 is very different to what I would do at 43. Part of that is financial, part is wisdom of years, part is my life journey.

I believe the fetus does have rights but by design I believe the womans body is crucial & housed in that body for now are her thoughts, emotions, Essence/Soul whatever you term it... So therefore she has to make the decision... I support her right to make that decision. :grouphug:

Whilst I understand the premise of the argument, I may just throw in here that sex is NOT only 'designed' for procreation. The human being is wired to use sex for pleasure, as well as procreation...
Just saying.

For me the issue is more the notion that the reverence of the pleasures of sex have been overlooked and defined as something cheap. Sex is one of the deepest forms of worship, respect and joy there is, and that aspect of things has nothing to do with procreation.

:

---

....I find myself advocating for a womans right to choose for her body/soul/spirit/emotions/lifestyle... As a mother I scream save the baby. As a friend I scream save them both. We wear many many hats. I do know though that pointing fingers, indignation, belittling, ridicule for anothers choices doesn't win anything - in fact we all lose.
I also know that what we would do at 16 or 18 is very different to what I would do at 43. Part of that is financial, part is wisdom of years, part is my life journey....

---

Well said :)

WOW, Inanna. That post just completely BLEW my mind, I'm not even kidding. Everything I have swirling around in my head, written down so well by you. Thank you :)

:

---

Not disagreeing with you Donna, just being devil's advocate....... but what about your daughters? Would sacrificing yourself to save your unborn be fair to them?

---

Oh, I totally get what you mean. But truly, I have trouble functioning on even a basic level if the butcher runs out of a certain cut of meat I want or it's rained for three days straight and I can't do my laundry, so I really don't know that my daughters would be missing out if I sacrificed myself to save another child - I honestly doubt I'd be any bleeding good to them as a parent if it came down to that and I lost a child, kwim? In all honesty, I hear from BBers who have lost children, lost partners, lost loved ones, and think to myself, 'HOW are you even still breathing?! HOW do you get out of bed and put on that mummy hat and make your kids' lives okay when yours has just been thrown to the ground, stomped all over and shattered into millions of tiny slivers that cannot ever be put back together?' I really do. I am in absolute awe of them.

I think Inanna truly hit the nail on the head with her extremely well-worded post. I think I may have tried to say something similar in either this thread or another, but it came out all wrong, typical of me ;) I agree - we wear so many hats, nothing in this world is black and white and there are different strings of our hearts, driven by different forces, pulling in opposite directions when subjects like this come up.
Of course ultimately I agree that the rights of a living, breathing, thinking, feeling and functioning woman should come before that of a life that is only at this stage a 'potential' life (even past the point of 'viability', tbh), but it's always going to be a very murky subject. I can only pray to whoever that I'm never put into those shoes and that my stance will be forever based on theoretical or second-hand experience ;)

Lime, you also make a very valid point, which I will return to discuss later on... I've been craving McDonald's for two weeks now and I'm off to ask DH if I can hit the 24-drive thru seeing as I haven't had dinner yet ;)

lime, yep, when I was typing i knew what i was saying wasnt what i was thinking, i am shocking at trying to get mysefl across on computer! I think what i meant was, people forget that EVERY time you engage in sex, you are risking pregnancy. Just because it is your first time, or you just had your period, or you are on the pill, or you pull out, or you use a condom, does not mean you wont get pregant. People seem not to realise that, my sisters included, they seemed to think that because they took the pill every day they were 100% protected from pregnancy. Well their DS' certainly taught them an important lesson LOL

I wonder how much our decision would change based on our personal beliefs on death and afterlife? Or even our beliefs on where this world is headed?

For me, I am 100% confident that I will be resurrected if I die, and its the same for any babies I have already lost, or may lose in the future. Because of that, the thought of endangering my own life to continue a pregnancy isn't an issue. If I die, I will be resurrected. I also believe 100% that in the future, the earth will be a paradise, and humankind will be perfect. So any abnormalities in this world are really a moot point, because they are only temporary. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it would be a HUGE test if I were actually facing the loss of my life or knowingly continuing an abnormal pregnancy - but that's where my brain stops, and my faith takes over. And even though my death may be the easy part - the hard part being played by my husband and possibly my child - I am confident that DH would not only respect, but agree with my decision. All very easy to type though, and I hope I never have to find out...

Just musing....I hafta say, considering how this thread COULD'VE gone, I think everyone has been very mature and academic in their discussions :clap: :hug:

I struggle deeply with this. :hug: I wish I had a coherent position, but like others here, I too am all over the place.

I believe that a foetus has value and rights. I guess I also believe that the older it is, the more value it has, and so the greater the consideration that should be given to its rights. But I also feel that there are all sorts of life experiences where this balances out so differently, like if a woman has struggled to conceive and/or had lost multiple babies.

I believe that a father should have rights too. But then I contradict myself because I also believe that a woman should have absolute power in the decisions made about her body. So I guess if you are a man, and you have sex with a woman and a pregnancy results, that is the risk, as man, you take.

I believe that a woman’s life is more important than the life of the foetus. But in saying that of course I would die trying to protect or save my children, that is just instinct.

I believe that women shouldn’t be forced to be incubators for babies they do not want. Nor should they be sterilized by force. Although, I can see exceptions to this too, especially where parents and guardians make this heartbreaking decision for mentally incapacitated daughters (I won’t even try to define mental incapacity right now).

I guess above all I recognise that there is always a complex set of circumstances, nature and nurture, that brings about a situation. And that I can never experience for myself what the person in question knows and feels. So because of that I try so hard to always offer compassion and understanding rather then judgement and criticism. But then there does come a time, for me, when I do say, “Actually you’re just a selfish idiot and I don’t like your choices and I don’t like YOU as a person”. How sad! But then I say, well that’s just diversity isn’t it. I value diversity above everything else. The world is an amazing place because no one is just like me. :dunno:

It has been really interesting to read this thread :)

Honestly I don't know if there can ever be a truly definitive line drawn in the sand, because as someone said, we all have our own moral compass and the points on that compass will point in a different direction for all of us, based on our own opinions, values and life experiences. Speaking in very broad terms (and not just about the thread this thread was created for) We can legislate all we want against late term abortions, or abortion full stop. Heck we could even extend this discussion to euthanasia because that is about the deliberate ending of life as well. But as we all know, life doesn't present us with situations in neat little packages with the edges all nicely defined so we can put those situations into little boxes. This is why there is so much grey area concerning these laws and situations and why they are so emotive.

What my limit is about a matter, will be completely different to someone else's limit and I think that is great. That is what makes this world the diverse place that it is. We can't all think the same because there would be no point to being an individual would there? But by the same token, nor can each view be adequately catered for.

My view is that the rights of the woman must come first. While I don't necessarily agree with late term terminations, especially between the 23-24 week mark as more and more prem babies are born at this gestation and survive, I do have the common sense to understand that sometimes they are necessary and I would never prevent a woman from seeking one if that is what was needed at that point in time. That includes reasons for the mothers health and mental wellbeing and also for medical complications with the baby. For all reasons it is no less heartbreaking for those involved.

From a legislation point of view, there does need to be a line in the sand, but that line should be allowed to be moved occasionally because there will be situations present that the law cannot predict. I would hate to think that the law prevented a woman from having a late term termination, only to have her tried on a criminal charge because she took matters into her own hands and ended the pregnancy herself.

Fascinating thread. I have to admit, I didn't read too deeply into the thread this started from, due to my opinion about a woman's rights. And btw, it would be a man's rights too if they had the ability to carry a baby, but they don't so it's irrelevant.

A person's body is their own. As long as they are legally competent, then what they choose to do with it is entirely their business. I may disagree with it and that disagreement may be mild or savage, but it's still none of my business.

One of the areas about abortion I've never understood is the black and white argument about the baby's life. What about the woman's choice not to be pregnant and risk all the health aspects that come with that? Pregnancy can actually be physically and mentally dangerous and has killed. Why should anyone be forced to endure that if they don't want to? A baby cannot grow without its incubator, so by necessity it is dependent on the body and choices of its mother. If she chooses to terminate, then that may be sad, but thats entirely her right.

I also think late term abortions are sad, but they still have to be a right. If a woman would be physically or mentally incapacitated or if she didn't know early enough, then she should be able to make that choice. What's the alternative? Strap her down to birth the baby she doesn't want? Maybe cut her open to do so, leaving her with further mental and physical scars? There are also women who don't want to make that choice but do due to baby's defects. Isn't that her choice?

Another point. Whilst some may think termination is sad, why judge someone else if they don't? If all they feel is relief that the unwanted pregnancy is over and they can get on with their lives? Should I tsk that woman for being unfeeling?

I admit I think people who don't learn their lesson and it keeps repeating really need to be educated and if I heard about it happening again and again, I'd be pretty disgusted, but that's cos I'd think they were just plain stupid. Who wants to put themselves into such a situation again and again - it's surgery, with it's own inherent risks. That's not taking into account the possible psychological damage they're causing themselves. But that's my opinion and if someone does have termination after termination, for whatever reason, that's also none of my business. I know of a couple of situations where that is the case.

I don't know if that's all coherent, but that will do for now. I also can way in about how I think fetacide should be a crime, which will sound completely hypocritical, but by that, I mean someone other than the mother and a doctor she's consented to conduct a termination actually killing an unborn baby (say by another driver or by punching the pregnant woman etc).