Very fustrated bub at breast

Hi Ladies,
I'm in need of some advice. Bubs is about one week old now and she was BF really well for the last 2 days, always latching on perfectly and sucking really well. But since last night, she has started to not to latch on at all, only sucking very weakly then turning her head left and right then crying or latching on for 1-2 sucks then taking herself off. I just can't get her to have a proper feed. Then she wouldn't settle to go to sleep coz she's rooting around for a feed. I've had to hand express some milk to feed her fom the bottle then she starts to settle down. I know it's no good to feed from the bottle to early but I really don't know what else to do. Some feeds she will only latch onto the right side and not the left. What can I do?

Hi Caixin - congratulations on the birth of your boxing day bubba :) Breastfeeding troubles can be really frustrating but there are probably a few things that you could try. Maybe your baby isn't coping well with the let down and that's why she is pulling off? You could try expressing a little before the feed so that she has an easier job. Can you try a different hold position with her? I would also try stripping down from waist up and having her naked and letting her try and find your nipple instead of you trying to guide her to the breast. Hang in there, you are doing a great job.

Congratulations on your little one Caixin. The early days are really confusing but it does get easier.

There are a few things that could be going on here. One of the common things at that age is a fast flow which can distress the baby at the breast. Some mums find that expressing a bit (either by hand or with a pump) before each feed can help - usually until you get the first big ejection of milk, and then try attaching her. Feeding so that gravity slows the flow can help - either in a reclined position, or lying on your back with baby across your chest (if you try this position it's best to sit up before the end of the feed though to help the breast to drain).

Some mums find baby led attachment works well also - there is information and demonstrations here - http://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/bfinfo/bla.html and http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/video/bn3clip.html.

If your breasts are really hard and this is making it hard for you little girl to attach, try pushing in around your nipple with your fingers for about 2 minutes - that should soften it enough to make it easier for her to attach.

If you would like more ideas or more information about these ideas, you can talk to a friendly counsellor at the ABA 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - just call 1800 mum 2 mum (1800 686 2 686, drop the last 6 for VOIP). It's a toll-free call and you don't have to be a member. They are all mums themselves and know all too well how hard it is with a new baby.

I hope things get easier for you soon hun :hug:

Thanks Mantaray and Starangelk for the advice. Will try those tips and see if they help. Sometimes when she finds the nipple herself she latches on such that it hurts so she must be only sucking on the nipple. It's just really heart breaking to see her so frustrated and keep crying when she can't get milk from the breast then she's all happy once she starts drinking from the bottle.
I've called the MW at the hospital and they've also worked out how much EBM she needs to have. So I'll try to get her latch on each time but if it doesn't work I might eventually still offer her the bottle so she gets something to drink. Got the maternal child nurse coming on Tues, too bad tmr is a public holiday!

These longs weekends without medical services readily available are really hard for new mums :hug:

Babies usually attach better when they are calm too. If she's crying, try to calm her a bit before attaching - maybe by letting her suck your finger if that helps. Looking for the early hunger signs can help too - bobbing head, sucking fist etc, rather than waiting until she is crying with hunger. If she sleeps right up to waking for a feed it makes it hard but calming her before attaching might help here.

Mantaray: She does indeed attach better when she's calm but sometimes if we feed her too early just when she's starting to mouth and turn her head she falls back to sleep almost immediately once she's on then comes off the breast. If we wait till she's crying then she doesn't feed very well either. So I'm till trying to find that balance.
I've tried to express before feeding and it seems to help for the right breast as she attached well this afternoon on the right but still refuses the left. Makes it hard for me to judge how much she's had as she would only drink about 10 ml of the EBM that I offer her after. She's often too worked up for me to try the baby led attachment but will try to if I get the opportunity. Babies can be so hard to read, not coming with an instruction manual!

Hey hun,
Just keep persevering, BF for me has only just started to get easier in the past cpl days & Sienna is 3 weeks. I had these probs around 1 week too when my milk supply was coming in & my boobs were really full, they felt really hard, she couldn't attach properly. Massaging the areola and expressing a little before a feed helps and also heat packs on the breasts before a feed helped too.
Also Sienna still pulls off alot, I think my letdown is quite full on and she can't keep up so could it be this?
Can you call the ABA or a lactation consultant?

You're trying all the right things hun. Have you tried just putting her between your breasts while you're in a reclined position just as she's waking up and seeing what she does then?

The best way to tell if she's getting enough milk is to look at what's coming out rather than what's going in. Many mums find it reassuring to use the nappies as a guide. 5 or more heavily wet nappies in 24 hours as well as 2 or more runny or soft poo-ey nappies in 24 hours are the best sign of enough milk. Babies can need anywhere between 500ml and 1000ml in 24 hours so even if you knew how much she was drinking it wouldn't really tell you if it's the right amount. I'm guessing the midwives probably gave you a figure of about 750ml which is about average but not going to be true for all babies. Also, lots of smaller feeds are usually better for both baby and your supply then a few larger ones. It is surprising for lots of mums to find out that babies usually need to feed at least 8 times in 24 hours at that age, and often even more than 12 times!!

It is very stressful in the early days trusting that they are getting enough to drink, but as she continues to grow and do well it is easier to relax. It might not seem like it now, but not too far down the track you'll find breastfeeding second nature!!

you're going great guns, caixin.

I second the comment about expressing a little first, to make sure that it's coming straight out once she starts feeding, and the comment about getting in early with feeds, so she isn't too hungry or distressed when she's trying to feed.

other thoughts:-

1. are you alternating which boob she feeds from first? this will help her get used to both positions, attaching well both sides, and will help your bbs to both produce well :)

2. are you very full? it can be harder for bub to attach if you're too engorged ... expressing a bit off first might help there, too :)

3. obvious I know, but is she too hot? it's been a couple of stinkers, and if she's too hot, it might be hard for her to concentrate.

GL!

We've just had a terrible 24 hrs with BF. My boobs have gone all soft and are not filling up like they used to after a feed. I've been expressing after every attempted feed if she doesn't feed from the breast to store milk for the next feed. She's drinking about 70ml each feed and feeding about 6-8 times a day. I think initially it could have been that my breast were too full for her to attach properly but now they are all soft and floppy she still doesn't seem to want to attach properly. She was getting a little low on the wet nappies, only about 4 wet ones in the last 24 hrs so I've had to supplement one feed with formula as she kept crying and crying as she was hungry.
She's had a preference for the right boob initially but now she doesn't attach onto the right either. When she does attach she doesn't do it properly so I get very sore nipples that are all flattened. This morning I had a huge scare as I could only get 40 ml from both breasts with the pump when I can usually get at least 80ml. Then the next time the pump wouldn't even work and I had to hand express. The ABA helpline seems to be engaged each time I try to call so I called the MCN help line. They've asked me to call the hospital which I did and I've been booked into a lactation clinic tmr from 8.30-2.30. I really hope I can sort the issues out. Had a emotional meltdown this morning but feeling better now that I've got help arranged for tmr.
Thanks girls for all the support, you girls have been great.

Caixin, I am so glad you called and made an appointment - it will be so helpful. Try not to worry too much about the amount you are able to express because it is in no way a reflection of the amount of milk in your breasts. Expressing is hard and your baby can always get more milk than the pump can. You are having a rough time and that would def be effecting your expressing ability. Please come back and tell us how you go tomorrow. Sending you a big internet hug.

:grouphug:

hope it goes well, hun

Good luck tomorrow.

That sounds so stressful. Good on you for calling for help hun :hug:

The first thing I'd try is to offer feeds more often. 8 - 12 times in 24 hours, or even more often, is "normal" for babies at that age. This will also be best for maintaining your supply. You might need to wake her to do this - sometimes unfortunately that's necessary at first.

Also, try not to worry about your supply. Soft breasts are actually normal when breastfeeding - it's the full feeling that you get in the early days that is not "normal" - that is what happens when you are producing too much milk. Ordinarily you will not feel full between feeds.

With the pump, check that all the parts are together properly, especially the little white circle - if that's not on properly it just won't work at all. Hiring a hospital grade pump for a little while might be an idea if you are going to be doing lots of expressing. It makes a huge difference. I recommend the ABA for pump hire - members get a 50% discount and the membership is so worth it, plus you get all the counselling you need free with each pump hire!

The nappy count dropping a bit is a concern, although it depends on the dirty nappies too. How are they going? Hopefully the appointment at the clinic will help. This is probably related to attachment, it sounds like that is still an issue for you. Are you still trying Baby Led Attachment? I know you are finding it hard with a sleepy baby (contrary to popular belief these babies are usually harder work than the ones that don't sleep well in the early days), but it is better to feed when she's calm even if it is hard to keep her awake. Lots of foot tickling and dabbing with a damp flannel can help. Do you take her clothes off to feed? That can help too. Sometimes with these sleepy bubs a feed can take a lot time as you have to keep wakign them up constantly.

PS The ABA helpline is busiest between 10am and 6pm. Trying outside these times should give you a better chance of getting through.

All the best hun.

Hi ladies thanks for so much support!
I went for the lactation clinic today and it was great! Feel so much better now that we've got a plan to work on. Lo and behold the first time we tried to attach on the left side at the clinic she did it perfectly. Made such a liar out of me! But luckily she didn't the second time so we worked on my attachment. I realized that I was pushing bub onto the breast but going slightly over and around the nipple so she wasn't attaching properly an getting frustrated. We're also going to express after each feed so bub can have full breasts to feed on. I was expressing every 2 hrs whereas bub was feeding every 3-4 hrs so sometimes she was getting very little milk from the breasts. I was also tentative about waking bub up to feed esp when she sleeps so well but now we're going to wake her up at least every 4 hrs to feed. She was getting lots of cuddles between each feed from the family gang that I've got here at the moment so that would tend to keep her awake for longer than required and hence making it a longer time in between start of feeds.
I'm still expressing only about 10 ml from the left side and 30ml from the right side after each feed but at least I know that bub is feeding from the breast properly (really happy about that). So am working hard to building my supply up and in the meantime still supplementing her with EBM. The nappy counts are doing much better now that we are supplementing each feed so that makes me happy. The other thing we figured out is that she gets too hot with feeding coz both my mum and MIL are paranoid about her and me getting cold but forget that when our bodies are close together during a feed it keeps us warm. So on really warm days we are going to strip down and just wrap with a muslin cloth to feed. I've tried the baby led attachment but bub gets annoyed very easily so hasn't work as well but we did try feeding with both of us stripped down and that worked well.
Just waiting for my supply to build up on the left, also started taking fenugreek. I know it takes time but wished it could happen faster.

Thats great Caixin :D

I'm so glad that things are going better already.

Just a quick update. We're doing much better at the BF front. My supply has started to kick in and we've gone 2 days without need for EBM at all and she's still producing good amount of wet nappies (too many according to DH, he's shocked at how many nappies she goes through). I've managed to stop expressing except for once daily so I can build up a little store of EBM in the freezer. I found one big thing that really made a difference to my milk supply is sleep. After every nap my breasts would feel so much fuller so they must be doing some production while I'm sleeping. She's still wanting to feed every 2-3 hours but at least she latching on well now. Much happier bub = much happier mum. :)
Thank you again for all the advice and support. Really means a lot to me.

So pleased to hear this Caixin

That's fantastic news hun. I am so pleased to hear that things are going so much better. Well done, you are doing an awesome job.

wooooooooooot!!
:dance:

that's such excellent news, lovely :D

wow reading this has given me a little bit of advice to try

my bub is 3wks old and wants to constantly eat, ive just expressed and only got 75mls after about 20 or so mins which to me doesnt seem alot.....Maybe i should try and sleep alot more too then i might have more of a supply for my little man but its abit hard with a older one running around!

Mizqtie, 75ml is an awesome amount!!! Can I ask, are you expressing for a particular reason?

Caixin, that's fantastic news, well done you :D

Janie- I expressed tonight to see how much milk i am getting and bottle feed it to my little boy to see how much milk he is drinking to see if he gets satisifed or not as every hour or so (sometimes shorter) he is waking for a feed, its getting hard as im not getting anything done through the day and my older boy is getting frustrated cause all im ever doing is feeding his little brother
Im at my wits end i dont know whether my milk is satisfying him or not im really confused to be honest

Hun, I'm sorry I can't reply right now, but I suggest giving the ABA helpline a call 1800 MUM2MUM. As Manta said, all the counsellors are mums themselves, and are trained to help breastfeeding mums. Good luck, I'll check in on you tomorrow.

Mizqtie, it can be confusing when we are answering two people in the same thread. You might find it easier to start your own thread then we can reply to you without the answers getting lost. I agree that 75ml is a lot but expressing all the time shouldn't be necessary as is probably going to leave you with an oversupply of milk. I really suggest you ring 1800 mum 2 mum today and talk through what it is happening. They can give you some ideas about what might be happening and some suggestions. As for your milk being enough, what comes out is more helpful than what goes in. Sure, with a bottle you can see the amount they are drinking, but you still don't know how much they need. The nappies tell a better story - 5 or more heavily wet disposable or 6-8 very wet cloth nappies and 2 or more runny or soft poos in 24 hours are a great sign that your baby is getting enough milk.