Teacher forcefully removing student from class

Im wondering, is a teacher permitted to touch our children, eg as in our case, by grabbing them by the wrist to get them to move out of the room when they are having a melt down?

W is beside himself as he made a fake smoke..the teacher in the special need's room made a big deal of it (which I wouldnt have) and took it from him to were he cracked it. He was having a melt down at the teacher and aid and they decided to take him outside so he could cool down and when he wouldnt go the teacher grabbed him on the arms.

What annoys me is that she ran out to the car to give me the fake smoke but didnt tell me he had had a melt down OR that she had grabbed his wrist to take him outside. I was alright with the smoke thing, I actually backed the teacher but I just cant get it out of my head that she touched him n that way...would a normal child be treated like this?

None of this mind you is written in his communicatoin book either....which will be after tonight so I can have something in writing there.

nah ah no bloody way is that ok! I would be opening a huge can of whoop ass on that teacher Maz, a lot of teachers (from what Ive seen my old high school was linked with a spec ed school) think they can take the "extra measures" with kids who are autistic and suffer from other special needs (didnt mean to say suffer just have lack of vocab prob atm!)

But what im trying to say is no that is not ok and i would not be tolerating it and i hope W is ok, Claires best friend is 13 and autistic and Ive seen some of his meltdowns and as frustrating as they are theres no excuse to physically touch a child to remove him from the class

Yep, I'm pretty sure it's not OK. Definitely sounds like there are better ways to have handled it. Her not telling you about it particularly rings alarm bells - like she's deliberately hiding it.

Nope, definitely not ok! I would be following it up with the Principal.

The fact that she made such a big deal about the smoke by running it out to you, but conveniently 'forgot' to mention physically moving him out of the room either verbally or in his book shows that she knows she shouldn't have done it, at least to me. 'Normal' children can't be touched, I can't see it being any different in W's case. I suppose it depends on if his meltdown was threatening the other kids in the room?

I'd definitely be asking the question tomorrow, not necessarily guns blazing (yet), but just for your info. Then you can make an informed decision as to how to proceed y'know? :hug:

Thanks guys
Ive jsut gotten of the phone with the principal. He and I dont have a very good *cough* track record and itold him im not ringing to be a ***** but out of concern, explained the situation and my concern that the teacher couldnt tell me when she initially came out to the car...he was not happy at all and promised to talk to her about it and get back to me. He also told me he has given his staff strick rules that SNC are NOT to be touched in anyform...hmmmmm thank god for that
On a positive it also mended a bridge between him and me as I told him I cannot do PSG meetings because I get far to emotional at them...which he and asked me if I could please attend the next one :o
One hell of a dame week in this house I tell you...man can we start it again

ETA I also made a point of discussing with the principal how hard we have worked to get him to like that class and I dont want a stupid thing like this setting him back..he agreed fully

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. 'Normal' children can't be touched, I can't see it being any different in W's case. I suppose it depends on if his meltdown was threatening the other kids in the room?

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when I was teaching (in WA and Vic) if a student was at risk of hurting themeselves or others they were removed from the room.
it depends if it was a 'taking their wrist and leading' or 'dragging kicking and screaming' physical removal.
I haven't taught SN but my sister is autistic and would be physically blocked (carer placing themselves between her and others)if having a meltdown. I don't think she was ever physically removed from a class.

W's meltdowns are him crying and telling people no and to leave him alone. The teacher tried saying that he was being rude and unhelpfull to her and the carer.
I totally understand that if he was to hurt someone, eg enother student then I would expect force to be used....but seriously...they know that he is genuinely easy going and if you leave him be then he'll be fine in 5 mins.

He has told me his wrist's are sore....so quiet obviously it was done with some force

There are children that have to be 'manhandled' by teachers at times, but those are very special cases where both parents and carers know that this will be the case.
I don't think the biggest issue is that the teacher touched your son's wrists (though I wouldn't do it unless there was no other way to ensure the safety of the child and other children around them), I think it is the way she dealt with the initial incident and that she didn't tell you about the rest of the incident when she told you about the fake cigarette. I am glad you had a good conversation with the principal. It is his job to make sure his teachers are doing their jobs in the right way and I am pretty sure that teacher is getting a talk that she really doesn't want right now. I hope it doesn't afftect your son's progress!

i hope it gets sorted out, and she dosent twist it arround to sound better for herself.i cant see that big of a deal in making a fake smoke, my kids pretend to smoke as theyve seen my mum smoke every time they see her, i dont like it, i just take it off them and tell them its yuck and all that, making a big deal out of it isnt the best way to get them to stop doing it, most the time it indirectly encourages it.
i hope that after today she has more respect for you and your son. id also be getting her to make it up to your son so he dosent feel traumatised by it and decide to hate the class.

Melanie - Dont get me wrong I am peeved that she touched him that way..but yes I agree with you, she made the big who ha of walking all the way out to my car to tell me about the smoke but didnt give me the heads up that he had had a melt down or that she had to grab him to take him out.

When I rang she was shocked adn i said look im giving you the heads up W told me you grabbed him on the wrists and now he doesnt want to come to class tomorrow, her answer was thats fine :o...hmmmm something else i need to write in his communication book. At the time I was alright with it cause she was cutting me off and apologising flat out if she had 'upset' him by doing it...hmmmm adn then said she would apologise to him tomorrow for it.

Sarah - kn ow what i said tohim when he got to the car.....Have you got a light for me cause Ive got this big arse smoke that need's smoking... the teacher informed me that she told him I wouldnt be happy with it and that she needed to get rid of it. I dont like the teacher using me as a scap goat and to think about it now, she should off let me deal with the situation.

We as parents trust these people with our children for 6 hours a day.....it does not give them the right, even if they are having a bad day to take physical discapline into their hands. God, if we as parents smack our children and a teacher finds out DOC's get's called.


you know, im goign to have to cut and paste everything Ive writen down here so I remember lol

I have worked with SN a few times...
We were able to remove children from the classroom IF they were a danger to themselves or others.. one little boy was trying to throw his chair... so WAS taken out kicking and screaming... I was there and to be honest, there was no reasoning with him, and would of definatly harmed others... explaining to a parent their children were hurt because we "let" a another child hurt them is just as awlful as dealing with a screaming angry autistic child who cannot understand or calm easily...:cry::cry:

But it certainly doesnt sound like little W was in need of "restraining"!!! I too would be quite pi$$ed off babe... there is no need to touch, or remove a child unless there is immediate danger to anyone. Poor W, she shouldnt of done it, and it probably scared him and made him harder to calm down ... she definatly needs a talking too, esp if she will have regular contact with W... big hugs babe... xoxoxo

She was shocked???? said that was fine?????? Definitely not fine. It is never fine if a student doesn't want to come to your class because you have hurt/ scared them. Especially a special needs student. She should be offering to have mediation to sort it out ASAP.
You posted about the sore wrists and his normal tantrums while I was writing my previous post. Doesn't sound like she would have had any reason to handle him at all, let alone to an extent where he is complaining about sore wrists!

I know that here in WA, you are under no circumstances allowed to lay a hand on a student. DH being a teacher, he's told me all kinds of stories bout it.
I remember when I was in school, in year 2 (1992) we had a kid smacked in class and dragged out - That teacher got into so much trouble it wasn't funny

Correct me if im wrong but aren't teachers in that sort of classes supposed to have training and know how to talk to students like your son, instead of snatching or taking the item off him but talking to them in a way that doesnt upset them but saying what he did was a bit silly. IMO she was too harsh so of course he will get upset and have a meltdown and instead of physically touching him shouldn't she know how to calm him down or maybe just ring you straight away.

She doesn't sound like a very good teacher if she ran out and 'dobbed' on him when you were in the carpark its as if she was covering herself. And for her to be fine with one of her students not returning doesn't show she really cares and he needs a teacher that cares.

i'm so sorry your son had to go through that and i hope he is ok.

I am usually the first one to stick up for teachers, being that I know how hard it is being on the otherside of the story, however this is just wrong in so so so many ways! I had a pretty full on kid in my class this year, and when he got going into one of his rages I would just remove the rest of the class and myself for safety and wait for someone from admin to come and assist. No way I would ever ever put my hands on a student, there is a whole code of ethics that teachers are bound by, and we have it drilled into us over and over and over, to never put yourself in that sort of situation, because it is something that you could loose your job over.
I am also suprised about her not picking her battles, I mean really if the worst he was doing was rolling up some paper to make a cigarette, then it is something so easily dealt with, with a little bit of distraction, nothing something to cause a huge scene over.

Stick to your guns on this one, like you say, you trust your sone in her care 6 hours a day 5 days a week. I personally would be devestated if a child didn't want to come to my class because of something I have said or done, I can't believe her reply about him not wanting to come to school.

:hug: Just thinking, maybe she said 'that's fine', as in 'that's okay, whatever works for him'? If she feels like she could have handled the situation better, she probably doesn't feel she's in a position to push for him to return straight away if he's upset. And if she knows she was unwise, she might just be feeling like a day of space and then a fresh start next week might work - I'm not saying it's ideal if the teacher needs space - but she's not the expert with all the right tricks you have up your sleeve, you're the pro when it comes to W. She's only had him for school hours for the year, and I guess she feels out of her depth in some circumstances, not having the skills you do from raising him.

All the best with the meeting. Would it help to jot down your points so you can stay focussed for the meeting? That's what I do if I know I'm discussing tricky issues so I don't ramble and rant. :lol:

wow i was about to say that if they child is endangering the other students then the teacher can physically remove them but Dark Dreamer has just said they cant.I would love to know what they can and cant do as i to have had my son dragged kicking and screaming from a class,but was only kicking and screaming due to the physical removal.

I to think she over reacted to start with its a normal child thing to do so should have been delt with accordingly

I have a link to what a teacher can an cant do, but it may differ with the different department of education across different states.

I'll just go and find it.

Hey Maz - as a teacher who has a number of SNC in my classes, one of the only reasons that I can think of for her to 'remove' him like that is if one of the other kids were about to react and she was being proactive. BUT in saying that, a teacher who has had to step out of boundaries by touching a child normally speaks to or emails a superior immediately to let them know in case any problems arise from it. I hope that things can get sorted out quickly for W and things settle down for you xxxx

Okay this is a direct quote from Allegations against Employees in the Area of Child Protection that all NSW schools under the department of education have to follow.

You can read the entire policy at https://www.det.nsw.edu.au/detresour...GSPuJAJdZT.pdf

From page 13....

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Assault against a child or young person
Using common law principles, assault in this context must include all three of the following elements:
• it is an act committed on or towards a child or young person,
and
• it involves either the application of force to a child or young person or an act that causes a child or young person to think that immediate force will be used upon them,
and
• it is either hostile or reckless (a reckless act is one where the person foresees the likelihood of inflicting injury or fear, and ignores the risk).

Actual physical harm does not have to occur in order for an assault to have taken place, i.e. the child or young person does not have to be injured.

Physical contact which is an inevitable part of everyday life does not amount to assault. For example, there may be occasions where it is appropriate to intervene in order to protect students. Reasonable action, in these circumstances, would not be deemed to be assault.

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And from page 14....

:

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Note. Examples of conduct that would not constitute reportable conduct include touching a child in order to attract a child’s attention, to guide a child or to comfort a distressed child; a school teacher raising their voice in order to attract attention or to restore order in the classroom; and conduct that is established to be accidental.

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I hope the above gives some insight into what is regarded as acceptable and not.

As a teacher, I have had to had physical contact with a student at one time or another however it has always been in a way to make the child feel safe, eg. a kindy child was extremely upset after losing all their friends at lunchtime and I gave her a cuddle as she was just heartbroken and it made her feel better. On a not so nice occasion, in fact a darn right scary situation, I had to chase a child with down syndrome from my class and absolutely pull her back as she had one leg and most of her body over the fence and was going to run onto the road and get hit by a car. I grabbed onto her and pulled her back and I never expected to have to have that sort of physical contact with a child. It was scary but I did what I would want anyone to do if my child was about to run on the road as I had to look out for her safety.

In W's case, I think she acted inappropriately if the situation had not escellated to that of needing required force. It is her duty to provide a safe environment for each chil in her class. I feel that she has not done that in this case so it is good the Principal is going to pull her up on this. You definitely did the right hting by going to him.

hang on she had a carer there too?
now I can understand her physically removing him if he were a threat to other students but if there's TWO adults there surely there's no way that the situation could have escalated to that point?
and if anyone were being physical, surely that would be the carers call?
poor little man being scared to go back to class :(

Agreed with Ali that there are times with some kids, SN or not, where there is no choice, particularly if they are going to injure themselves, the teacher or other kids. First option is to remove the grade but there are always exceptions. In this case though I agree it seems extremely over the top and the fact that she showed you the smoke, rather than just telling you in general that she needed to discuss an incident was terrible and if she had the aide there as well, you have to question why things went the way they did. :(

I don't know about mainstream classrooms, but DH is a special needs teacher and he would LOVE to have a student where the biggest problem in a day was a fake smoke :) The teacher could have made it a learning activity ''Awesome smoke, but smoking isn't very healthy - what else can you make?'' or even got into a discussion about smoking and cancer risks and turned it into an internet activity. W sounds really creative and I would have been upset if someone took something off me that I'd made as well. His reaction was appropriate to the situation, hers - not so much. I can't believe the teacher turned a non-issue into an issue.

In terms of the physical side, DH can only remove children if they're about to seriously injure themselves or someone else. Generally, you just get the other kids out of the class and let the kid having the meltdown go for it in the empty classroom with the aide. No need for force.

I spoke to the carer today....she didnt even know what had gone on....and when I told her that she came to the car and only told me about the smoke the she rolle dher eyes and said OMG I thought she was coming to tell you about the melt down.

I confronted the teacher in a calm tone, evil eyes were given mind you and asked why she hadnt told me at the car....she off loaded some crap and then I said why didnt you let him be as i have told carers in the past when he loses it that is what is to be done and she said he was kicking and hitting out at them. :o she also said that she took him lightly by the wrists to guide him out...*cough* bullpoo *cough*
I loudly said come on boys were going home now and left her standing there.
She quiet obviously got into trouble because we went and got W bag from class and was all la de da in my face...nope not happy and it doesnt cut it.
Ive told J man and he is fuming.....and PSG meeting is next wednesday.....hahahahhaa they thought I was bad...they aint seen nothing of the J man yet :rofl:

Good on you Maz. Your son has beautiful parents going to fight forhimbecause he damn well deserves it. The more I read of this the more angry I feel. What is up with this teacher??

To handle any child in that way (right from the start even, making a huge issue out of a small issue) is poor teaching and disrepectful... to handle a child on the spectrum like that is just outrageous. Maybe she needs a break or something because it doesn't sound like she's coping well at the moment.

It's one thing to say, I don't know how to cope with this, I haven't been trained or I can't handle this today. It's another thing to lie and cover her butt. It shouldn't be her against the children/parents. If she doesn't know how to handle a child having a meltdown then she needs to ask for help/training.

btw - why is the fake smoke significant? I know I'm ancient, but I'm pretty sure when I was 8 I used to pretend I was smoking HB pencils. I don't remember anyone batting an eyelid. Was it because it was in class and he was supposed to be doing something else? In which case telling him to put it down and get on with the task wouldn't have been too hard? Or was it because smoking is evil and playing pretend is just an insidious start down the dangerous road to smokes and drugs and all other kinds of anti-social behaviour? Isn't pretend allowed anymore?

I honestly don't know these things, so that's why I'm asking.

Meow - what annoys me even more is that she has a son on the spectrum herself.....hmmm im now wondering if perhaps thats the problem...she's realyl dealing with 'it' 24/7..:think: something to write down for J man to ask on wednesday

Tash - in all honesty I was a little happy becuase all he focesses on normally is movie and mario stuff..and yes I did the same tihng, I think we all did. I totally understand taht she is a teacher and has rules but she cant use me in those rules and there was no reason for her to do what she did especially knowing he's been off tap for the last few weeks.
I'll be letting it be known im not happy with not going to the class anymore AND making sure she doesnt get a christmas pressy from him! She can watch when the carer gets a big box of cadbury roses!